So, unlike bags of holding Null Spaces and hold people. The party just used the 10 min window for air and one player with a jetpack to avoid a series of difficult traversal checks in Dead Suns 3.
The question came up though, could your own suit sustain you with air as per amour rules once the 10 mins is up? Can characters that don’t need to breathe be kept in one indefinitely?
Because if so, my Hellknight concept has a new temporary holding cell for transporting prisoners back to face “justice”
We've been discussing this too. Technically, IIRC, the book only says you can't access another portal inside a NSC so you actually could hide an army in your arm. Just put a few people inside one Mark 2, each having their own mark 2 with 2 people etc. Suddenly a strike team can infiltrate a palace with just one person with insane stealth :P
However, I ruled (as GM) that being in the confines of such space for any amount of time requires will saving throws which get harder every minute since psychologically the person would be trapped in nothingness unless sedated. This at least limits such use and would pretty much prevent any transport of "bad guys" from good characters who would not want to torture the prisoner.
It works, with either the armor or a life bubble so... starfinder nesting dollls?
Ummm...it was not uncommon to transport people in Bags of Holding using something to provide air, like of bottle of air.
Null Space Chamber allows for the same thing.
Ghost Operative + high Stealth skill + party members in null space = one room dungeons consisting of only the critical encounter room.
I had to learn to evolve "dungeon" design to account for this.
If the dungeon was such that one character could sneak by everything in the first place, without encountering any other issues along the way the dungeon probably needs to be redesigned.
Heck, closed doors with people in the room will stop a stealthy character. You can't behind nothing, and invisibility only gets you so far. Plenty of things can see invisibility.
This really opens up a lot of possibilities for infiltration (the Party hide in a Null Space Generator, the "Face" takes the NSG and talks his way through (or the Ghost sneaks it's way through).
When in trouble he simply open the NSG and X Armed and ready Adventurers are ready…
I'm mostly wondering if a 40 bulk Huge (15'x15'x15') Flight Frame power armor fits in a 9'x9'x9' null space chamber. I mean, it can hold 50 bulk, but the armor's dimensions are weird. Maybe the thing's wings retract when not in use?
If it fits, it could be a good way to avoid the brutal power consumption problem (though Armory supposedly has other options to fix that): just carry your power armor around and dump it out when you need air support.
I mean, it's not like it needs the cockpit space while it's in there.
The big problem is that if you invested in a flight frame over a force pack you probably want to use it for most encounters, and getting out the armour and climbing into it takes a while.
There's a quick-entry/exit armor upgrade for that.
If the dungeon was such that one character could sneak by everything in the first place, without encountering any other issues along the way the dungeon probably needs to be redesigned.
Heck, closed doors with people in the room will stop a stealthy character. You can't behind nothing, and invisibility only gets you so far. Plenty of things can see invisibility.
Ouch, bud, but in fairness, I only told part of the story.
The PCs were infiltrating a capital ship during a mass starship combat that was crewed by walking worm colonies. Mindless servant slaves constituted a majority of the guards in the various rooms, many doors were inoperable, and I included air vents, maintenance corridors, and secret passages for the PCs to utilize as options should they want to overcome some of the challenges without violence. The ghost operative is also a ysoki, which is useful when slipping through small, tight spaces. There was a security system, but the engineer disabled it with remote hacks each time the ysoki puked him out, as the null space chamber was in the ysoki's cheek pouch. These kinds of options, a ghost operative with a cloaking field and phase shift escape, and additional player ingenuity led to them overcoming all but the final two encounters. It was kind of a perfect storm, but the way I look at it, if this is how the players want to play, then I should provide the options. Plus, it made them feel smart and good.
In the design of this particular "dungeon" there were no side objectives other than taking out the admiral and utilizing the bridge computer to send a transmission to allied ships. The PCs were also in a race against time, which means their choices made sense.
Ways to avoid skippable dungeons like this would be to include side objectives and other features to challenge the abilities of the PCs, which I've utilized before and after my skipped dungeon, but one of the many fun things about Starfinder is that it challenges us longtime fantasy GMs to think and design in ways that sci-fi encourages.
It sounds like you set things up to intentionally allow them to bypass encounters.
You can either set them up to bypass, or set them up so they can't easily do so, but you can't do both.
And I wasn't trying to be rude, sorry if it came off that way. But you seemed to be saying the issue of null space bags + operative was a problem that you only had the blunt tool solution of turning "dungeons" into single room adventures with only one unavoidable combat.
If people actively do this, do others require the will saves or think about the characters sanity when floting in nothingness, with no quarantee of ever getting out? For example if the wearer is killed by a monster that does not loot. Or even if someone loots, he probably checks the NSC's inventory display and does not take the people out without precautions.
Also, keep in mind that you probably have the equivalent of a cell phone on your person, including programs that are equivalent to whatever your favorite game apps are to keep you entertained.
It sounds like you set things up to intentionally allow them to bypass encounters.
You can either set them up to bypass, or set them up so they can't easily do so, but you can't do both.
And I wasn't trying to be rude, sorry if it came off that way. But you seemed to be saying the issue of null space bags + operative was a problem that you only had the blunt tool solution of turning "dungeons" into single room adventures with only one unavoidable combat.
Going back to Pathfinder and previous games dungeon design, I like providing secret passages, shortcuts, and other alternate paths. I like rooms with multiple exits, hallways, chutes, vents, portals, etc.. For each scenario my goal is to create at least three ways to explore and problem solve. The beauty of Starfinder, and perhaps other sci-fi games, is that it provides abilities/technology not typically found in fantasy rpgs that allow for creative ways to overcome challenges. It rarely happens, but if my players want to bypass everything, then so be it. Whatever makes them feel good and come back for more is fine in my book.
Like with other powerful combos in the game, we should take into consideration the options that become available to a ysoki ghost operative with high stealth and a null space chamber loaded with mechanics and mystics, or, in other words, specific combos like this can lead to a higher probability of players choosing a path of least resistance. It's not a problem, but it's something to take into account when designing our dungeons.
It sounds like you set things up to intentionally allow them to bypass encounters.
You can either set them up to bypass, or set them up so they can't easily do so, but you can't do both.
And I wasn't trying to be rude, sorry if it came off that way. But you seemed to be saying the issue of null space bags + operative was a problem that you only had the blunt tool solution of turning "dungeons" into single room adventures with only one unavoidable combat.
Going back to Pathfinder and previous games dungeon design, I like providing secret passages, shortcuts, and other alternate paths. I like rooms with multiple exits, hallways, chutes, vents, portals, etc.. For each scenario my goal is to create at least three ways to explore and problem solve. The beauty of Starfinder, and perhaps other sci-fi games, is that it provides abilities/technology not typically found in fantasy rpgs that allow for creative ways to overcome challenges. It rarely happens, but if my players want to bypass everything, then so be it. Whatever makes them feel good and come back for more is fine in my book.
Like with other powerful combos in the game, we should take into consideration the options that become available to a ysoki ghost operative with high stealth and a null space chamber loaded with mechanics and mystics, or, in other words, specific combos like this can lead to a higher probability of players choosing a path of least resistance. It's not a problem, but it's something to take into account when designing our dungeons.
Funnily enough, my groups soldier would probably storm off kick down the door of the first room and start shooting things while the clever person is 1/10th of the way through explaining their plan to sneak people past in a null-space chamber.
The downside to sneaking through a whole dungeon is the lack of XP. As an odd trick it ain’t too bad, but even if you want to reward the party for stealth, only the operative did anything, so only they should get any.
Missing that, let them get to the boss, jump out, and have him hit the alarm. A dungeon’s worth of enemies at once soon puts people off. And god help the party is someone manages to get a command spell off on that operative, because the contents of that null space is about to go out an airlock.
It’s a good small use idea, and a good prison, but repeat use can easily be DM’d around.
Side question: would a null space portal not open in the drift? Planar shiz seems to be a no no in the realm of Triune.
The downside to sneaking through a whole dungeon is the lack of XP. As an odd trick it ain’t too bad, but even if you want to reward the party for stealth, only the operative did anything, so only they should get any.
Missing that, let them get to the boss, jump out, and have him hit the alarm. A dungeon’s worth of enemies at once soon puts people off. And god help the party is someone manages to get a command spell off on that operative, because the contents of that null space is about to go out an airlock.
It’s a good small use idea, and a good prison, but repeat use can easily be DM’d around.
The lack of XP isn't actually a thing, unless your GM just wants to force the issue as an antagonistic jerk.
This is my personal opinion but I think a significant enough amount of people run games this way so it's worth mentioning: The party always stays the same level. No one gets individual XP rewards. Alternatively, the party levels by plot and XP doesn't even exist. Worse case scenario the party has to run more simple missions of the type so the GM can feel justified in allowing them to level up or reach the required XP to advance to the next stage of the campaign. Ultimately, the GM is responsible for setting up a situation where one person can use stealth to bypass 95% of the dungeon. That's a failing of the GM, and if that GM chooses to punish the players for that action, it would be another failing of the GM.
Not to mention, bypassing encounters is still worth XP. PCs should *never* be penalized for using intelligent tactics to bypass a fight. After all, does only the wizard get XP if he kills an enemy with a single spell before anyone otherwise acts? Does only the cleric get XP if she wipes a room of undead herself? Does only the fighter get XP if he challenges an enemy leader to a duel of honor, to force their side to surrender, and wins?
Well, if the rest of the party is hidden inside another dimension while any of this happens, I might argue the case.
Otherwise, a level 10 character can carry a party of level 1 characters inside his pocket, kill a couple of CR appropriate monsters, and then pop out of his pocket dimension a level 5 party.
Not to mention, bypassing encounters is still worth XP. PCs should *never* be penalized for using intelligent tactics to bypass a fight. After all, does only the wizard get XP if he kills an enemy with a single spell before anyone otherwise acts? Does only the cleric get XP if she wipes a room of undead herself? Does only the fighter get XP if he challenges an enemy leader to a duel of honor, to force their side to surrender, and wins?
Normally I would agree, but as the others are risking absolutely nothing in the other world, what are they gaining as experience? It would literally be the same as if you left them at home.
Individuals off an adventure alone would earn XP separately, and for all intents are purposes that’s what’s happening if you skip a whole dungeon.
The examples you give have the party present, not in a pocket dimension devoid of senses. Intelligent tactics is not the same as cheesing the system through a loop hole.
The first time they try it or if the original quoted senerio had an Xp reward I would be inclined to give it, but by encouraging the idea be repeated again and again, you make for very little roleplaying experience. Most of your players beyond contact or interaction, with a significant chance of TPK if the stealthed PC gets caught unaware? Hardly sounds like fun for everyone else.
Why would you ever run a game with 1 level 10 and 9 level 1s? In that situation the players are absolutely right to hide in the null space chamber and game the system because that situation is utterly unfair on them.
Why would you ever run a game with 1 level 10 and 9 level 1s? In that situation the players are absolutely right to hide in the null space chamber and game the system because that situation is utterly unfair on them.
Hm, I never mentioned the size of the level 1 party. No idea where you got that 9 from.
Because when characters die sometimes GMs demand the new character start at level 1.
Because when characters die sometimes GMs demand the new character start at level 1.
GM's do that? In a party of level 10s? Why do they expect the level 1 player to stay engaged? I mean, sure some RP focused players could pull that off, but it seems like a tall order for your average player.
Also, if characters aren't contributing to the encounter (which by definition, a level 1 would rarely be able to contribute to an encounter designed for level 10s), and if the GM only awards XP based on contribution to the party's success, how does the level 1 gain XP in such a group?
Its just such an alien concept to me.
I'm curious if you've ever seen a GM actually do that (have players with a 9 level difference in the same party in a d20 system)? And if they did, did it turn out well?
GM's do that? In a party of level 10s? Why do they expect the level 1 player to stay engaged? I mean, sure some RP focused players could pull that off, but it seems like a tall order for your average player.
It's an old school way of dealing with PC death.
They hang waaaaaaay in the back, farming 20s on their long ranged attacks or offering pitiful buffs. After a bunch of fights the enormous XP reward allows them to pick the pace somewhat.
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Ah yes the old school, "Screw you, you suck for dying" approach, also known as "I want to punish you!"
In the old days, PCs were expected to hire henchmen whose job it was to walk in front of the party and spring traps, or provide archery support or whatnot, and when (not if) a PC died, they could just take over one of the followers.
This was so important that all classes who got to level 9 or so automatically got a base and a randomized number of NPCs who were vassals (fighters got a keep with warriors, magic-users got a tower with students, clerics got a temple with priests, thieves got a thieves' guild, and rangers got randomized set of awesome forest monsters like treants and dryads).
So it was still a huge pain to die, but you wouldn't necessarily miss out on the action, since you could just play the squire who picks up his boss's dropped +3 vorpal longsword and still pulls some weight.
These were also the days when the GM was basically expected to murder the PCs with some regularity, because 15% of the encounters were patently too difficult for their level, and if they didn't flee, they would die.
My last D&D DM had a policy where PCs who died and were raised lost a level (which was basically RAW), and people who brought in a new character came in two levels under the party average, to encourage people not to abandon their established PCs just because they died. He also didn't give XP to players who missed a session. This had the unfortunate side effect of stagnating the party's level for two years at 9th or 10th level, because EVERYBODY died at least a couple times, and new PCs served to lower the party's average level, which lowered the average level even further for other new PCs.
Needless to say, when I was running Gamma World later, I just had everyone stay at the same level, regardless of what sessions they were at.
Why would you ever run a game with 1 level 10 and 9 level 1s? In that situation the players are absolutely right to hide in the null space chamber and game the system because that situation is utterly unfair on them.Hm, I never mentioned the size of the level 1 party. No idea where you got that 9 from.
Because when characters die sometimes GMs demand the new character start at level 1.
That's the stupidest way of handling character death ever designed and I don't think any reasonable modern GM would do that unless they were deliberately making a bad experience to get all meta or trying to recreate the original D&D experience for nostalgia reasons. That is not the game experience modern design should be designed for.
Character death should suck, but not too the point where the player can't meaningfully contribute to the party ever again. The GM (and players) should have enough roleplay, narrative and mechanical tools (and emotional investment in the characters) to make losing a character impactful without leaning on the crutch of xp penalties.
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Funnily enough, my groups soldier would probably storm off kick down the door of the first room and start shooting things while the clever person is 1/10th of the way through explaining their plan to sneak people past in a null-space chamber.It sounds like you set things up to intentionally allow them to bypass encounters.
You can either set them up to bypass, or set them up so they can't easily do so, but you can't do both.
And I wasn't trying to be rude, sorry if it came off that way. But you seemed to be saying the issue of null space bags + operative was a problem that you only had the blunt tool solution of turning "dungeons" into single room adventures with only one unavoidable combat.
Going back to Pathfinder and previous games dungeon design, I like providing secret passages, shortcuts, and other alternate paths. I like rooms with multiple exits, hallways, chutes, vents, portals, etc.. For each scenario my goal is to create at least three ways to explore and problem solve. The beauty of Starfinder, and perhaps other sci-fi games, is that it provides abilities/technology not typically found in fantasy rpgs that allow for creative ways to overcome challenges. It rarely happens, but if my players want to bypass everything, then so be it. Whatever makes them feel good and come back for more is fine in my book.
Like with other powerful combos in the game, we should take into consideration the options that become available to a ysoki ghost operative with high stealth and a null space chamber loaded with mechanics and mystics, or, in other words, specific combos like this can lead to a higher probability of players choosing a path of least resistance. It's not a problem, but it's something to take into account when designing our dungeons.
Sometimes that's the best way to do it. ;)
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My thoughts on some of the other points:
On the distribution of XP: I reward experience equally between all PCs, resulting in the PCs having the same total earned. When a player role-plays well, creates an awesome story, promotes teamwork, employs a clever tactic, or does something else that I feel should be encouraged and rewarded, I reward everyone at the table. In my experience this practice helps foster a spirit of camaraderie. When my friends and I played as kids, we awarded individually which led to competition and petty rivalries, the exact opposite of what I'm looking for now as an adult.
On PC death and penalties: I agree that a player starting over with a level one PC after losing a character is not the way to go. Different strokes for different folks, but losing a PC is bad enough, why add to a player's grief by starting over at level one? As a GM, I feel such a practice would negatively impact my encounter design and stories. What's more, sometimes dramatically introducing a new character that can stand toe to toe with the established PCs can lead to a memorable "wow moment." I played back in that bygone era when starting over at level one was common practice, but I'm glad it's a thing of the past. To each their own.
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That's the stupidest way of handling character death ever designed and I don't think any reasonable modern GM would do that unless they were deliberately making a bad experience to get all meta or trying to recreate the original D&D experience for nostalgia reasons. That is not the game experience modern design should be designed for.
Meh, don't knock it until you've tried it.
Yeah, yeah, everything old is terrible, and now everything is better.
Get off my lawn.
That's the stupidest way of handling character death ever designed and I don't think any reasonable modern GM would do that unless they were deliberately making a bad experience to get all meta or trying to recreate the original D&D experience for nostalgia reasons. That is not the game experience modern design should be designed for.Meh, don't knock it until you've tried it.
Yeah, yeah, everything old is terrible, and now everything is better.
Get off my lawn.
I have tried it - my first introduction to 3.5 and Pathfinder was playing with a GM who played it that way, and that (combined with other elements of his Gm style) created a very risk averse, cutthroat and toxic atmosphere in the group, to the point where it is a wonder I kept being interested in RPGs after eventually leaving that group.
Gotta say i’m not a fan of the come back at lvl1 either. Starfinder would be especially deadly with proficiency adding level onto dam. Come back book 4 of Dead Suns and a single shot would insta-kill.
It’s not a fun roleplaying experience, and it’s hard to be a part of a story you have little effect on. Hence my dislike of the null space as a constant party travelling device. It removes players from the board and stops potential influence on the narrative.
The dice have always been secondary to the story told for me, therefore anything which sidelined others on a constant basis should be discouraged, even if mechanically it’s a sound tactic,
The proper word to describe those GMs is "terrible". "Seriously mistaken" or "Flat out wrong" would also work. The rules need not try to fix problems produced by bad GM or Player behavior.
Yeah, how dare they play outside the norm. The nerve of those people.
Back in topic, more or less, this could also be exploited by the players hiring high level NPCs to carry them around, earning free xp from inside their pocket dimensions.
Not handling out xp for characters that aren't playing fixes that.
Then it's only a strategy for the GM to use against the party.
The proper word to describe those GMs is "terrible". "Seriously mistaken" or "Flat out wrong" would also work. The rules need not try to fix problems produced by bad GM or Player behavior.Yeah, how dare they play outside the norm. The nerve of those people.
Back in topic, more or less, this could also be exploited by the players hiring high level NPCs to carry them around, earning free xp from inside their pocket dimensions.
Not handling out xp for characters that aren't playing fixes that.
Then it's only a strategy for the GM to use against the party.
...wh...wh...why is the GM using strategies against the party?
Like, if nobody in the party does anything, then they wouldn't get XP anyway. The only inequity comes when some of the PCs show up and do stuff and get XP but others can't make it and fall behind. Who cares if an NPC gets XP? That has nothing to do with the party.
Plus, why would high level characters hire themselves out to do the kind of dangerous stuff that PCs do? Like, they probably have better things to do! And PCs have better things to spend their WBL on!
Now, if the PCs strike a deal with an NPC that has access that they don't have, say in the Bluerise Tower or an enemy base, and they sneak a null-space chamber with the PCs inside past the guards, then that should be celebrated! That's clever! XP for everyone!
The proper word to describe those GMs is "terrible". "Seriously mistaken" or "Flat out wrong" would also work. The rules need not try to fix problems produced by bad GM or Player behavior.Yeah, how dare they play outside the norm. The nerve of those people.
Back in topic, more or less, this could also be exploited by the players hiring high level NPCs to carry them around, earning free xp from inside their pocket dimensions.
Not handling out xp for characters that aren't playing fixes that.
Then it's only a strategy for the GM to use against the party.
No, that's not even remotely true.
After a certain point, the availability of higher level NPCs shrinks abruptly. In Pathfinder it was level 5. Level 5 was the practical cap for generic individuals. So the PCs want to hire someone, no one available in the area they're at. Oh the PCs want to go looking for someone else to do the job? Why would they do it? Are the PCs paying enough to interest higher level NPCs? Not likely. And if they do, why wouldn't the NPCs just strike a deal with whomever the PCs are working for (if they are).
You're the GM, you get to control what NPCs are available. That means you don't have to let them hire higher level NPCs to adventure in their place.
...wh...wh...why is the GM using strategies against the party?
Uh, to throw them for a loop, to surprise them and such? Instead of only straight fighting? Insta-army inside the headquarters you are defending?
Like, if nobody in the party does anything, then they wouldn't get XP anyway. The only inequity comes when some of the PCs show up and do stuff and get XP but others can't make it and fall behind.
This is a deterrent to PCs hiding inside a pocket dimension and being carried around by the stealthy character, while still getting xp.
Who cares if an NPC gets XP? That has nothing to do with the party.
... what?
Plus, why would high level characters hire themselves out to do the kind of dangerous stuff that PCs do? Like, they probably have better things to do! And PCs have better things to spend their WBL on!
Money, connections, favors, diplomacy rolls, hanky-panky...
Now, if the PCs strike a deal with an NPC that has access that they don't have, say in the Bluerise Tower or an enemy base, and they sneak a null-space chamber with the PCs inside past the guards, then that should be celebrated! That's clever! XP for everyone!
I'd dole out xp for NPC interaction, but not for being transported safely through all the obstacles. They can still get the xp when they confront the big bad or get the macguffin, but they'll miss out on any xp and loot on the way.
It just seems boring. If it is not the case and the players actually have a good time, then it's time to modify the campaign to include only last bosses encounters. Might be good for a change of pace.
Now, if the PCs strike a deal with an NPC that has access that they don't have, say in the Bluerise Tower or an enemy base, and they sneak a null-space chamber with the PCs inside past the guards, then that should be celebrated! That's clever! XP for everyone!
See that’s fine. It’s a way in, infiltrating the security system while running serious risk if they are caught. Makes for a good story.
However, say they stayed in the null space for the entire dungeon and one PC simply had to make Skull checks to skip, say 10 encounters, until the boss, I don’t feel they should get the same XP as having defeated them all.
It’s boring for everyone involved, GM and the players that get to do nothing while one PC rolls skill checks for 45 minutes of exploration.
However, say they stayed in the null space for the entire dungeon and one PC simply had to make Skull checks to skip, say 10 encounters, until the boss, I don’t feel they should get the same XP as having defeated them all.It’s boring for everyone involved, GM and the players that get to do nothing while one PC rolls skill checks for 45 minutes of exploration.
If it's boring, then why are the players doing it? Why did the GM let it happen? The GM's job is to make sure everyone has fun. If the PCs thinking of something that would invalidate the fun of the whole group, the GM should think of a way to get them back on track.
Maybe something goes wrong in the null space, and they have to get out. Maybe the stealthy character steps through an area that automatically detects extradimensional activity and creates an alarm. There's a lot of complications the GM can throw at the party without invalidating any character's contribution or docking them XP.
However, say they stayed in the null space for the entire dungeon and one PC simply had to make Skull checks to skip, say 10 encounters, until the boss, I don’t feel they should get the same XP as having defeated them all.It’s boring for everyone involved, GM and the players that get to do nothing while one PC rolls skill checks for 45 minutes of exploration.
If it's boring, then why are the players doing it? Why did the GM let it happen? The GM's job is to make sure everyone has fun. If the PCs thinking of something that would invalidate the fun of the whole group, the GM should think of a way to get them back on track.
Maybe something goes wrong in the null space, and they have to get out. Maybe the stealthy character steps through an area that automatically detects extradimensional activity and creates an alarm. There's a lot of complications the GM can throw at the party without invalidating any character's contribution or docking them XP.
Again I agree. Earlier comments suggested players should just be allowed to do it because essentially “dem the rules” and you shouldn’t mess with the usage.
I allowed the initial travel method in the original post as it’s a great work around a difficult situation. However, making sure the game is fun is as important as you say. Making sure circumstances change, sometimes throwing wrenches in plans.
To be fair I can trust my group 90% of the time. Hell they just chopped a party members leg off because it makes sense in character even though there were options in game to just pump him full of mess to keep the PC alive until they passed the strength test to free the crushing object.
Let them rework a device in Dead Suns book 4 to grow it back (no spoilers), because story is always more important than mechanics on both sides of the table.