sorcerer problems with free heightening and a possible solution

[Gavmania]

Also of relevance from the Trinkets and Treasures Blog

Quote:

I've included only the level 3 minor staff of healing here. There are also versions at levels 7, 11, and 15, and they add higher-level heal spells, plus restoration, remove disease, restore senses, and more!

The level 3 staff only casts Heal (1), which presumably means

a) No matter what spell slot you use, you only get heal (1)
b) Later versions will give you heal (2), heal (3), heal (4), etc.
c) To use higher level heals you must use a higher level slot, but no matter how high a level slot you use, it cannot heighten heal beyond what's available on the staff.

[Mekkis]

citricking wrote:

Currently a sorcerer has 6 options to cast for every spell level, a wizard has 4.

If you could spontaneously heighten every spell they would have up to (4 x spell levels) options for each level if every spell had an option for each level

Many spells already revealed have higher base levels - you can't take fireball at level 1. And the option of taking exclusively heightenable first-level spells is most likely a case of taking a suboptimal choice*.

Aside on suboptimal choices:

I think that the system shouldn't be designed to require taking optimal choices. The fact is: there are always going to be some choices that are better than others. By making the achievable power level higher than the expected power level, you empower players to make suboptimal choices without falling behind. Pathfinder does a good job of this: it's why we occasionally see characters with thirteen single-classes, or in one case, a character who refuses to roll dice.

citricking wrote:

At level 10 with 5th level spells that's 20 options for each spell level, not so close to the 6 or 4 currently

Getting free heightens makes spells with multiple options way more useful as spells known than spells with just one effect. That's impossible to balance.

I disagree with your premise. It's not impossible to balance. This is already available to 5e. And that isn't, to my knowledge, grossly unbalanced.

[citricking]

Mekkis wrote:

citricking wrote:

Currently a sorcerer has 6 options to cast for every spell level, a wizard has 4.

If you could spontaneously heighten every spell they would have up to (4 x spell levels) options for each level if every spell had an option for each level

Many spells already revealed have higher base levels - you can't take fireball at level 1. And the option of taking exclusively heightenable first-level spells is most likely a case of taking a suboptimal choice*.

** spoiler omitted **

citricking wrote:

At level 10 with 5th level spells that's 20 options for each spell level, not so close to the 6 or 4 currently

Getting free heightens makes spells with multiple options way more useful as spells known than spells with just one effect. That's impossible to balance.

I disagree with your premise. It's not impossible to balance. This is already available to 5e. And that isn't, to my knowledge, grossly unbalanced.

You make a good point about 5e, but 5e handles spells known a lot differently. You get 2 more spells known/prepared each spell level of any level. That's a lot less than the 4 spells known for each level of a pf2e sorcerer. But yeah, I guess it would work if they spent more care making spells more balanced in worth as spells known.

Other people have mentioned 5es upcasting is much less valuable than a higher level spell, which I hope isn't the case in pf2e.

[MusicAddict]

citricking wrote:

Mekkis wrote:

citricking wrote:

Currently a sorcerer has 6 options to cast for every spell level, a wizard has 4.

If you could spontaneously heighten every spell they would have up to (4 x spell levels) options for each level if every spell had an option for each level

Many spells already revealed have higher base levels - you can't take fireball at level 1. And the option of taking exclusively heightenable first-level spells is most likely a case of taking a suboptimal choice*.

** spoiler omitted **

citricking wrote:

At level 10 with 5th level spells that's 20 options for each spell level, not so close to the 6 or 4 currently

Getting free heightens makes spells with multiple options way more useful as spells known than spells with just one effect. That's impossible to balance.

I disagree with your premise. It's not impossible to balance. This is already available to 5e. And that isn't, to my knowledge, grossly unbalanced.

You make a good point about 5e, but 5e handles spells known a lot differently. You get 2 more spells known/prepared each spell level of any level. That's a lot less than the 4 spells known for each level of a pf2e sorcerer. But yeah, I guess it would work if they spent more care making spells more balanced in worth as spells known.

Other people have mentioned 5es upcasting is much less valuable than a higher level spell, which I hope isn't the case in pf2e.

It's looks to be a mixed bag, updating is intentionally weaker than using an appropriately leveled spell at the same level in most cases, but it's not so egregiously so as it is in 5e, as notable with damage spell examples, such as a fireball doing 1d6 damage less than a cone of cold cast at the same level. It's intentional design, two spells being exactly equal in effectiveness in this case means the new high level spell is redundant, that you'd never take that spell if you already had one that filled that niche. But for a caster who doesn't want to be on the bleeding edge of damage,and doesn't need yet another damage type, if they they have a fireball, they probably don't need to pick up cone of cold that badly for that extra 1d6 damage for an aoe ability .

[willuwontu]

brad2411 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

I've got a question about staves, can you cast the spells in them using your spell slots to heighten it higher than the staff casts it at?

Ex: can a 5th level sorcerer use a staff of healing (level 1) to cast heal (level 3) for the cost of an RP and 3rd level spell slot?
Or no because the staff only has heal (level 1)?

Good question.

Also, can prepared casters convert spell slots on the fly with a staff? Like how the PF1 cleric could turn spells into Cure X Wounds? It occurred to me this might not necessarily be the case, as only sorcerers have the flexibility for just spending a generic spell slot on the fly. That would actually be a pretty interesting advantage and would be a nice loot edge compared to wizards finding spell books, assuming sorcerers can't benefit from spellbooks still.

This might answer willuwontu's question

Trinkets and Treasures Blog wrote:

Then you have two options: You can either expend charges from the staff equal to the spell's level (1 charge for heal here) or expend one of your own spells of that level or higher. Yeah, your staff essentially lets you spontaneously cast the spells in it!

It does not confirm about wizards being able to use the staffs for spontaneous casting, but I would assume so.

It's because of that that I'm unsure of how it works. It might just be a heal (level 1) cast by expending a 3rd level slot, or it could be heal (level 3).

Wizards would be able to use it for spontaneous casting.

[TheFinish]

willuwontu wrote:

brad2411 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

I've got a question about staves, can you cast the spells in them using your spell slots to heighten it higher than the staff casts it at?

Ex: can a 5th level sorcerer use a staff of healing (level 1) to cast heal (level 3) for the cost of an RP and 3rd level spell slot?
Or no because the staff only has heal (level 1)?

Good question.

Also, can prepared casters convert spell slots on the fly with a staff? Like how the PF1 cleric could turn spells into Cure X Wounds? It occurred to me this might not necessarily be the case, as only sorcerers have the flexibility for just spending a generic spell slot on the fly. That would actually be a pretty interesting advantage and would be a nice loot edge compared to wizards finding spell books, assuming sorcerers can't benefit from spellbooks still.

This might answer willuwontu's question

Trinkets and Treasures Blog wrote:

Then you have two options: You can either expend charges from the staff equal to the spell's level (1 charge for heal here) or expend one of your own spells of that level or higher. Yeah, your staff essentially lets you spontaneously cast the spells in it!

It does not confirm about wizards being able to use the staffs for spontaneous casting, but I would assume so.

It's because of that that I'm unsure of how it works. It might just be a heal (level 1) cast by expending a 3rd level slot, or it could be heal (level 3).

Wizards would be able to use it for spontaneous casting.

If the staff of healing said heal in the spells section, I'd agree with you. But the specification of heal (level 1) to me means no matter what slot you use to cast, it's always going to be a 1st level heal.

This is also reinforced when the blog then states:

"There are also versions at levels 7, 11, and 15, and they add higher-level heal spells, plus restoration, remove disease, restore senses, and more!"

As for usage, casting a spell requires charges (which the Wizard can provide without issue) or spells of an appropiate level or higher (which the wizard can also provide without issue). So indeed, there's no reason Wizards can't use them to spontaneously cast spells.

[Elleth]

You know, I think I might consider making something I'm going to temp dub a "dragonblood stave". Long and short of it being a stave that works as we've been shown, except with the involved spell being one chosen from the spells known of an invested sorcerer. The passive effect would be something cookie cutter that should be appropriate to most spells, while the cantrip (if it granted one, which it might not) should be something generally useful like detect magic.
Edit: based on the comment above, the chosen spell should auto-heighten.

[willuwontu]

TheFinish wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

brad2411 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

I've got a question about staves, can you cast the spells in them using your spell slots to heighten it higher than the staff casts it at?

Ex: can a 5th level sorcerer use a staff of healing (level 1) to cast heal (level 3) for the cost of an RP and 3rd level spell slot?
Or no because the staff only has heal (level 1)?

Good question.

Also, can prepared casters convert spell slots on the fly with a staff? Like how the PF1 cleric could turn spells into Cure X Wounds? It occurred to me this might not necessarily be the case, as only sorcerers have the flexibility for just spending a generic spell slot on the fly. That would actually be a pretty interesting advantage and would be a nice loot edge compared to wizards finding spell books, assuming sorcerers can't benefit from spellbooks still.

This might answer willuwontu's question

Trinkets and Treasures Blog wrote:

Then you have two options: You can either expend charges from the staff equal to the spell's level (1 charge for heal here) or expend one of your own spells of that level or higher. Yeah, your staff essentially lets you spontaneously cast the spells in it!

It does not confirm about wizards being able to use the staffs for spontaneous casting, but I would assume so.

It's because of that that I'm unsure of how it works. It might just be a heal (level 1) cast by expending a 3rd level slot, or it could be heal (level 3).

Wizards would be able to use it for spontaneous casting.

If the staff of healing said heal in the spells section, I'd agree with you. But the specification of heal (level 1) to me means no matter what slot you use to cast, it's always going to be a 1st level heal.

This is also reinforced when the blog then states:

"There are also versions at levels 7, 11, and 15, and they add higher-level heal spells, plus restoration, remove disease, restore senses, and more!"

As for usage, casting a spell requires charges (which the Wizard can provide without issue) or spells of an appropiate level or higher (which the wizard can also provide without issue). So indeed, there's no reason Wizards can't use them to spontaneously cast spells.

The staff specifies what level of spell is in it, because that determines how many charges are used if you cast it from the staff, I wouldn't be surprised if using a higher leveled spell slot would allow you to heighten it as you cast it. That's why I asked mark for clarification.

[Captain Morgan]

5e upcasting is significantly weaker than PF1 upcasting. It usually only adds like one of the following: an extra damage die (fireball and Heal in PF2 literally scale twice as fast as 5e), longer duration, or targets at 1 per slot level.

By comparison, things PF2 heightening provides:

Paralyze: This seems to be all of the Hold Person/Monster/etc spells combined. It is quite possible this not only scales up the amount of creatures it targets, but the kind of creatures it targets.

Magic Missile: Up to 3 more missiles per 2 spell levels. Launching this many attacks with one spell can have very interesting rules interactions.

Fly: Everything from feather fall to levitate to overland flight in one spell.

Invisibility: Greater at 4th. Need I say more?

Dinosaur Form: Progressively more badass dinos.

Blasts: As mentioned, better scaling.

Cure: All the conditions, one spell.

Also, the 5e sorcerer sucks compared to the 5e wizard, so it is a weird example to point to here. Admittedly, that's probably more because 5e wizards use arcanist casting rather than heightening mechanics.

But! PF2 wizards are classic vancian. While they CAN heighten any of their spells for free, they have to choose to do so ahead of time. (Essentially, they must have a day's notice.) Given a day's notice, a sorcerer can also choose to heighten any of her spells, and is then fully flexible for that day in being able to cast at any level she deems appropriate.

This means that in practice the only time the wizard's heightening mechanics is actually a substantial advantage is when the casters need to use more than two different heightened spells in the course of the single day and knows that ahead of time. To illustrate:

We have 1 12th level sorcerer vs 12th level universaist wizard. (Universalist just feels most comparable to the spontaneous sorcerer, but you can replace with any specialist without drastically changing the equation.) Both know fireball, fly, and dispel magic. (The sorcerer took them as 3rd level spells known.) Both know Cone of Cold, as well. Neither has any higher fire spells than fireball.

The scenario is infiltrating a frost giant mountain camp with their entire party.

Flying up to the camp makes for a much stealthier/safer approach than climbing the mountain's well guarded winding path. This calls for a 6th level fly spell so the entire party can be carried. And obviously fighting hordes of frost giants calls for the strongest fireball possible. And from the rogue's reconnaissance, the party happens to know there is a magical ward which can be automatically dispelled with a 6th level dispel magic. In this scenario, the wizard is winning, because he can fill his top slots with 6th level fly, fireball, and dispel magic. He probably also opts to prepare fireball in some lower level slots, expecting to fight a lot of these giants. For simplicity, let's say he puts one in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. That leaves him with 2 different spells he can prepare for each of those spell levels.

However, it is very easy for this scenario to be altered in a way that favors the sorcerer. Consider if the party has an alternative means of flight-- the sorcerer just needs to heighten dispel and fireball. Suddenly, she is able to deactivate the ward and can use fireball at levels 3-6th and still have all of her spells known. That means while the wizard only has 2 non-fireball spells to pull from for levels 4 and 5, the sorcerer has 4. That is a huge advantage for being able to adapt on the fly.

The sorcerer also winds up being able to dispel other things which pop up. Say the frost giant cleric who set up the ward surprises the party by still being around, and immediately wards the frost giants with Protection from Fire. All those fireballs the wizard prepped now wish they could be more dispel magics, but this isn't a problem for our sorcerer.

Or you can keep the ward and flight requirements, but change the frost giants to something elementally agnostic, and suddenly Cone of Cold will get the job done.

Your wizard not only needs to be confronted with these highly specific scenarios to reap the benefit of the heightening, but be informed about them ahead of time to make the right preparations. An informed sorcerer only really runs into problems if she needs to heighten more than her 2.

Now, high level stuff like Quick Preparation may change this equity somewhat, but that feels like a call for making sure class feats are balanced with each other, not needing to alter the core mechanics of the sorcerer.

[thflame]

Excaliburproxy wrote:

A sorceror is limited by spells known and if they can heighten all their spells for free then they will get more utility out of spells that can be heightened.

Replace "utility" with "options" and I'll agree with you, but just because you have more "options" doesn't mean you have more "utility".

For example, a Fireball that deals 10d6 vs a lightning bolt that deals 10d6 vs a single target with no special resistances or weaknesses to either element (which is the case 90% of the time) are practically the same. You have no more utility, in that instance than if you only had fireball or lightning bolt.

Quote:

As such, if a level 1 spell that can be heightened is equally valuable to a wizard as another level 1 spell that cannot be heightened then the spell that CAN be heightened will always be more valuable to the Sorceror.

Wrong. The wizard, by your logic, ALSO wants spells that can be heightened, because each additional level he can cast a spell at is effectively a free extra spell learned.

In reality, characters are going to pick spells that have effects that they want, regardless of whether or not they can scale.

For example, let's say you already have 3 blasting spells. Would a utility spell that can only be cast at a fixed level be more or less useful than another heighten-able blasting spell?

Quote:

Does it make sense now?

No, it doesn't, because it is patently untrue.

Just because you can freely heighten spells, doesn't mean that spells that can't be heightened suddenly become less useful or desirable.

As for your other quip about me needing a house rule to stop "analysis paralysis...

That person was a jerk. What I SHOULD have done was kick him off my table. The rule I instituted shouldn't have been a necessary rule, seeing as every other new player at the table had no problems playing the game in a timely fashion.

If someone is going to suffer from analysis paralysis because they have too many options for what spell to cast this turn, then how the heck are they going to get passed preparing spells as a wizard?

And before you say, "at least you aren't preparing spells in combat", you are STILL preparing spells at the table. Just because 10 minutes of selecting what spell to cast happens in combat, doesn't mean it's okay for the wizard to waste an hour of our time preparing spells. (An equally, if not lesser, hyperbolic statement, to be fair, sine NOBODY takes that long to make such decisions, without being too incompetent to play a caster or an optimization jerk.)

Wizards make a "go to" list of prepared spells that they tweak when the situation calls for it. Sorcerers will ultimately keep a mental list of "go to" spells when a situation arises.

Yes, I can see situations where the sorcerer bites his nails over whether level 5 fireball will suffice or if a level 7 is needed, but it shouldn't take him more than 15 seconds to decide which one to use.

[Gorignak227]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Gavmania wrote:

Divine sorcerers can use a Feat o get channel. That's like spontaneously heightened heal, 3+CHA times per day.

I kept seeing things similar to this and wondering why, then checked the blog and see it doesn't specify the use number. It's 1/day, not tons of times per day. And you get more spells per day than the cleric not counting the cleric's channel. No wonder people thought the primal option wasn't as good as divine.

Well i thought it may have really infringed on the cleric but now it seems like it may not be worth it only getting 1 heal spell for a class feat when you already know Heal.

[Mark Seifter]

Gorignak227 wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Gavmania wrote:

Divine sorcerers can use a Feat o get channel. That's like spontaneously heightened heal, 3+CHA times per day.

I kept seeing things similar to this and wondering why, then checked the blog and see it doesn't specify the use number. It's 1/day, not tons of times per day. And you get more spells per day than the cleric not counting the cleric's channel. No wonder people thought the primal option wasn't as good as divine.

Well i thought it may have really infringed on the cleric but now it seems like it may not be worth it only getting 1 heal spell for a class feat when you already know Heal.

Well, here's a useful questionnaire to determine if it's right for your character who already knows (or spont heightens to) top level heal.

1) Would you spend this feat to get a scaling bonus spell per day of whatever your highest level of spell you can cast?
2) If yes, do you anticipate that you will cast at least one max-level heal (or want to do it but be short on top-level slots and have to make do with second-to-best) on most or all days? (the answer to this should be Yes or else learning/spont heightening top level heal was a waste)

If the answer to these questions was yes, and this seems likely if your character knows or spont heightens top level heal, you should definitely take this feat!

[Cantriped]

If nothing else, the feat frees up one of the divine sorcerer's highest level slots for something other than Heal (or nets them one more of their best Heals every day).

[The Raven Black]

Cantriped wrote:

If nothing else, the feat frees up one of the divine sorcerer's highest level slots for something other than Heal (or nets them one more of their best Heals every day).

I think this is what Mark was hinting at : get one of the Cleric's tools for not being just a healbot :-)

[Mark Seifter]

The Raven Black wrote:

Cantriped wrote:

If nothing else, the feat frees up one of the divine sorcerer's highest level slots for something other than Heal (or nets them one more of their best Heals every day).

I think this is what Mark was hinting at : get one of the Cleric's tools for not being just a healbot :-)

Indeed, that's exactly the idea here. If you're going to use top-level heal often, this is a feat for essentially an extra top level slot each day that scales to your best slot (which is a very strong benefit).

[DeltaPangaea]

Uh yeah, I'm gonna weigh in and say that decision paralysis is a non-answer.

Undercasting worked fine for psychic magic in 1e, and now it's good in Starfinder too. Why is it suddenly bad civilization now we're in 2e?

Seriously, a sorcerer having to learn his favorite spell at every level he wants to cast it at sounds like a tremendous pain in the rear. They already have limited spell selection compared to a wizard, so this feels even more restrictive.

Especially since wizards can just ditch a prepared spell to replace it with another with one feat now, so they don't even need to leave slots open to be able to respond to things on the fly anymore.

Spontaneous Heightening feels like a bandaid, and undercasting not being a base part of the magic system will make future spontaneous casters more of a pain to play, since they won't have it. Or if they WILL have it, then why is it a class feature?

[Xenocrat]

DeltaPangaea wrote:

Especially since wizards can just ditch a prepared spell to replace it with another with one feat now, so they don't even need to leave slots open to be able to respond to things on the fly anymore.

That's probably a highish level feat, and we don't know that Wizards can leave slots empty anymore.

[DeltaPangaea]

Xenocrat wrote:

DeltaPangaea wrote:

Especially since wizards can just ditch a prepared spell to replace it with another with one feat now, so they don't even need to leave slots open to be able to respond to things on the fly anymore.

That's probably a highish level feat, and we don't know that Wizards can leave slots empty anymore.

It's a level 4 feat. And takes 10 minutes to use, and can do it as many times a day as you want.

[Arachnofiend]

Yep. Essentially, you can never have a situation where the party isn't on a strict time limit if there happens to be a level 4 wizard involved because he can just pick out the absolute perfect spell without even having to think about preparing it.

[HWalsh]

Mark Seifter wrote:

thflame wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

thflame wrote:

If the sorcerer doesn't have the "right spell", he's just up a creek.

Unless, of course, he has a Scroll of the right spell. Or a staff that grants it. Or something else similar.

Same logic applies to the wizard.

And before you say, "but the sorcerer will have more Resonance for such things", keep in mind that given the way stats work in PF2, the wizard will likely have a decently high CHA score too. At most I suspect that a sorcerer will have 2 more Resonance than a wizard.

I can speak to stat builds. The wizard build that does this, at the expense of Dex and Con, is certainly possible, and I might use something similar if building my Taldan noble wizard character in PF2, but it's definitely not something I've seen thus far.

Yeah I agree with Mark, we won't see lot of high Charisma Wizards.

While not PF2 - I can state in Starfinder that this is not optimal.

Since you get 4 raises, typically speaking, you want 3 to be Dex, Con, and Wis for buffing saves. Leaving the 4th open.

So Wizards will likely focus on Int, Dex, Wis, Con.

Rogues will likely focus on Dex, Con, Wis, and 1 stat of choice.

Cleric Wis, Con, Dex, and probably Strength

Barbarian Str, Dex, Con, Wis

Fighter Str, Dex, Con, Wis

Sorc Cha, Dex, Con, Wis

Bard Cha, Dex, Con, Wis

Monk Str, Dex, Con, Wis

Paladin gets screwed a bit by having to go Str, Cha, Dex, Con, and Wis - Just like the Starfinder Solarian.

[Captain Morgan]

DeltaPangaea wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

DeltaPangaea wrote:

Especially since wizards can just ditch a prepared spell to replace it with another with one feat now, so they don't even need to leave slots open to be able to respond to things on the fly anymore.

That's probably a highish level feat, and we don't know that Wizards can leave slots empty anymore.

It's a level 4 feat. And takes 10 minutes to use, and can do it as many times a day as you want.

You got a copy of the playtest already? Cuz the wizard blog specifically mentioned that feat in the context of "the highest level of power." Which is not level 4.

I mean, some people have them by now, so maybe you are one.

[DeltaPangaea]

HWalsh wrote:

Yeah I agree with Mark, we won't see lot of high Charisma Wizards.

We won't, but Resonance difference from stats is only really going to matter as much in the earlier game. 4-5 points more is big at level 2, but less so at say, level 16. It's still significant, but by no means worldshattering.

Captain Morgan wrote:

You got a copy of the playtest already? Cuz the wizard blog specifically mentioned that feat in the context of "the highest level of power." Which is not level 4.

I mean, some people have them by now, so maybe you are one.

Not personally, but c'mon man, it's 2018. We're getting screencaps already.

[Xenocrat]

The Bard can pick a feat to go to 4 heightened spells, and the spell book feat allows them to heighten a fifth instead of preparing a new spell. It seems fine. I’m sure the Sorcerer can also go to four.