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You know... I am suddenly terrified that Everburning Torches and Wayfinders will require investment to produce light. Will non-spellcasting humans be 'taxed' Resonance just to be able to see where they are going?
Not that I have a problem with going back to mundane lanterns being expected equipment at all levels of play. It will just be something of a paradigm shift to those used to how unimportant light is in 3rd edition and its legacy sysyems.
You know... I am suddenly terrified that Everburning Torches and Wayfinders will require investment to produce light. Will non-spellcasting humans be 'taxed' Resonance just to be able to see where they are going?
Not that I have a problem with going back to mundane lanterns being expected equipment at all levels of play. It will just be something of a paradigm shift to those used to how unimportant light is in 3rd edition and its legacy sysyems.
Remember the preview of the cloak of elvenkind? You need to invest, but then it can perform ghost sound and if you pull up the hood it gives you a stealth bonus, all for free. You can also activate it for 1RP to become invisible.
I think Wayfinders will be similar. You invest, it has free effects, maybe the most powerful might need an activate.
A simple everburning torch... I think that's a very minor item. I don't think you'll ever need to spend RPs on that. But we'll see.
A simple everburning torch... I think that's a very minor item. I don't think you'll ever need to spend RPs on that. But we'll see.
I too hope that minor items will not have a cost but the worry is were the arbitrary line is between minor and not minor.
A simple everburning torch... I think that's a very minor item. I don't think you'll ever need to spend RPs on that. But we'll see.I too hope that minor items will not have a cost but the worry is were the arbitrary line is between minor and not minor.
True. We can only hope - after all we don't have much decisional power.
Although I guess that if in the playtest we find some crappy item that needs invest we can rise up in arms against Paizo as a form of very visible feedback =)
Also, although it's not much consolation, a GM can always decide they don't want their players to track resonance for an everburning torch.
To be fair, Wayfinders requiring investment makes sense considering the concept of Wayfinder Resonance With Ioun Stones is part of the new resonance system's conceptual roots.
Also because Wayfinders will frequently be granting the ability to cast other cantrips besides self-only Light.
Like-wise compared to the opportunity cost and hassle of lanterns (and lantern oil), paying 1 RP to invest in an Everburning Torch isn't so bad. Especially if it did damage like a 'real' torch, only magically fueled.
It just feels like too many things are drawing from that one, very limited resource pool (at least at low levels).
You know... I am suddenly terrified that Everburning Torches and Wayfinders will require investment to produce light. Will non-spellcasting humans be 'taxed' Resonance just to be able to see where they are going?
Not that I have a problem with going back to mundane lanterns being expected equipment at all levels of play. It will just be something of a paradigm shift to those used to how unimportant light is in 3rd edition and its legacy sysyems.
The cleric pregen has Light. Still a cantrip, 24 hour duration. Wasting any money on any kind of light source (mundane or otherwise) seems completely pointless, unless you're decorating a castle or something.
So if they do require resonance, you can happily chuck them into the 'trap option' pile and not bother.
You know... I am suddenly terrified that Everburning Torches and Wayfinders will require investment to produce light. Will non-spellcasting humans be 'taxed' Resonance just to be able to see where they are going?
Not that I have a problem with going back to mundane lanterns being expected equipment at all levels of play. It will just be something of a paradigm shift to those used to how unimportant light is in 3rd edition and its legacy sysyems.
The cleric pregen has Light. Still a cantrip, 24 hour duration. Wasting any money on any kind of light source (mundane or otherwise) seems completely pointless, unless you're decorating a castle or something.
So if they do require resonance, you can happily chuck them into the 'trap option' pile and not bother.
Because we're all gonna have clerics.
Maybe not clerics per say... but it is fair to argue every party will have at least one member that could, in theory, cast Light.
Maybe not clerics per say... but it is fair to argue every party will have at least one member that could, in theory, cast Light.
Generally, yes. In practice, very small groups might not have casters at all. Then a magic torch becomes a nice investment.
I'm not saying it's the first thing my players buy or try to craft whenever possible, not at all. It's just not a "trap option" - it has its uses.
I feel like we can still put a lot of input so we can go though the magic items they have and give our input so if we end seeing an ever burning torch and it costs resonance we can request that it be changed or vice versa maybe in some circumstances.
I feel like we can still put a lot of input so we can go though the magic items they have and give our input so if we end seeing an ever burning torch and it costs resonance we can request that it be changed or vice versa maybe in some circumstances.
Of course, this is all still playtest! But rising up in arms would be so much more fun! ;)
Sounds exhausting to me.
Energy drink? Caffeinated beverage? Anything?
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Energy drinks give me a headache but coffee works!
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Energy drinks give me a headache but coffee works!
Coffee is just the best! It's my favorite moment of the whole day!
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Energy drinks give me a headache but coffee works!
Is that like, normal coffee, or dwarven coffee?
I feel like dwarven coffee would be similar to Scottish coffee (in other words add scotch). So it really depends on what my plans are.
Hmm you know I feel like that's a bit like speed balling. alcohol is a downer and caffeine is an upper.
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Coffee is just the best! It's my favorite moment of the whole day!
Silly Roswynn! Coffee isn't a moment, Coffee is forever. Join my caffinated cult, we have Java and Dice.
Coffee is just the best! It's my favorite moment of the whole day!Silly Roswynn! Coffee isn't a moment, Coffee is forever. Join my caffinated cult, we have Java and Dice.
Yes!
"I pray to thee, o almighty Coffee, and to thy dark, bittersweet deliciousness - "
... Wait a second! YOU DON'T HAVE LAVAZZA?? I'M OUT OF HERE!
;)
Interpreting the lore behind it is actually my favorite part of Resonance. What follows isn't gospel or canon to Golarion, but it makes me
In a world whee magic is essentially a fundamental force of reality in the same vein as electromagnetism, magic has seeped into every living creature. You've got a personal level of magical aura and tolerance. Magic items often work by mingling with your magical aura, and there's only so much of yourself you can put into them. This isn't too similar from how spell slots seem to work already-- a wizard's body can only store so many prepared spells, and sorcerer can only fire off so many spells before their spell well is exhausted.
It also ties into a larger concept of your life force. As you train and adventure and get exposed to greater amounts of magic, your body obtains an increasing capacity for these energies. This has many consequences which were already apparent from just basic leveling as we have always known it. Your body hardens against physical trauma (HP) and your personal aura buffers you from magical attacks (saves.) You can strike faster and harder, and your capacity for learning and applying skills increases. And you become capable of even greater feats of prowess, to the point where you are breaking the laws of mortal physics just like the titans you are now facing. (PF1 had plenty of this, but we are seeing it codified as Legendary Skill Feats and what not.)
Resonance is just one more way your character improves over their adventures, as their body can handle more and more magic.
I can see investing for staves and wands... but for weapons and armors too, though. There is cognitive dissonance there, and that makes for (repeat with me) *Suspension of Disbelief* - that's right kids!
Pretty sure armor will require investment. I'm just going to quote myself from another thread on this issue.
If a sword doesn't have resonance because it is "in hand" and not in a slot, then I would expect wands to also not have resonance, because they are in hand and not in a slot. I don't think they left resonance off of swords because it is in hand, I think they did it so Fighters don't have to spend points in Charisma to use magic swords. I expect Magic Armor will also be exempt, but I haven't seen that stated either way... yet.I am pretty sure Magic Armor costs resonance, and I am very confident that whichever way they land on that will also be how bracers of armor work, so there will definitely be parity between martials and casters on that point.
Also, magic swords DO cost resonance if they have an ability that needs to be activated, like launching a ray of fire. The mechanics of what costs resonance actually seem fairly straightforward TBH and fairly consistent. (The points I am concerned over have nothing to do with weapons, and more to do with charges and resonance on the same item feeling clunky, and strictly non-magical elixirs seeming to cost resonance being counter-intuitive.)
Items cost resonance if they are require activation or actively infusing your body with something. Wands require you to use some of your own internal magic to get that thing jumpstarted, as do many other items. A potion mixes with your own internal resonance when you drink it to activate. A Cloak of Elvenkind requires attuning your body to it for it to actually make you stealthier, boots require resonating with your body to make you faster, etc. It occurs to me that this is a pretty clever reason for Armor Potency runes to actually add to saves and perhaps touch AC, as it shows the armor's magic is actually mingling with your being in a meaningful way instead of just being a stronger material to cover your body with. Also an additional reason to axe things like rings of protection which just created static effects external to your body.
But some items don't need to be activated or invested in your essence. They just are. Swords qualify for that. You know how a +1 longsword sword adds +1 damage die when swung? Theoretically, if someone were to launch it telekinetically, it would do 2d8 as compared to the 1d8 of a mundane longsword, same as if it was swung. (Incidentally, this ties into why I don't think potency runes should add to accuracy, only damage. That kind of goes against this paradigm and isn't as intuitive as the crafted balance of the weapon making it easier to wield anyway.) However, if you want your sword to dispel magic or shoot lasers you are going to have to activate it the same as a wand.
Stuff like the Armageddon Orb doesn't seem to require resonance. It just is. (Well, maybe to actually set it up, especially if it is tied to your death or something. But certainly not to trigger it.) I'm speculating here a little, but I bet things like bags of holding and portable holes won't cost resonance either. Probably not an Immovable Rod either.
To touch on the specific example of the Everburning Torch, that would be an example of an item that just is. You can have Everburning Torches in every sconce in your castle, after all.
At the very worst, it might take a point of Resonance to create the torch in the first place, but once it is created it IS everburning. It isn't like you can turn an Everburning Torch on or off in PF1.
To touch on the specific example of the Everburning Torch, that would be an example of an item that just is. You can have Everburning Torches in every sconce in your castle, after all.
That's true.
Unless the devs have changed everything again.
I'm waiting to know more, thanks ;)
It just feels like too many things are drawing from that one, very limited resource pool (at least at low levels).
And "too many things" is the inspiration for my eighth interpretation. I speculated in my opening post about five reasons for resonance. The alchemist's ability to use resonance adds a sixth. I believe that the PF2 alchemist will be denied spell points since it is a non-spellcaster class, so it has to use resonance in the place of spell points. This gives another style of resonance significantly different from the other styles of activation and investment. Time to embrace the diversity.
8) Resonance as a set of keyword actions
People contain many resonant energies and those energies react with magic items in different ways. The interactions of these resonant energies are commonly known as activate, invest, and infuse. Activation energies power magic items. Investment energies attune magic items to their wielders. Infusion energies enliven the magic in esoteric materials to create magic items. Though the three resonant energies differ, the body replenishes them from a common store of resonance, so depleting one depletes them all.
This interpretation acknowledges that maybe resonance is two or three separate resource pools thrown together to simplify the game mechanic. The activation pool provides charges to wands and wondrous items, the investment pool limits slots for wearing magic items, and the alchemist's infusion pool is spent to create cheap extracts. The three basic uses of resonance don't have to resemble each other and don't have a shared interpretation, because they are not the same thing. Magic items don't necessarily have to use resonance, so magic weapons ignoring resonance does not break this interpretation. Only the magic items that specifically require activate, invest, or infuse actions use resonance. Check the magic item's description for the keywords.
And "too many things" is the inspiration for my eighth interpretation.
Some of my tentative house-rules regarding Resonance include:
Just Double It: Sort of a stop-gap rule. You simply double the end result of the normal Resonance calculation. Resulting in a new range of between 2-10 RP. Easy to remember/apply, Good for Higher Fantasy, and most likely an option we'll see in the CRB for High-Magic genre emulation. The scaling may be too much at end-game though. With pools of up to 52 RP for Sorcerers and Bards.
Investment Pool: You provide the PCs (and NPCs) with a secondary Resonance Pool equal to 2 + (CHA Mod) which can only be spent to Invest in an item. Under this house-rule Weapons require Investment, and their properties cannot be used by anyone else for 24 hours (as per staves)*. Main problem is it brings back the magic item christmas tree.
Apportioned Recovery: You allow PCs to regain ⅛th of their total Resonance per hour spent resting. Excluding any Invested in items of course, which divest automatically after 24 hours. This rule has the least impact at low levels because a character with but 2 RP would have to rest for at least 4 hours to recover 1 RP.
*This will also squash that unintended "pass the magic dagger around to attack the Shadow/Ghost" exploit.
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It just feels like too many things are drawing from that one, very limited resource pool (at least at low levels).And "too many things" is the inspiration for my eighth interpretation. I speculated in my opening post about five reasons for resonance. The alchemist's ability to use resonance adds a sixth. I believe that the PF2 alchemist will be denied spell points since it is a non-spellcaster class, so it has to use resonance in the place of spell points. This gives another style of resonance significantly different from the other styles of activation and investment. Time to embrace the diversity.
8) Resonance as a set of keyword actions
People contain many resonant energies and those energies react with magic items in different ways. The interactions of these resonant energies are commonly known as activate, invest, and infuse. Activation energies power magic items. Investment energies attune magic items to their wielders. Infusion energies enliven the magic in esoteric materials to create magic items. Though the three resonant energies differ, the body replenishes them from a common store of resonance, so depleting one depletes them all.This interpretation acknowledges that maybe resonance is two or three separate resource pools thrown together to simplify the game mechanic. The activation pool provides charges to wands and wondrous items, the investment pool limits slots for wearing magic items, and the alchemist's infusion pool is spent to create cheap extracts. The three basic uses of resonance don't have to resemble each other and don't have a shared interpretation, because they are not the same thing. Magic items don't necessarily have to use resonance, so magic weapons ignoring resonance does not break this interpretation. Only the magic items that specifically require activate, invest, or infuse actions use resonance. Check the magic item's description for the keywords.
It makes sense.
Allow me to try a more "naturalistic" explanation.
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For an enchanted item to function, in many cases its wielder cannot just limit themselves to wave it around and expect something magical to happen. The truth is actually a little more complex than that.
Most magical items contain dormant energies that only awaken when someone (or something) imbues a tiny bit of their own magical potential into them, while at the same time allowing the eldritch currents within it to enter their body and mix with it. It sounds complicated, and yet, at the moment of contact with one of these devices, it's the most natural and intuitive thing to try, and requires but an instant of concentration. This process, within circles of scholars and thanks to the specialized jargon we have adopted from the most eminent alchemists, is called "investing the item with magical resonance", or simply "investing".
Other devices, like for instance many wands, don't require a wielder to invest right from the moment they are picked up, but whenever the individual wishes to make use of their powers, they need to draw from the object, while at the same time triggering it with an application of their own willpower, establishing a resonant magical current between the two physical entities. The same holds true for many legendary enchanted blades, which can strike true more easily than most other weapons simply thanks to their more permanent, inextricable properties, but require a resonant feedback loop to extricate their most stunning supernatural powers. This is usually called "activating a resonance", or "activating", for short, and in most cases lasts just enough as to express a single property of the object in question.
This is possible thanks to the little-known fact that every individual has within itself a normally untapped, imperceptible potential for magic, which in part depends on their natural force of personality, and as any acquired skill is impacted by their practical experience in drawing from it. In and of itself, though, this potential accomplishes nothing - it needs to enter a feedback cycle with a similarly inert enchanted object, which, in the same way, most often can't do anything without someone to impart a resonance to it.
This potential is not an infinite resource - although it can be increased with hands-on, active training and practice, and a more innately magical creature will be more effective in handling even numerous and powerful enchanted objects, this force can and will gradually be depleted by significant interaction with more and more magical devices, until further uses will become less assuredly successful, up to a point at which actually no more enchanted items will seem to work for that person, just as if they were absolutely mundane (if often high-quality) gear - although, again, eldritch items not requiring a resonant input might still have some effects just thanks to their already permanent properties.
The potential capability for interacting with magical items is usually called "latent aptitude for resonance feedback" (or more simply, just "resonance"), it can fluctuate wildly, and some talented alchemists are even able to make use of it to quickly craft composites which would normally be inert, but thanks to the investiture of resonance are actually as potent as any concoction brewed with time and patience in the comfort of a fully equipped laboratory.
Again, there are very few enchanted artefacts able to perform all their magical functions without any application of resonance - so always try and make sure to have some left, and if needed, "disinvest" an item to recover some of your inborn capabilities and then interact with the desired implement!
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... Yeah, and this concludes today's lesson. I don't know, I think I tried a bit too hard with the Albus Dumbledore tone. But perhaps it might be good for something.
And "too many things" is the inspiration for my eighth interpretation.Some of my tentative house-rules regarding Resonance include:
Just Double It: Sort of a stop-gap rule. You simply double the end result of the normal Resonance calculation. Resulting in a new range of between 2-10 RP. Easy to remember/apply, Good for Higher Fantasy, and most likely an option we'll see in the CRB for High-Magic genre emulation. The scaling may be too much at end-game though. With pools of up to 52 RP for Sorcerers and Bards.
Investment Pool: You provide the PCs (and NPCs) with a secondary Resonance Pool equal to 2 + (CHA Mod) which can only be spent to Invest in an item. Under this house-rule Weapons require Investment, and their properties cannot be used by anyone else for 24 hours (as per staves)*. Main problem is it brings back the magic item christmas tree.
Apportioned Recovery: You allow PCs to regain ⅛th of their total Resonance per hour spent resting. Excluding any Invested in items of course, which divest automatically after 24 hours. This rule has the least impact at low levels because a character with but 2 RP would have to rest for at least 4 hours to recover 1 RP.
*This will also squash that unintended "pass the magic dagger around to attack the Shadow/Ghost" exploit.
Just Double It seems to risk bringing about the magic items christmas tree you talk about (as does Investment Pool).
Investment Pool, with the 24h rule, solves the pass-the-dagger exploit... but is it desirable? Considering most people will have magic weapons perfectly capable to damage undead, and that passing around a dagger would waste *at the very least* 1 action for each pc, I'm not sure. Plus, it's pretty cool if you can disarm a baddie, grasp their staff or weapon and use them to attack them.
Apportioned Recovery uses a 1/8 fraction. 1/2 or even 1/4 would work in my opinion, but 1/8 is a little too much math-intensive. A table would be better at this point. But I'd still prefer to be able to easily calculate resonance recovery without too much math.
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Hmm, i'm curious how golarion lore is going to explain magic and culture with some of the charisma penalty races like dwarves and most 1st level monsters.
What's a good explanation as to why dwarves, or any race with a charisma penalty, make magical items when they can't use them?
Do merchants with magical wares just not go to dwarven or orcish towns?
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Hmm, i'm curious how golarion lore is going to explain magic and culture with some of the charisma penalty races like dwarves and most 1st level monsters.
What's a good explanation as to why dwarves, or any race with a charisma penalty, make magical items when they can't use them?
Do merchants with magical wares just not go to dwarven or orcish towns?
I think we've been told somewhere that your Resonance pool has a minimum size of 1, so even 1st-level folks with Cha <= 8 can use something.
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I think we've been told somewhere that your Resonance pool has a minimum size of 1, so even 1st-level folks with Cha <= 8 can use something.Hmm, i'm curious how golarion lore is going to explain magic and culture with some of the charisma penalty races like dwarves and most 1st level monsters.
What's a good explanation as to why dwarves, or any race with a charisma penalty, make magical items when they can't use them?
Do merchants with magical wares just not go to dwarven or orcish towns?
Oh, i haven't seen that tidbit. That would help a lot.
Their use of charisma "modifier" language rather than cha "bonus" language made it sound like they wanted to have pcs/creatures with no resonance pools.
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I think we've been told somewhere that your Resonance pool has a minimum size of 1, so even 1st-level folks with Cha <= 8 can use something.Hmm, i'm curious how golarion lore is going to explain magic and culture with some of the charisma penalty races like dwarves and most 1st level monsters.
What's a good explanation as to why dwarves, or any race with a charisma penalty, make magical items when they can't use them?
Do merchants with magical wares just not go to dwarven or orcish towns?
Oh, i haven't seen that tidbit. That would help a lot.
Their use of charisma "modifier" language rather than cha "bonus" language made it sound like they wanted to have pcs/creatures with no resonance pools.
Well, it makes a difference after 1st level. When that Cha 8 guy gets up to 2nd they still have a pool of 1, whereas with "bonus" they'd have 2. The "minimum 1" only kicks in at rock-bottom levels.
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Might also be worth noting that not all dwarves have charisma penalties anymore. Some will put their flexible ancestry boost into charisma for a net 0.
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Just Double It seems to risk bringing about the magic items christmas tree you talk about (as does Investment Pool).
Investment Pool, with the 24h rule, solves the pass-the-dagger exploit... but is it desirable? Considering most people will have magic weapons perfectly capable to damage undead, and that passing around a dagger would waste *at the very least* 1 action for each pc, I'm not sure. Plus, it's pretty cool if you can disarm a baddie, grasp their staff or weapon and use them to attack them.
Apportioned Recovery uses a 1/8 fraction. 1/2 or even 1/4 would work in my opinion, but 1/8 is a little too much math-intensive. A table would be better at this point. But I'd...
1) It does to a very minimal degree, but since those Extra RP don't come with any Extra Wealth... not so much. Mostly I expect that you'll be using consumables and activating items more liberally.
2) Well we already cannot take the staff, they require Investment... As for extending that rule to weapons... No, no we really don't. But I get the feeling most of us don't want to have to invest in Armor or Staves either.
I bundled those rules because the Investment Pool is only intended to help cover your "Vital Slots" without eating deeply into your Activation budget. I think weapons only got a free pass because being expected to Invest in up to three different weapons (melee, ranged, and back-up or shield) would have front-loaded your Investment costs too much. This felt like a fair way to pay for the extra RP, yet at the same time resolve one of my big complaints; that Investment of Vital Items was eating into your consumable item pool. And yes, there are other, more realistic rules for preventing "pass the dagger", that was just a side-benefit really.
Thinking about your comments makes me think that the Investment Pool might better serve it's purpose if it were a flat value (such as 4 points) so that the Dwarf Fighter can still Invest in the things they need (including weapons and armor), even if they'll never be able to Activate as many items as the Human Sorcerer. Characters who need fewer weapons (like spellcasters) still benefit too from being able to afford to Invest in Staves and other such items they are expected to keep in their golf-bags instead (like the Rogue and their Cloak of Elvenkind).
3) A table would be 'better'... but I hate referencing tables during play. If I wanted to deal with that as a player I'd be playing Rolemaster (aka Chartmaster).
Besides "I can't math" is a really poor excuse:
First because 1/8th isn't a hard calculation when the rules already have you resting in 8 hour increments by default. At 1st level you just note how many hours you need to rest at once to get 1 RP, and you won't have to think about the math again until you level up. For Example: A 1st level Human Sorcerer (with 5 RP) gets back 1 RP in 2 Hours spent resting. A 1st Level Dwarf Fighter (with 1 RP) gets back 1 RP in 8 Hours spent resting.
Second, even if you really can't math (kids play Pathfinder too!); smart phones and pocket calculators are a thing. It is not my fault if you're underequipped to play the game.
A better reason not to use Apportioned Recovery is that it will have the least impact when players need the extra RP most (at low-levels, because their CHA sucks, and/or when they are pressed for time).
Regardless, your analysis is appreciated. I haven't committed to any of these ideas yet. I plan to run the playtest per RAW first and adjust my proposals based upon my players comments.
1) It does to a very minimal degree, but since those Extra RP don't come with any Extra Wealth... not so much. Mostly I expect that you'll be using consumables and activating items more liberally.
I absolutely hadn't considered that! Well done!
I'm not used to calculating an npc's wealth and equip them accordingly, but if that's the way it will still work, it's pretty spot on.
2) Well we already cannot take the staff, they require Investment... As for extending that rule to weapons... No, no we really don't. But I get the feeling most of us don't want to have to invest in Armor or Staves either.
I bundled those rules because the Investment Pool is only intended to help cover your "Vital Slots" without eating deeply into your Activation budget. I think weapons only got a free pass because being expected to Invest in up to three different weapons (melee, ranged, and back-up or shield) would have front-loaded your Investment costs too much. This felt like a fair way to pay for the extra RP, yet at the same time resolve one of my big complaints; that Investment of Vital Items was eating into your consumable item pool. And yes, there are other, more realistic rules for preventing "pass the dagger", that was just a side-benefit really.
I know in PF1 we can't take the staff, I was hoping it would change in 2.
I agree with you, weapons got that free pass because how do you play an arsenal fighter or, say, Harsk? Or a marilith with levels, as an npc?
You're right, vital items use the same pool as your consumables. I think in theory, one would disinvest, use consumable, reinvest (afaik) - too awkward? Just stupid?
Thinking about your comments makes me think that the Investment Pool might better serve it's purpose if it were a flat value (such as 4 points) so that the Dwarf Fighter can still Invest in the things they need (including weapons and armor), even if they'll never be able to Activate as many items as the Human Sorcerer. Characters who need fewer weapons (like spellcasters) still benefit too from being able to afford to Invest in Staves and other such items they are expected to keep in their golf-bags instead (like the Rogue and their Cloak of Elvenkind).
Yes, flat value would nicely bring down to par the pools of sorcerers and bards, good idea!
A table would be 'better'... but I hate referencing tables during play. If I wanted to deal with that as a player I'd be playing Rolemaster (aka Chartmaster).
We'd probably be able to learn that table by heart...
Besides "I can't math" is a really poor excuse:
First because 1/8th isn't a hard calculation when the rules already have you resting in 8 hour increments by default. At 1st level you just note how many hours you need to rest at once to get 1 RP, and you won't have to think about the math again until you level up. For Example: A 1st level Human Sorcerer (with 5 RP) gets back 1 RP in 2 Hours spent resting. A 1st Level Dwarf Fighter (with 1 RP) gets back 1 RP in 8 Hours spent resting.
Eyes already glazing over, but the real point is, these will be homebrews for your own group - so if you're all on board, I don't need to be able to keep up *shrugs*
Second, even if you really can't math (kids play Pathfinder too!); smart phones and pocket calculators are a thing. It is not my fault if you're underequipped to play the game.
A better reason not to use Apportioned Recovery is that it will have the least impact when players need the extra RP most (at low-levels, because their CHA sucks, and/or when they are pressed for time).
I think of smart phones and calculators the same way you think of charts! X)
Regardless, your analysis is appreciated. I haven't committed to any of these ideas yet. I plan to run the playtest per RAW first and adjust my proposals based upon my players comments.
I agree, that would be the best option to give the most valuable feedback. Of course you can change it after a couple sessions if you find it too annoying, and tell the devs what you did and how it worked. And you're welcome, very glad to have been even of marginal help! *curtsies*
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You're right, vital items use the same pool as your consumables. I think in theory, one would disinvest, use consumable, reinvest (afaik) - too awkward? Just stupid?
I get the feeling Divesting an Item to reclaim it's Resonance won't be allowed, because of how it would interact with the Overspending rules.
It would allow me to Divest an Item (preferably one with a 1/day charge I've already used), Quaff a Potion with the automatically reclaimed RP, Overspend to Reinvest another item. Over. And Over. Until I've critically failed. Then I 'force' someone else to wand me, and call it an adventuring day... Not a very heroic narrative.
To balance it you'd have to require a flat check to Divest... which would defeat the purpose of trying to Divest an Item avoid overspending on the potion.
You're right, vital items use the same pool as your consumables. I think in theory, one would disinvest, use consumable, reinvest (afaik) - too awkward? Just stupid?I get the feeling Divesting an Item to reclaim it's Resonance won't be allowed, because of how it would interact with the Overspending rules.
It would allow me to Divest an Item (preferably one with a 1/day charge I've already used), Quaff a Potion with the automatically reclaimed RP, Overspend to Reinvest another item. Over. And Over. Until I've critically failed. Then I 'force' someone else to wand me, and call it an adventuring day... Not a very heroic narrative.
To balance it you'd have to require a flat check to Divest... which would defeat the purpose of trying to Divest an Item avoid overspending on the potion.
I hadn't thought through the ramifications, as I'm apparently wont to do.
So when you divest (thanks for the correction!), you don't regain your invested resonance until you sleep/rest, right? Because you *should* be able to divest - you don't want the same magic item to stick to you and munch on your resonance forever...
Per RAW (as hinted) you would automatically Divest all items the moment you regain your Resonance (after resting for 8 hours). Divesting earlier would be somewhat punishing if the GM runs random encounters or the party is ever ambushed while resting, so despite being 'realistic' there are few instances where it would be fair to make players pay that cost. Wost case scenario a player could end up 'forced' to Invest in something twice!
As a house-rule I might let a player reclaim an invested Resonance point early if the player willingly gives someone an invested item and that someone willingly Invests in it.
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It has occurred to me it might be fun to think of resonance use as (though this idea is ridiculously close to as implied by the idea in the first place) as using the body's innate magical fields to do things, often with context to itself.
Potions and elixirs use innate resonance to accelerate healing, or to alter biology in other potentially magic harnessing ways. Vorpal sword gives the equivalent of a massive adrenaline boost and temporary muscle enhancement in order to let you cleave effortlessly through bone. Armour you invest in taps into your nervous system to improve Will and Reflex saves. Other items just convert it straight into usable magic.
Past a point your body just simply can't give any more.
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Hmm, i'm curious how golarion lore is going to explain magic and culture with some of the charisma penalty races like dwarves and most 1st level monsters.
What's a good explanation as to why dwarves, or any race with a charisma penalty, make magical items when they can't use them?
Do merchants with magical wares just not go to dwarven or orcish towns?
Norse mythology ties dwarves to the forging of magic items, such as Thor's hammer Mjolnir and the Ring of the Nibelung. These were the most renowned of the dwarven smiths, which implies a level with more than a single resonance, despite a Charism penalty. Nevertheless, an impression that dwarves shun magic items will conflict with the mythology about dwarves.
Thorin Oakenshield had no trouble claiming the magic Elven sword Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver, from the troll horde in The Hobbit. But weapons don't require resonance. Maybe that is the key: dwarves have affinity for magic items that don't require resonance, such as magic weapons. I wonder how that could be represented as a dwarven ancestral ability.
Hmm, i'm curious how golarion lore is going to explain magic and culture with some of the charisma penalty races like dwarves and most 1st level monsters.
What's a good explanation as to why dwarves, or any race with a charisma penalty, make magical items when they can't use them?
Do merchants with magical wares just not go to dwarven or orcish towns?
Norse mythology ties dwarves to the forging of magic items, such as Thor's hammer Mjolnir and the Ring of the Nibelung. These were the most renowned of the dwarven smiths, which implies a level with more than a single resonance, despite a Charism penalty. Nevertheless, an impression that dwarves shun magic items will conflict with the mythology about dwarves.
Thorin Oakenshield had no trouble claiming the magic Elven sword Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver, from the troll horde in The Hobbit. But weapons don't require resonance. Maybe that is the key: dwarves have affinity for magic items that don't require resonance, such as magic weapons. I wonder how that could be represented as a dwarven ancestral ability.
Maybe I'm mixing something up but aren't D&D legacy dwarves traditionally bad with magic, even though the mythical origins are good with it?
Maybe I'm mixing something up but aren't D&D legacy dwarves traditionally bad with magic, even though the mythical origins are good with it?
I recall playing an edition of D&D where dwarf wizards were supposed to be rare due to a cultural distrust of arcana. They had no objection to divine magic. Pathfinder did not carry on that piece of dwarven lore.
You're right, vital items use the same pool as your consumables. I think in theory, one would disinvest, use consumable, reinvest (afaik) - too awkward? Just stupid?I get the feeling Divesting an Item to reclaim it's Resonance won't be allowed, because of how it would interact with the Overspending rules.
It would allow me to Divest an Item (preferably one with a 1/day charge I've already used), Quaff a Potion with the automatically reclaimed RP, Overspend to Reinvest another item. Over. And Over. Until I've critically failed. Then I 'force' someone else to wand me, and call it an adventuring day... Not a very heroic narrative.
To balance it you'd have to require a flat check to Divest... which would defeat the purpose of trying to Divest an Item avoid overspending on the potion.
The only difference between divesting a worn magic item to drink a potion and overspending to re-invest in the item and overspending to drink the potion directly is whether the character is gambling with the potion or with the use of the magic item.
The once-per-day ability on an invested item is another matter. That is like the old Quickrunner's Shirt, use a once-a-day item and then switch to a duplicate for a second time per day. If divesture exists, investment won't help prevent swaps. Yet if divesture is not allowed, investing the duplicate item merely costs another resonance. Sigh, I had hoped that resonance would get rid of requirements that certain items must be worn for 24 hours, but if a character has spare resonance, then investment does not prevent switching to a second item that does the same thing.
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Maybe I'm mixing something up but aren't D&D legacy dwarves traditionally bad with magic, even though the mythical origins are good with it?
Yes that is correct.
In AD&D dwarves were non-magical and weren't allowed to be mages (but were allowed to be a clerics). They also received a save bonus of +5 (if Con was 18) vs wands, staves, rods, and spells.
Thus the origin of the Hardy trait and partially the reason that some players associate dwarves and clerics because the lore explained their magical forging by using cleric magic.
Edit: Added dnd 2nd ed info
In 2nd Ed they added poison resistance to their hardiness and a 20% malfunction chance for magic items "not specifically suited to the character's class".
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Norse mythology ties dwarves to the forging of magic items, such as Thor's hammer Mjolnir and the Ring of the Nibelung. These were the most renowned of the dwarven smiths, which implies a level with more than a single resonance, despite a Charism penalty. Nevertheless, an impression that dwarves shun magic items will conflict with the mythology about dwarves.
This is true, but I don't think -1 Resonance as compared to humans or elves is enough to be a huge penalty in regards to usage that it would even decrease their total magic item consumption in total.
From a mythological perspective, they're also notable for creating items rather than unsing them, and creating an item costs no Resonance.
Thorin Oakenshield had no trouble claiming the magic Elven sword Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver, from the troll horde in The Hobbit. But weapons don't require resonance. Maybe that is the key: dwarves have affinity for magic items that don't require resonance, such as magic weapons. I wonder how that could be represented as a dwarven ancestral ability.
Dwarves are, in D&D style fantasy, traditionally associated with magic weapons, shields, and armor. Of those, based on what we've seen, only armor seems to require Resonance investment. That's one point of investment for all the traditional Dwarven items put together. Maybe two at high level if you think they're also associated with stat-boost items (which they are in many ways). But that's 2 Resonance at 14th level and not a huge stretch.
Conversation in the How to Not use Resonance thread led to another interpretation of resoance, in comment #39 by KingOfAnything and later went back to in comment #106, calling it resonance as metaphysical encumbrance. Graystone pointed out, "For me, that falls apart with consumable," but by coincidence, when RicoTheBold in the Is the Problem Unlimited Use of Consumables directed me to resonance as encumbrance, he also joked about resonance as vitamins. That provided the missing ingredient (pun intended) to fit consumables into this interpretation.
9) Resonance as vital encumbrance
When a character uses a magic item, it resonances with that character's life force. Each resonance has its own pitch, but too many resonances interfere with each other and block out the use of further magic items. As the person grows more experienced, he or she can accommodate more different resonances.
This resembles resonance as tolerance, but it justifies no further use--or use only on a lucky roll-of magic items overencumbered on resonance rather than harm to the person. This resembled resonance as attunement, except that encumbrance does not fit activation and consumables. To understand encumberance by consumables, consider drinking a potion. When drunk, the potion occupies space (pitch) in the life force. When does that occupancy end? Even after the magic in the potion no longer has an effect, the potion is still in the digestive system or even in the blood. It still resonants. For activation, view it as ringing a bell. The bell stays ringing long after the clapper struck it.
Divesture is not possible. The body retains resonance even if an invested item is removed.
For convenience, rather than giving a duration to each resonance, we say that the body cleans up the residue of resonance while sleeping. Use of magic items requires 8 hours of sleep to free up resonance, except for magic items worn while sleeping, which retain their resonance and do not require fresh resonance. Or we could even make it just 2 hours of rest, no sleep required, to allow the short rest for healing motif. Unlike wizards who require 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep (I learned the limits of interruption recently and am glad I never had to use them), interrupting the sleep to stand watch causes no problem with restoring resonance, so long as the sleep totals 8 hours. We need people willing to volunteer to take the midnight shift in standing watch.
The alchemist's Quick Alchemy ability uses up resonance because handling the magical reagents without slow anti-resonance procedures sets up resonance in the alchemist's body, a resonance that later renders the potion inert. And the reason that drinking the Quick Alchemy potion does not cost further resonance is because the potion is already resonanting with the alchemist. Why the Quick Alchemy potion won't use up resonace if someone else drinks it is a mystery. Let's call this mystery "cross-resonance," and maybe find a way to exploit it for other magic items.
Magical weapons don't use up resonance because of the held-further-from-the-body excuse. Magical traps don't require resonance from their victims because their pitch is set to painfully blast through resonance. Careful attention to the vibrations of resonance can train a trap sense that detects magical traps.
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9) Resonance as vital encumbrance....
While the example of potion resonating in the life force digestive system is reasonable, My mind cries out “but why doesn't the same spell cast from a PC, scroll or other source not bother the target’s resonating encumbrance?”
For scrolls and spells, it could be reasoned that the resonating encumbrance is carried by the caster, and that they have some quantum entanglement with he target maintains the magical vibration. Of course, spells cast by PCs have their resonance built in. My mind: ”But what happens to ongoing magic when the resonance life force of the caster is snuffed out?”
Which reminds me what about the other type of potions, oils that are used on non living objects? Does the one who applies it pay the resonance?
9) Resonance as vital encumbrance....While the example of potion resonating in the life force digestive system is reasonable, My mind cries out “but why doesn't the same spell cast from a PC, scroll or other source not bother the target’s resonating encumbrance?”
For scrolls and spells, it could be reasoned that the resonating encumbrance is carried by the caster, and that they have some quantum entanglement with he target maintains the magical vibration. Of course, spells cast by PCs have their resonance built in. My mind: ”But what happens to ongoing magic when the resonance life force of the caster is snuffed out?”
Which reminds me what about the other type of potions, oils that are used on non living objects? Does the one who applies it pay the resonance?
In this thread, I am trying to interpret the resonance rules as I have seen them (which I hope matches the rules as written, but I have not seen the written rules yet). As far as I know, activating a scroll costs resonance, so under resonance as vital encumbrance the activation creates one resonance in the caster's body that lingers long after the scroll is gone. The scroll, not the spell on the scroll, costs resonance. The metaphor I am using is acoustic ringing rather than quantum entanglement. Referring to quantum mechanics does not make explanations easier.
As for oils, the user rubs them on his or her hands before rubbing them on the object. Even with gloves or a rubbing cloth preventing contact with skin, that is close enough to cost resonance.
Spells do not cost resonance. If magic has not been attached to an item, then it costs spell points or spell slots. Unless it is a cantrip, which costs nothing. Unless the cantrip is on a scroll, then the scroll costs resonance even though the spell costs nothing. This gets convoluted.
We would need less tortured reasoning to maintain our suspension of belief if Paizo had copied resonance from a well-written fantasy novel, like TSR copied Vancian casting from Jack Vance's The Dying Earth. I looked more at the pregenerated characters posted at ENWorld. Fumbus the goblin alchemist is the only character sheet that mentions resonance, where it serves only as spell points for Quick Alchemy. This hints that maybe resonance was an alchemist-only ability that Paizo later expanded to other uses. That would explain why the alchemist has an Int bonus to resonance instead of a Cha bonus to resonance--the Int bonus came first.
In this thread, I am trying to interpret the resonance rules ...
I agree that it would greatly help the with the acceptance of Resonace rules and have been following this thread and appreciate the ideas.
Let me share a fun off the wall interpretation:
Explaining Resonance and why Resonance is Chr based:
Magic is actually an exotic life form that occupies several dimension some of which overlap with ours. Let's call them Essence elementals. Essences are difficult to communicate with, but they have learned to create magic effects in response to patterns, gestures, words, runes, mixtures, and thoughts in our world. These Essences have a complicated value system in their world where they earn a token which functions like baseball cards. They earn a Token every time they interact with a creature by performing magic in our world in response to a pattern. A token from a more renowned and charismatic creature in our world is in higher demand in their economy. As a creature in our world call upon more of these Essences via patterns within a single day they dilute the market for their Tokens. With too much supply for the demand the Essences may refuse to trade magic effects or may stop trading for the tokens completely. Lucky the Essences token market resets every day.
In our world we call these Tokens Resonance.