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I am finding that the difficulty with 4 players and not using the scale downs in the adventures is still way too easy for the most part combat wise. The skill challenges and other parts seem right on par and are challenging for my players but the actual combat encounters seem to be a breeze and my players are starting to sense that. I am going to start upping HP and some other things myself but I think it would be nice just like there is scaledowns if there was some kind of increased difficulty options for combat encounters.
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I suspect the powers that be decided to ere on the side of caution for the beginning of the campaign. Better to have to ramp things up than down. Especially when no one, even the authors, were experience with the rules. And while most of my experiences agree with you I can vouch for the fact that On the Trail of History played with 3 5s & a 4 is brutal. Which is part of the problem. It is difficult to make a mod that is challenging at Tier 5-6 for 6 6th-level players without making it deadly to a party that barely qualifies to play it at that tier.
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I am going to start upping HP and some other things myself
GMs may use other Starfinder sources to add flavor the the scenario, but may not change the mechanics of encounters. Specifically, the mechanics of an encounter are the creatures presented, the number of opponents in the encounter, and the information written into the stat blocks for those opponents.
but I think it would be nice just like there is scaledowns if there was some kind of increased difficulty options for combat encounters.
The start of the campaign has been a little bit “softball” (I think Thurston acknowledged that somewhere). It’s a case of erring on the easier side rather than the more difficult. So as not to drive off players by killing low-level characters. Pretty sure we will see things get more difficult from here on out.
Personally, I’ve enjoyed the relative ease. Even on the “easy” side it still usually isn’t possible to end encounters in just a round or two. So everything has had a more “cinematic” feel. Players aren’t getting caught in analysis paralysis because they can just do something fun instead of always seeking out the best choice.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Central Europe
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Personal opinion:
The 1-4 are a bit too easy for my and my players' taste but i think the difficulty of the 3-6 is just right .
My players did On the Trail of History with 2 lvl 6, 1 lvl 5, and a lvl 4 pregen and were very happy about the challenge. They felt it was just right, forcing them to use most of their resources but not overwhelming.
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Also keep in mind that starfinder has a mode most starfinder society players aren't aware of: resolve tanking. Unlike pathfinder where you drop and you're out of the fight you can keep spending resolve pretty much no matter how hard you're hit to get back in the game and stay in it (its doubly nuts if you have a mystic spamming stabalize)
For a crash course in this , play dead suns 1...
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I tried doing that with my TM in my first SFS game and the party went crazy trying to heal me. I was like, "Why are you wasting your actions healing me? I have full resolve. I can get back up. Kill the thing."
To be fair, if you're on the ground against a boss, the boss can full attack you and burn you out of 2 resolve a round with a 99% success rate. Getting you on your feet and around a corner becomes a priority at that point.
Starfinder Society Developer
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I fully admit that this continues to be a learning trend for us. I recognize that Tier 1-4 can be a VERY tricky place for us to do balancing right now, because one misstep and we end up with some infamous deadly "intro" scenario, which is something I'd sorely like to avoid for awhile.
Tier 5-8 provides a lot of fun opportunities for us to mess with difficult opponents and encounters. Tier 3-6 is giving us some areas to mess around with as well. Overall, the difficulty curve is an ongoing learning experience where I'm trying to see what works and what doesn't work in terms of what different parties can handle in the course of a session.
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I suspect the powers that be decided to ere on the side of caution for the beginning of the campaign. Better to have to ramp things up than down. Especially when no one, even the authors, were experience with the rules. And while most of my experiences agree with you I can vouch for the fact that On the Trail of History played with 3 5s & a 4 is brutal. Which is part of the problem. It is difficult to make a mod that is challenging at Tier 5-6 for 6 6th-level players without making it deadly to a party that barely qualifies to play it at that tier.
Heck, we played 3-4 tier for On the Trail of History with two 5s, two 4, and two 3s, and that starship encounter nearly blew us out of the sky(though we stupidly decided to use the Sunrise Maiden, not grokking that all of her weapons are short range). The final encounter was kinda a breeze, and we didn't even fight the second encounter because my character managed to resolve it without making an attack. I suspect that the tier 5-6 final battle would have been a lot more to worry about.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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I’m actually glad that Thursty and John are balancing things where they are. I’ve terrified players with 1-03 and there is at least one other adventure this season other than On the Trail of History that could really kill people. Oh and did we forget Dead Suns 1 and its final battle? That was terrifying for me as a GM — there were a couple points where I was certain I was going to wipe the party. I like where the difficulty level has been because it has been encouraging quirky and fun builds rather than ones scoped for power.
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Some things I have noticed regarding balance:
1) SFS newness doesn’t just make it hard to balance encounters, it makes it hard to balance characters (due to the natural effect of its newness means limited rules and thus limited choices). For example, in PFS I have a Bard that is mostly designed for buffing and debuffing but he can call on Thunder Call or a UMD’d Wand of Fireballs if we have a sudden loss of damage dealers. Neither of these significantly effect his design as a buffer/debuffer, they are just options he can pull out in an emergency because sometimes you just need to do damage. In SFS, however, my Envoy doesn’t really have options like that. If I wanted her to be able to do damage in an emergency, I would have either had to build her as a damage dealer, straight up, or pay exorbitant amounts of money on 1 shot items like high level grenades.
2) Due to its Sci-Fi nature, in SFS there is a natural tendency to go towards ranged weapons, albeit, melee is the best way at early levels to be a serious damage dealer. This means a lower percentage of front liners which makes squishy characters more vulnerable than they would be in PFS. This also means the harsh ranged cover rules are even more debilitating to the PCs than you would normally expect.
3) The monsters almost always hit better than the PCs. If fact, it is possible to fight creatures who are lower level than you whose chance to hit is impossible for your character to achieve. Given how many effective HP Starfinder characters have, it balances out, with some notable exceptions. First, it means the monsters still have a very good chance of hitting when they full attack. Second, it makes having an AC that the monsters miss even half the time a very expensive proposition. Third, is just how nasty poisons and drugs are in the game. Given that it takes days to recover from the effects of poison if you don’t have access to Remove Affliction which you don’t get until 7th level (compared to 3rd level access to Lessor Restoration in PFS). This means that failing even one Poison save can seriously debilitate your character for an entire adventure, and getting mobbed by poison creatures can quickly take out or even kill the toughest tank.
4) My local gameday group is about half dedicated and half casual players. This tends to lead to a disparity of 2 levels between the two groups which means we usually play down. This has given us a false sense of safety, which is why playing at Tier 5-6 with 4 5s & a 4 was particularly harsh. I am a firm believer in giving the players an easy time at low levels and then ramping it up as they get more proficient with the system, but the increase needs to be gradual or the PCs get killed by the sudden transition. I am not accusing SFS of this as there simply aren’t enough examples, but it is a point of note.
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I’m actually glad that Thursty and John are balancing things where they are. I’ve terrified players with 1-03 and there is at least one other adventure this season other than On the Trail of History that could really kill people. Oh and did we forget Dead Suns 1 and its final battle? That was terrifying for me as a GM — there were a couple points where I was certain I was going to wipe the party. I like where the difficulty level has been because it has been encouraging quirky and fun builds rather than ones scoped for power.
Dead suns I is meant to have the final fight by level 2 characters. And its a DEATH BATTLE for them. Level 1s are going to die. I mentioned it as an intro to resolve tanking for a reason.
Play it in campaign mode, let people make level 2 versions of their PFS characters and run through like that. Don't do it in society mode with level 1s: they'll be a jackson pollock painting in that final fight (literally)
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When Clara and the goblins survive and are still with the PCs things turn out much better.
One method to do this is by introducing the three goblins in the first scene, caught in the crossfire and one of them wounded as they haul repair parts to their vessel. There, the father is wounded and his children scream for help. Or his daughter and her fiance, etc. It humanizes the goblins early and IMHO is great for setting the game's tone for new Starfinder players.
Second, Clara as a fully-rounded NPC with a personality and sense of self-preservation. Clara isn't just a badass, she's a badass for hire.
During Combat The garaggakal initially attacks its foes in melee combat with its lamprey-like bite to get a “taste” of its prey, but if reduced to fewer than 60 Hit Points, it keeps its distance and uses its life leech ability to bolster itself. If anyone deals electricity damage to the garaggakal, it turns on them to take out the greatest threat. If its victims try to run away, the garaggakal pursues them throughout the Drift Rock, using its phase through ability as needed to catch them or cut them off.
Morale If reduced to fewer than 25 Hit Points, the garaggakal attempts to flee, phasing through walls if necessary.
I randomly roll each round which race the garaggakal will taste next until it takes 15 HP of damage and switches to life leech, or its hit with an electric attack as described.
Its morale is overlooked far too often, too. It has 75 hit points, when its below 25 (1/3 or less left) it phases and flees through walls. It doesn't have the ability to heal itself except through many days of rest, combat is over.
Sure, a level 1 PC can go down with one hit - but they should have resolve left to stabilize. The garaggakal will never life leach a creature with 0 or 1 hit points remaining because they don't have the life to spare!
I've run this in society mode numerous times now and I've never seen a PC die. It just scares the piss out of them, as well it should!
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Adding NPCs under questionable circumstances to double the size of the party does not remotely make your argument. That your solution is going to such lengths makes mine.
It IS survivable but the dm would have to let you
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Also keep in mind that starfinder has a mode most starfinder society players aren't aware of: resolve tanking. Unlike pathfinder where you drop and you're out of the fight you can keep spending resolve pretty much no matter how hard you're hit to get back in the game and stay in it (its doubly nuts if you have a mystic spamming stabalize)
For a crash course in this , play dead suns 1...
I did, and also ran it.
It is worth mentioning, that some classes have significantly less resolve than others, though I could count the number of times I send someone dying on one had.
Actually, that first AP was a local wakeup call - sickened is not fun at low levels with a weapon that only does a d4 - and now almost all character upgrade from a small arm ASAP (except operatives) which is a real change.
Low levels in Starfinder are a bit weird, particularly with melee having such a "huge" static damage bonus. Though as someone who usually ends up in front getting others do to so as well has been challenging. I literally could not "resolve tank" since I will need my resolve to refill my stamina between battles.
In the AP group where I get to play, hit point damage is actually rather rare (though hour envoy is responsible for that) we don't have a mystic, but the medic skills or our operative do get used a lot. We just try to kill enemies quickly, though my ranged Solarian build ended up as a switch-hitter after book 3... and I really like exploding ^^
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Our previous debate regarding the dwarves in #1-09 exhasted my interest in further discussion with you
Then Don't.
If you don't think AP1 is survivable then don't run it.
OR I could point out to other people that it's meant to be a tough fight for level two characters. It says its supposed to be for level 2 characters, and organized plays weird campaign rules allow it to be played by level 2 characters even if the players are completely new. So people can run it AND not have a pile of corpses. Because it IS a very good introduction into the starfinder society the way it's meant to be played.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Dead suns I is meant to have the final fight by level 2 characters. And its a DEATH BATTLE for them. Level 1s are going to die. I mentioned it as an intro to resolve tanking for a reason.
Play it in campaign mode, let people make level 2 versions of their PFS characters and run through like that. Don't do it in society mode with level 1s: they'll be a jackson pollock painting in that final fight (literally)
You can only run it in campaign mode if you intend to run the entire AP.
Alternatively, if you are participating in the Dead Suns Adventure Path with an ongoing group undertaking the entire, six-chapter campaign, you may receive credit for playing the adventures as if you had played a pregenerated character. In this case, GMs running the Adventure Path are not bound to the rules of the Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild campaign when running the campaign. Starfinder Society characters and characters from an ongoing Adventure Path campaign may not play in the same adventure.
Since you can play it at level 2 as often as you like, I recommend playing it with as many level 2 characters as you can.
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Actually, that first AP was a local wakeup call - sickened is not fun at low levels with a weapon that only does a d4 - and now almost all character upgrade from a small arm ASAP (except operatives) which is a real change.
If it is a wakeup call that even those who don't start with better than Small Arms Proficiency need to immediately upgrade to something better, then it is a wakeup call that any class that doesn't start with better than Small Arms Proficiency isn't balanced in the system.
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Starfinder Society Developer
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As I want to keep this thread on topic... please be aware that the Adventure Paths are more of a "bolt-on" to Organized Play and are in NO WAY written to be run using Org Play rules. Many of the authors and developers associated with adventure paths tend to have little/no Organized Play experience, and as a result, these products tend to be geared to home games. So when we're discussing the difficulty of Organized Play, it's something of a deviation for us to be talking about the Adventure Path installments.
I recognize that many see Dead Suns #1 in SFS mode to be a deadly kill-fest. In fact, much of that is a result of us essentially porting over the Pathfinder Society sanctioning rules, as we'd yet to see how Adventure Paths would work in a Starfinder Society setting. While it's not ideal, we don't really have the time to make adjustments to Adventure Paths as part of our sanctioning process. In fact, I'm more of the mindset of getting Adventure Paths sanctioned as quickly as possible.
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*awaits the incoming flood of "But where's Adventures 4/5/6, Thursty!?"*
(But seriously, I adore all of you.)
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Also keep in mind that starfinder has a mode most starfinder society players aren't aware of: resolve tanking. Unlike pathfinder where you drop and you're out of the fight you can keep spending resolve pretty much no matter how hard you're hit to get back in the game and stay in it (its doubly nuts if you have a mystic spamming stabalize)
For a crash course in this , play dead suns 1...
Until you resolve tank to stand up with 1hp and suffer massive damage and go from possibly needing an unconscious body (or bodies) recovered to needing recovery and resurrection.
Massive Damage
If you take damage from a single attack that reduces you to 0 HP and there is damage remaining, you die instantly if the remaining damage is equal to or greater than your maximum Hit Points. If you take damage from a single attack equal to or greater than your maximum Hit Points while you have 0 current HP, you die.
Suppose Navasi has a maximum of 22 HP, but she currently has 5 HP and 0 SP. She takes 30 damage from an enemy. Navasi is reduced to 0 HP, with 25 damage remaining. Since this damage is greater than her maximum Hit Points, Navasi dies.
Also, don’t forget that resolve tanking requires 2 points of resolve. If you fall below 25% of your maximum resolve, you cannot self-stabilize and may end up dead anyway. I’m glad it worked for you against the Garaggakal (spelling?) but it should certainly be weighed against the possibility of withdrawal.