Something I do as a player (and encourage as a GM) is to provide some degree of explanation RP as to each and every mechanical aspect of the character; feats, skill points, ability score etc. should say something about the character, whether it be their history, beliefs, hobbies, goals and so on. It won't necessarily stop powergaming/optimisation but it will help flesh out characters and get players thinking about stuff other than optimisation.
I personally would refrain from preventing a player from playing something purely on the basis of "it's op". I would say no if what they want makes zero sense e.g. the Blood Money spell is often banned because it breaks the game but I would say no to its use on the basis of it being ancient and forgotten magic which is found only in one obscure location; at some point I might even use this spell as a reward.
If they enjoy playing optimised characters then why not run an optimised campaign? Remember: whatever they throw at you, you can throw right back at them and more. A potential way to counter a party that is highly optimised for combat and easily destroying you encounters is just reskin their characters and use them as NPCs, though this should be a last resort. Something you should avoid doing is coming up with overly contrived situations that just so happen to specifically counter player abilities. To repeat what I've said in a different thread:
Keep in mind that you don't want to insert encounters that seem suspiciously geared towards countering/negating specific player abilities. I've had it happen to me a few times: I use Create Pit and Wall of Fire to destroy a load of zombies, in the next session we just so happen to fight flying undead that are immune to fire.
All I'm saying is you should make it seem organic. How you do this depends on your campaign. In the right scenario it's entirely feasible that,for example, a criminal organisation with sufficient resources would learn something about the group that keeps disrupting their operations (e.g. the group has magic) and take precautions (hire specialist mercs). You could outright explain this in a note found on a body or something. In this hypothetical campaign I would let they players know that were they to take steps to cover their tracks, their opponents would have a harder time adapting to the parties skills and tactics.
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I definitely don't want it to be a "Your fun is wrong" type of discussion but because they have all played for so long they I feel as though they are all about optimization over actual fun.
It still kinda sounds like they're having fun with optimizing and you think their fun is "wrong". I don't know what your "actual fun" involves, but I suspect it's still possible with optimized characters.
If you are creating the opposition (as opposed to trying to run a prewritten adventure with minimal changes) a good starting point is a conversation with your players just to make sure everyone is on the same page - if you talk half your group into making "quirky but not too powerful" characters but the other half make minimaxed titans, that's a worse problem than all of them being too strong.
Ways to counter "game-breaking" builds:
(1) More enemies. (Slumber Hex might instantly KO the big scary giant, but isn't so effective against five big scary giants.)
(2) Stronger enemies. (If your AC is impossible for a CR 10 dragon to hit, what about a CR 14 dragon?)
(3) Magical enemies that can negate (or copy) the PCs' special powers.
(4) "Hey, that metamagic rod is breaking the game to the point of not being fun any more. Shall we say it just burned out and you find another object of equivalent value in the next room?"
Even if the all minmax the same quality, if they max in different directions your campaign can easily suffer. I've dealt with this before, and my solution was to go cakewalk. I told them flat out at the beginning, I'll be going CR appropriate at all times. If you want to build to hit targets 95% of time that's fine. If you want to build to be immune to damage that's fine. If you do these things, you can and will make short work of nearly every combat, trivialize your party members, and feel like you're cheating. Enjoy your curbstomp on easy mode and focus on the story if that's how you want to play it. If you tone down the optimization you can have more flavorful feats, you don't have to be built as a one-shot hyper optimized walking great axe and you'll have more fun if you invest in some story feats and craft:baskets once in a while.
The party got to about level 3, realized it was getting way too easy and I wasn't budging towards high numbers, and decided to self regulate because I as a DM was not forcing them to become insanely strong super quickly. The difficulty didn't require min-maxing, the players didn't min-max.
Your mileage may vary.
Nicely done.
The best advice I can offer is to not worry too much about knowing every rule by heart. If your group are friends of yours just make it known up front that you may flub a few things and if they can help they're welcome to. Having said that, don't allow a rules lawyer to control your game.
Also, don't invoke house rules until you're comfortable with the RAW. House rules are fine and dandy, but you shouldn't make them as a new GM until you're ready and have also discussed them with the rest of the party.
If you have a bunch of veterans and their sole purpose is to break your campaign, I'd seriously have a conversation with them about that. This is called powergaming, and it's typically unfair to the other players(unless they're powergaming as well) and it can cause a lot of stress for the DM. You're trying to create encounters that are sinuous to this world, but powergamers can consistently hulksmash through your encounters while other players will be quite challenged by your encounters.
But honestly, if all your players are powergaming, then the problem of powergaming becomes much less of an issue. Because if they're all doing it, you just up the CR of your encounters. You can elevate the encounters by adding more mobs, or by having mobs that are not CR appropriate to their APL, etc., and this can be easily done with an app called Combat Manager.
Combat Manager allows you to custom create mobs and either nerf or buff them. You could even take a level 1 mob and use the buffing/advancements to make him into a CR20 if you wanted.
Another thing, even if they are powergaming, every character has a weakness. Bad will save or bad CMD or can't fly, or something. You should exploit these weaknesses (metagaming) with your intelligent mobs (but not with your dumb ones). You figure a mob with a 20 intelligence is like Einstein and able to make exceptional leaps in logic; a mob with 20int may as well have your PC's character sheet right in front of him. So don't feel bad about "meta-gaming" with intelligent mobs.
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Yea, if they are all on the same “power level” with each other, just turn up the CR.People say this but in practice I found it to be flawed. For example, a Rage Demon is a CR11 mob that is Will save or paralyze for a level 9 party.
Hezrou's the same for a level 8 party.
In other words, higher CR mobs that have more AC/saves/hit points/AB/damage? That works.
Higher CR mobs with abilities that are level dependent? Sometimes a massive issue.
I've run into this same problem with upping the CR of an encounter with using higher level mobs. This is why I use Combat Manager app. If the party is APL11, I can take a CR10 or CR11 mob and simply advance them with the app into a CR13/14/15 mob. By doing this style of advancement, the saves for his spells don't go up and the mob itself doesn't actually level up either, but his + to Attack, AC, Saves and HP goes up, and thus gains a higher CR.
It creates balanced encounters for the PC's because they don't have impossible saves vs the mob's spells/abilities, but they still get the challenge from extra HP and being harder to hit (ac/saves go up) and the mob has a better chance of hitting the PC's as well.
Make sure they build their characters properly. Start at first level with a 15 point build and go from there. I wouldn't suggest limiting what type of builds the players can play as that is part of the fun of the game. Some players love designing whacky characters, so there's no need to rob them of that joy.
Just focus on keeping the game balanced. Start with the lower levels with a proper stat array and everything else should fall into place.
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There is a certain flavour of optimizer that enjoys taking concepts that are normally not very powerful (eg dwarven bard, dagger-wielding inquisitor of Pharasma) and making them work.
If you are concerned with your ability to adjust for a high-power group, you might consider asking the players if they are up for starting with more challenging concepts.
I’m not sure exactly what a “mob” is.
Slang from World of Warcraft (and therefore irritating to certain tabletop gamers). Derived from "Mobile Object". Means a non-player entity whose primary purpose is to be killed for experience, quest objective completion, or loot.
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"Mob" is an actual term in Pathfinder, referring to a group of creatures that is larger than a "cluster". Mobs are usually 7-12 in number (1d6+6).
I've found that some of the easiest ways to balance min-maxing is to eliminate potential for it right off the bat. If you know you have strategically sound players who enjoy finding out how to best compliment their party and find success in combat scenarios, don't punish them or forbid them from doing that. Just make it more difficult. After all, in reality, why wouldn't a hero wish to best prepare themselves to keep their allies alive and well.
If your players are knowledgeable and strategic, lower the point buy or dice rolling mechanic used for determining ability scores. (if it is 20 point buy, then reduce it to 15-18). Or have them pick classes first, then roll for each and every score without flexibility. One of the greatest characters that I have seen was a Rogue who rolled a 9 on dexterity and the player role-played that he was beginning to develop serious symptoms of Parkinson's disease. Or you could reduce the acceptable range for allocating points. (nothing less than 9 and nothing greater than 16). This may balance some characters and make them less specialized.
Most importantly though, you should have a quick but honest sit down before you begin the campaign. Let them know that you want them to be happy players and have the ability to build and work however they want (within acceptable measures), but YOU also deserve to enjoy yourself as a GM. It is so often stated that it is the GM's job to keep the game fun and stimulating for their players. This is true, but the players also have a responsibility to grant the GM flexibility, discretion, and to just be agreeable understanding,
Typically it isn't the number crunching, and combat operations that get a GM excited. It is the weaving of narrative, unveiling of plot, spontaneous player creativity, unpredictable moments of triumph, and also utter defeats. A good GM doesn't want to see their players fail, he wants to see how they react to adversity.
I never truly understood the full satisfaction as a player until I also started to GM. This game is not meant to be blazed through like a video game. Following a strategy guide, powering your way through thousands of enemies with unlimited lives and acquiring piles of stat boosting treasures. As a player, when you welcome challenge, embrace your failures, and evolve your character's "character", then you will find thorough enjoyment.
That simply makes casters (non-MAD) even more powerful than martials (MAD) who take it in the shorts harder because they can't budget saving-throw attributes now. Either that or everybody's a dwarf.I've found that some of the easiest ways to balance min-maxing is to eliminate potential for it right off the bat. If you know you have strategically sound players who enjoy finding out how to best compliment their party and find success in combat scenarios, don't punish them or forbid them from doing that. Just make it more difficult. After all, in reality, why wouldn't a hero wish to best prepare themselves to keep their allies alive and well.
If your players are knowledgeable and strategic, lower the point buy or dice rolling mechanic used for determining ability scores. (if it is 20 point buy, then reduce it to 15-18).
Or have them pick classes first, then roll for each and every score without flexibility.Gimp Circus. --There needs to be a happy middle ground between Gimp Circus and Cheesemeister 9000. Sure: the dex-9 rogue is funny to watch being played, but excruciating to play yourself if that's not what you're interested in.
Typically it isn't the number crunching, and combat operations that get a GM excited. It is the weaving of narrative, unveiling of plot, spontaneous player creativity, unpredictable moments of triumph, and also utter defeats. A good GM doesn't want to see their players fail, he wants to see how they react to adversity.
If you loathe powergaming, run P6.
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if you are a new DM and you are newer to RPGs and your players are vets who might powergame, then I would recommend confining them to the CORE RULEBOOK.
It's got 11 classes and what 6 races (i think). tons of spells, weapons, feats, etc..
more than enough for years and years of adventures.
if someone pitches a fit b/c they can't be something exotic or have some weird spell or feat, then just level with them: you are learning how to do this and you are learning to walk before you run.
most people will be accomodating. as you learn more, you might want to expand out the possibilities.
I’m not sure exactly what a “mob” is.Slang from World of Warcraft (and therefore irritating to certain tabletop gamers). Derived from "Mobile Object". Means a non-player entity whose primary purpose is to be killed for experience, quest objective completion, or loot.
I'm not sure where mob came from, but I've been using mob even before WoW. I think it started back in Everquest or even something earlier, like Ultima Online.
Mob = mook = any attackable creature that isn't the BBEG/Boss
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I’m not sure exactly what a “mob” is.Slang from World of Warcraft (and therefore irritating to certain tabletop gamers). Derived from "Mobile Object". Means a non-player entity whose primary purpose is to be killed for experience, quest objective completion, or loot.I don't know if I'm more insulted as an Everquest player (WoW is basically an EQ clone) that you don't know enough to give credit to the actual source, or that your dragging into Pen and Paper RPGs where terms like agro, mob, and dps don't belong.
Leave the MMO where it belongs, Pathfinder has more than enough idioms to annoy people. It doesn't need unrelated games to add more.
new toon who dis
Gimp Circus. --There needs to be a happy middle ground between Gimp Circus and Cheesemeister 9000. Sure: the dex-9 rogue is funny to watch being played, but excruciating to play yourself if that's not what you're interested in.
I guess we just have a very different interpretation on what the game is all about. Luckily for me, the people I play with are into honest communication about what they want to experience, and I as a DM have the power to change the game however to ensure the most enjoyment possible. Some of my favorite characters have been my worst ones.
Though I'm not sure what P6 is, but am happy to learn more about it.
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That's mostly going to block non-wizards to be honest. Wizard can be easily broken by core only, it's a lot of martial classes and such that get hosed for lack of viable options. It does make things simpler for the DM sometimes, but not really in the context of only needing to know what your players are taking. It's the same amount of info either way really, unless you want to memorize the entire book just because they took one feat from it. Nothing wrong with going core only, but I've never understood why it was viewed as less powergamey or easier to do.if you are a new DM and you are newer to RPGs and your players are vets who might powergame, then I would recommend confining them to the CORE RULEBOOK.
It's got 11 classes and what 6 races (i think). tons of spells, weapons, feats, etc..
more than enough for years and years of adventures.
if someone pitches a fit b/c they can't be something exotic or have some weird spell or feat, then just level with them: you are learning how to do this and you are learning to walk before you run.
most people will be accomodating. as you learn more, you might want to expand out the possibilities.
yes, but he mentioned that he was a first time DM. restricting options to core will really help him get a handle on the system and improve his mastery of play. it'll curtail the hyper-powered rogues and fighters who can't be hit or the clerics who are killing dragons with a blow.
it's easier on the DM and will ease the power-gaming concerns he might have.
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Though I'm not sure what P6 is, but am happy to learn more about it.
Pathfinder version of E6. Short version: Stop leveling at 6th level. After that, gain feats instead of levels. The P6 Codex version includes special feats only available after reaching 6th level.
Not my cup of tea, but E6/P6 have a pretty decent following among players who don't care for the core system's mid- to high-level mechanics.
I’m not sure exactly what a “mob” is.Slang from World of Warcraft (and therefore irritating to certain tabletop gamers). Derived from "Mobile Object". Means a non-player entity whose primary purpose is to be killed for experience, quest objective completion, or loot.I'm not sure where mob came from, but I've been using mob even before WoW. I think it started back in Everquest or even something earlier, like Ultima Online.
Mob = mook = any attackable creature that isn't the BBEG/Boss
People who don't know "mob" as mobile object originated with MUD/MOO scripting make me feel like an old, old Skwid.
P.S.: it is a terrible, confusing thing that it has become widely accepted in RPG parlance, IMNSHO.
Thank you to all the folks who provided advice. I now have a lot to think about at least I have several months. Again thanks to everyone.
Are the other players also trying to "powergame" in your campaign?
Or, is it just one player? or even two players? How big is your group? And do you know their class choices yet?