Can swarms be entangled?


Rules Questions


They can't be grappled; grappled is often taken as a more severe form of entanglement.
Y/N
Raw - probably yes? Your thoughts?


RAW yes, they're not immune, though they'd have to be entangled by an effect that doesn't target a limited number of targets.

Grand Lodge

I find it odd that a wasp swarm, for example, would be immune to web, but not to entangle.

It makes more sense to me for a swarm to be immune to both.


most means of entangling wont' get "all" of the swarm
but they would get a sufficient amount that they couldn't cause serious trouble.
Thematically speaking


could a gelatinous cube engulf the swarm? *lol*


Grappled is not a more severe form of entanglement; they are different conditions entirely.

Edit: I'd also argue (weakly) that "cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed" refers to combat maneuvers and not conditions, though thanks to the overloaded term "grappled" the only evidence I can offer is the principle of parallel construction.

A gelatinous cube can engulf a swarm--it automatically engulfs any number of creatures that it moves over, so there's no specific number of targets involved. The engulfed swarm would not be pinned, though, unless you subscribe to my questionable argument above.


So, what could you use to 'Entangle' a swarm? I would have thought Web, but if you go by RAW it causes Grappled and thus a swarm would be immune.


Swarmbane clasp + net?


...Dare I mention the obvious?


Do dare.


Why don't you just grease it and knock it prone?


Behold.


This is effective against flying swarms?


If the plants can reach them, yes. If not, that's what an evergreen seed pouch is for. : )

Either way, you asked what one could use to entangle a swarm, not a flying swarm.


That is true, the first example was for a wasp swarm, but I myself didn't specifically state which.
The bag is interesting, and I did not know of it before this. But it seems to only replace the need for existing plants as part of the spell. It does not appear to be useful against flying targets (swarms), as it states the floating seeds plant themselves in the ground.


Quote:
The seeds plant themselves in the ground and instantly grow to create any vegetation or grass that the spell requires to function inside of the spell’s area of effect.

In the case of the seed pouch, the seeds sprout and grow sufficiently to entangle everything in the spell's area of effect (a 40' spread, normally). This is better than the usual entangle in which you have to work with whatever plants you have in the area.

That said, in a sufficiently plant-dense setting like a jungle with long vines hanging out of trees, even basic entangle will work. Trees can grab things too, their branches, twigs, and leaves bending to hinder any creature they can reach.


Again very true, and highly effective in the right setting. I am looking for something that works on flying swarms regardless of effective settings, prefferably not class dependant too. Not sure if anything that general exists.


With class independence, yeah, that'll be tough.


Delenot wrote:
So, what could you use to 'Entangle' a swarm? I would have thought Web, but if you go by RAW it causes Grappled and thus a swarm would be immune.

Yeah, in 3.X web did cause entangled. I have no idea why they changed it to grappled in Pathfinder. I am sure there's a (good) reason.


3.5 web was kind of a mess--it made you "entangled but (insert a bunch of exceptions to the usual rules for entangled here)". I'd guess that Paizo decided the grappled condition better matched the intended effect of the spell.


swarms are wimpy anyway... I should mention I play wizards for the most part.


Swarms are absolute death to some low-level parties. Running a 2nd-level Paizo module, my five person party with no area spells got dangerously close to wiping on a CR 3 mosquito swarm. IIRC, they ended up doing the "jump in a pond and stay underwater until they're gone" thing, then loaded up on alchemist's fire for their revenge.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My 7th level magus was killed by a leech swarm (two actually). We where in a corridor filled with water reaching our waist and it came out of a trap door near us. When you walk at half speed and they swim at 30' it is hard to outpace them, the distract ability make spellcasting very hard and the Con damage make you last less time. Add the times you fail to save against the nauseatd condition and they are deadly in the right situation.

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