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I'm in the camp of your class is how you do a thing, it isn't what you do - the ingame word for what you do is as mutable as you need it to be.
There are a 1000 different ways to build a cleric, not all of them will look the same or feel the same in world - so if they describe themselves as holy warrior, or priest, or healer, or ranger, or whatever that is how they will be known in world.
In fairness there aren't many paladins that would describe themselves as anything but - but they can, and it's not lying, imagine a naive youth who strives to do good who may not even be aware she is a paladin, she is just a warrior trying to make the world a better place. She may even deny being a paladin as she probably doesn't feel worthy of the title.
I'm in the camp of your class is how you do a thing, it isn't what you do - the ingame word for what you do is as mutable as you need it to be.
There are a 1000 different ways to build a cleric, not all of them will look the same or feel the same in world - so if they describe themselves as holy warrior, or priest, or healer, or ranger, or whatever that is how they will be known in world.In fairness there aren't many paladins that would describe themselves as anything but - but they can, and it's not lying, imagine a naive youth who strives to do good who may not even be aware she is a paladin, she is just a warrior trying to make the world a better place. She may even deny being a paladin as she probably doesn't feel worthy of the title.
Ok, how does this naive warrior come to terms with lay on hands. Or the divine bond. How long do they get to be naive while continuing to suspend disbelief?
Edit: I mean I get it in a world where divine manifestations are nigh mythical, but it doesn't work well in golarion or even 90% of d+d settings
She'll probably get there eventually, but that's the thing about mutability - it can change. Her story will evolve and as it does how she describes herself to the world also changes.
Under an immutable "paladin is a paladin" that's a story that can't be told.
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Ok, how does this naive warrior come to terms with lay on hands. Or the divine bond. How long do they get to be naive while continuing to suspend disbelief?
Healing touches aren't unique to paladins [even Sl/supernatural]. Heck even lay on hands isn't paladin only. Neither are mounts [cavalier/hunter/ranger/druid] or enhancing weapons from class [magus]. It could be seen as 'picking up' skills here and there.
Ok, how does this naive warrior come to terms with lay on hands. Or the divine bond. How long do they get to be naive while continuing to suspend disbelief?Healing touches aren't unique to paladins [even Sl/supernatural]. Neither are mounts [cavalier/hunter/ranger/druid] or enhancing weapons from class [magus]. It could be seen as 'picking up' skills here and there.
Non divine healing touches?
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It was just an off the cuff example.
There are over 40 different paladin archetypes on AoN. Some of which can greatly affect how the class plays. The paladin is far from the most archetype-d class there is. There is a lot of cross contamination of class abilities. There is no such thing as a standard paladin (or a standard anything really). They don't all have nice and neat package of abilities that allow you to neatly pigeonhole each class.
I really can't see how anyone can justify your game class being your in-world description
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Non divine healing touches?Ok, how does this naive warrior come to terms with lay on hands. Or the divine bond. How long do they get to be naive while continuing to suspend disbelief?Healing touches aren't unique to paladins [even Sl/supernatural]. Neither are mounts [cavalier/hunter/ranger/druid] or enhancing weapons from class [magus]. It could be seen as 'picking up' skills here and there.
Mesmerist [cult leader] can heal [temp hp] and all mesmerists have Touch Treatment [like mercies]. Alchemist Healing Touch. Swift Healing Infusions from the Alchemist Wasteland Blightbreaker. Kinetic Healer. I'm sure there is more if I dig further than a cursory look.
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Recognized orders of Paladins does not strike me as odd in any setting
Just not all Paladins necessarily come to their powers by belonging to such an order
Ultimately, as any setting-decision, it should belong to the GM ;-)
BTW what about other classes ? A favorite trick of ours is having PCs look like they belong to another class so that NPCs wrongly assume abilities and restrictions :-D
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Easy, they would be huntsmen.Not wanting to sound nitpicking, but how do people in your game call to those who hunt?
Yeap, fundamentally different ways to play, that is all.To me a class isnt divided from what it is ingame.
A PC with the class paladin, is also a paladin in game...
If the PC doesnt have the paladin class, then he isnt a in game paladin...
Ofc this goes for other class aswell, but again, some are harder than others to divide due to being a more generic term, like the assassin case.
So nobody in your game says "Pete is a hunter" unless Pete has an animal companion and cast spells? Even better, was people allowed to say "Pete is a hunter" until Advanced Class Guide got published, but not after that?
Well, it certainly it's a matter of tastes, and to each with its own. But that's not how it works in my table, and I don't expect it to be that way in most places.
Granted, usually among commoners only the religious ones will spot it. When we're talking about authorities though, especially, it should be relatively easy to determine who is and is not actually a Paladin. Unless you have a local guard without a single person with a single rank in knowledge religion... Which is possible... But very unlikely given how useful it is in that line of work (Identifying undead and the like)
Most of your 'guard' type classes do not grant know religion as a class skill. Fighter, slayer, ranger, warrior, ect. Unless casters are common as guards, I don't see a LOT of know religion floating around. A quick skim of adventures hasn't revealed any guard stats with know religion in them.
Granted, usually among commoners only the religious ones will spot it. When we're talking about authorities though, especially, it should be relatively easy to determine who is and is not actually a Paladin. Unless you have a local guard without a single person with a single rank in knowledge religion... Which is possible... But very unlikely given how useful it is in that line of work (Identifying undead and the like)Most of your 'guard' type classes do not grant know religion as a class skill. Fighter, slayer, ranger, warrior, ect. Unless casters are common as guards, I don't see a LOT of know religion floating around. A quick skim of adventures hasn't revealed any guard stats with know religion in them.
That would be where you could (but not have to) put a skill feat of one of the guards, maybe some are devout, maybe some are flunked paladins themselves or other stuff.
This is where the gm says how common that stuff is in the area|
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Most of your 'guard' type classes do not grant know religion as a class skill. Fighter, slayer, ranger, warrior, ect. Unless casters are common as guards, I don't see a LOT of know religion floating around. A quick skim of adventures hasn't revealed any guard stats with know religion in them.
I'd be surprised if most Guard organizations didn't at least have an Adept or Cleric as a medic who could provide such skills at need. But it's definitely a specialist knowledge within the Guard, something they'd need to call the local expert to verify rather than something random guard #23 would know.
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Yep. We have a Knowledge Arcana skill, a Knowledge Religion skill, and a Spellcraft skill, but there is no "Knowledge Class Feature" skill.Actually, per the Spymaster's Handbook (p.9) identifying Class Features is absolutely doable, though the skill varies by Class (it'd be Knowledge - Religion on a Paladin), with a DC of 10 + The Level the Class Feature is gained.
Still, that's a DC 11 check at a minimum when only DC 10 or lower checks can be made untrained, so only people with Knowledge (Religion) can reliably identify a fake Paladin.
That's identifying class features, though, and the language appears to be the same as the application of Spellcraft on identifying spells. As in, you can identify a class feature or a spell, but those skills don't cover what those class features or spells are associated with. Spellcraft doesn't reveal anything about the existence of "spell lists" (at most, you have Wizards having an easier or more difficult time depending on the spell's school, which is an in-universe thing). The Spymaster's Handbook similarly doesn't peel back the curtain on classes as being things in-universe (for which I'm personally thankful, since that's a level of fourth-wall breaking I don't think serves the roleplaying part of the game well).
That would be where you could (but not have to) put a skill feat of one of the guards, maybe some are devout, maybe some are flunked paladins themselves or other stuff.
Yes you COULD g0 out of your way to add a skill they wouldn't normally have JUST to sense paladins but that seems pretty meta that EVERY town, village, settlement, ect would EACH have such a person the that took a feat to be a paladin detector.
I'd be surprised if most Guard organizations didn't at least have an Adept or Cleric as a medic who could provide such skills at need. But it's definitely a specialist knowledge within the Guard, something they'd need to call the local expert to verify rather than something random guard #23 would know.
Oh, I'm sure a big city would. I'm more thinking the small town/village. Would every place have a guard that in their ranks with the skill? IMO, no.
In PF1 it seemed pretty common sense to me that most patrols in medium+ towns and cities would include someone with Detect Magic to quickly check just how powerful an unknown party would be
Detect magic would be much help in IDing a paladin.
The Spymaster's Handbook similarly doesn't peel back the curtain on classes as being things in-universe (for which I'm personally thankful, since that's a level of fourth-wall breaking I don't think serves the roleplaying part of the game well).
There are spells that can tell the caster what clss the target is. For example, Psychic Reading can tell the targets class(es), feat(s), ect.
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...why am I seeing the following situation:
Guard: "Halt and be identified, stranger, none may pass the city gates until they've been properly verified!"
Paladin: "Okay, sure, I'll just wait here."
Guard Adept comes out, starts making funky gestures to do Detect Magic
Paladin biffs the Spellcraft roll, but knows there's a Visible Manifestation of a spell being cast, immediately goes weapons hot thinking they're under attack...
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Just because a Paladin is instantly identifiable doesn't mean that they are necessarily instantly respected.
I think there's also room for the obviousness and "unerrability" of whatever identifies the paladin to be somewhat flexible based on table preferences. For example, paladins could have a special aura that is 100% unfallibly identifiable IF viewed with the Detect Good spell, which would be very useful if you needed to lean on your reputation to testify in a court that can verify with the appropriate spell, but would still leave room for the average peasant or guard to be unable to instantly identify a paladin. Or there could be a physical mark which can be displayed easily but possibly faked with sufficient skill in disguise or illusion. Or some combination - an unusual mark on your Good aura that could be affected by the kinds of abilities that can fake aligment auras.
In any case, it would clarify how people identify paladins and how certain they can be about the paladin's status.
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What if the goodrightfun is someone who was casually approached mentally by their deity of choice one day and told 'Hey, could you do me a solid and y'know, EXTERMINATUS some Evil for me?'
How do they suddenly and automagically become part of some prominent sacred holy order... or why would they even?
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What if the goodrightfun is someone who was casually approached mentally by their deity of choice one day and told 'Hey, could you do me a solid and y'know, EXTERMINATUS some Evil for me?'How do they suddenly and automagically become part of some prominent sacred holy order... or why would they even?
That is an excellent point
I was mentioning the belonging to a sacred order trope as an in-game solution for those who want instant recognition
But I do not see it as the only and right way to Paladinhood
In fact I once created a Paladin PC who was very much an outsider to the usual stereotypes of Paladins and wholly of the called by the gods variety, which could be a source of friction and interesting RP with the aforementioned recognized holy orders ;-)
In the end it depends on both the setting that belongs to the GM and the character concept that belongs to the player and how both can fit so that everyone enjoys the game