I like the idea of chaotic paladins being lead by emotion! I could get behind that!
Lawful deities should be going do this or I punish you that is lawful. Chaotic deities should not be functioning this way.
Moorcock's Eternal Champion series disagree.
My own preference is to move away from alignment restrictions and instead focus on archetypes: chivalrous paladin, vindicator, etc. You could take your "typical LG paladin," but remove the alignment restrictions and the archetype would arguably play mostly the same with a LN, NG, or CG character. The importance is that you have a chivalrous holy warrior.
You guys can't go back to thought I've already passed it just sews confusion.
I like the idea of chaotic paladins being lead by emotion! I could get behind that!
Its funny actually the more I think about it the more I'm like Barbarian is the Chaotic neutral paladin.
Edit: whoa Deja vu I feel I've been here before.
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In P1E, chaotic cavaliers belong to orders with edicts telling them how they should behave. Chaotic characters follow the obediences of chaotic gods; the exalted prestige class takes this to the extreme.
In P2E, chaotic clerics must abide by the edicts and anathemas of their gods, or they will lose their powers.
The idea that chaotic characters can follow a code or oath is not new.
Apparently I did not make that clear based on everyone else's comments but yes I'm referring to the gods. (even though I mentioned deity having a problem with it like 3 times!) so in your example here what would be the tenets of a chaotic paladin? what is their motivation?
No offense intended, but you’ve been kind of all over the place. You mentioned deities, yes, but also characters themselves several times, including in this post that I’m quoting.
As a thought exercise, forget paladins. Think of 5E warlocks or PF1 witches. Does it stretch credibility that these characters, who are as often chaotic as not, would bind themselves to vaguely defined entities, also as often chaotic as not, for power?Because that’s the kind of Oath-bound I’ve been envisioning: a warlock of the old ones, in full plate.
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Antipaladins are Chaotic Evil, and follow a Code. If they break it, they fall.
For example, Callistria ask them:
All slights against me will be repaid tenfold.
I am the instrument of my own justice. If I am wronged, I will take vengeance with my own hands
A Paladin of Callistria that do not repay an slight, will fall. That includes whe the slight is done by someone 10 levels above you, who will crush you for your attempt of revenge.
Same if someone steals from you, and you let the guards punish the guy.
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Antipaladins are Chaotic Evil, and follow a Code. If they break it, they fall.
For example, Callistria ask them:
All slights against me will be repaid tenfold.
I am the instrument of my own justice. If I am wronged, I will take vengeance with my own handsA Paladin of Callistria that do not repay an slight, will fall. That includes whe the slight is done by someone 10 levels above you, who will crush you for your attempt of revenge.
Same if someone steals from you, and you let the guards punish the guy.
My first question is "When?"
Those read more like an ideology than a code. A set of principles to live by, sure, but not rules to follow. For instance, there is no requirement for immediacy (and long-term plotting revenge seems very in-character).
I do find the CE anti-paladin code a bit ridiculous. As long as you maintain evil intentions, you can under deep cover as a Good guy for as long as you like.
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Not really. An antipaladin of Callistria who is undercover will risk the undercover to take revenge of a slight. The antipaladin of Besmara, might not, because have other tenets
Actually, we've discussed alignment upthread, and we seem to prefer the interpretation that Chaotic is the Utilitarian alignment (ends justify means). So a CG Champion would have a pretty strict code, but it would focus on acceptable results, not how you got to those results.
I'd like to strike at a real flavor for the class, to help separate it from Paladin, and not arouse opposition from that Paladin camp.
Paladins are the Knight in Shining Armor archetype, and from what I can tell of their current thing in PF2, there's a focus on protection. Paladins are Guardians, they keep others safe, they take on the burdens that are too much for others to carry. Disciplined and resolute, people see Paladins and (ideally) think "Alright, we're safe now. Noble Paladin Man is here!"
So to go a different direction with Chaotic, maybe more like a hot-blooded anime protagonist. They aren't Guardians keeping everyone safe like Paladins, but they're inspirations that invigorate everyone they come in contact with. When a Paladin says "I will face this battle for you." a Chaotidin can say "We will face this together!" because they believe in Good, they believe in themselves, and they believe in YOU. And their belief empowers you like it empowers them.
Passion or emotion, the idea to me is to express their Chaos aspect as having more energy about them, like they're going to explode with good feelings and love. Boundless fonts of energy, that they share with anyone joining their cause. Like a cross of Bard and Paladin I guess. In PF1 terms, giving bonuses to hit/damage, temporary hit points with weaker healing, less bonuses to protect against things, but more bonuses for people willing to run out there and just try something crazy. If Hero Points were better thought out and integrated, then interacting with those could be another example.
The entire idea is indeed extremely premature, a 'Champion' unique to Chaotic Good, Paladin or not, is a poor prospect right now. But as I point out often, I hate Lawful Good or Paladins coming across as 'Special', so something to at least round out the corners is high on my list of "Just do it, please, come on man..."
Actually, we've discussed alignment upthread, and we seem to prefer the interpretation that Chaotic is the Utilitarian alignment (ends justify means). So a CG Champion would have a pretty strict code, but it would focus on acceptable results, not how you got to those results.I'd like to strike at a real flavor for the class, to help separate it from Paladin, and not arouse opposition from that Paladin camp.
Paladins are the Knight in Shining Armor archetype, and from what I can tell of their current thing in PF2, there's a focus on protection. Paladins are Guardians, they keep others safe, they take on the burdens that are too much for others to carry. Disciplined and resolute, people see Paladins and (ideally) think "Alright, we're safe now. Noble Paladin Man is here!"
So to go a different direction with Chaotic, maybe more like a hot-blooded anime protagonist. They aren't Guardians keeping everyone safe like Paladins, but they're inspirations that invigorate everyone they come in contact with. When a Paladin says "I will face this battle for you." a Chaotidin can say "We will face this together!" because they believe in Good, they believe in themselves, and they believe in YOU. And their belief empowers you like it empowers them.
Passion or emotion, the idea to me is to express their Chaos aspect as having more energy about them, like they're going to explode with good feelings and love. Boundless fonts of energy, that they share with anyone joining their cause. Like a cross of Bard and Paladin I guess. In PF1 terms, giving bonuses to hit/damage, temporary hit points with weaker healing, less bonuses to protect against things, but more bonuses for people willing to run out there and just try something crazy. If Hero Points were better thought out and integrated, then interacting with those could be another example.
The entire idea is indeed extremely premature, a 'Champion' unique to Chaotic Good, Paladin or not, is a poor prospect right now. But as I...
What if the Chaotic warrior defended themselves through a warp field effect, a twisting of reality, itself?
Mind, I'm imagining a Chaos Knight being its own separate class and development cycle.
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I think a Reality Warping Chaos Knight would be crazy cool for Chaotic Neutral. Getting away from the stereotypes of "Chaotic Neutral is just Chaotic Evil you can't say 'No' to." and making it "She's a champion of the Chaotic Neutral alignment. When she sets herself against something... things get weird. Really, really weird. But still pretty cool."
Unfortunate that this ship has sailed, because along this line of thought you could do something really cool with a Paragon class that exemplifies and draws power from the aligned planes.
I might have to keep this idea in my back pocket for an eventual homebrew project...
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Yeah, I know is likely a lost cause. Only Lawful Good is special, Neutral and Chaotic Good can pound sand, blah blah blah...
Hate it to death. I'd love to see a Chaotic Good class that fully emphasizes the Good alignment's capacity to inspire Hope, or Neutral Good class about their Compassion. Paladin is being all Justice and such.
A 'Judge' class for True Neutral that's always weighing the scales. And another 'Judge' class for Lawful Neutral BECAUSE THEY ARE THE LAW!
So much potential. But only Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil will get to use it. Because that's the tradition. Apparently Lawful Good is so horrible to play they have to bribe people into it. Paladin feels more and more like the Dark Side to me as the debate rages on.
"There is only one Lord of the Alignments, and he does not share power!"
My personal homebrew is going to be to simply delete the alignment restriction. Leave everything else, code and all, the same.
Once I've more thoroughly absorbed the class and spell chapters, I'll start messing around with an alternate version of the class for Hellknights, but this is going to be my start