PF1e has its troubles, but overall it's a fantastic, fun, and flavorful game. Its amazing number of options speaks both to its development team, and its 10 years history in publication. Its options reach to the stars!
Some of the anxiety in recent threads comes from wanting to make sure that some playstyle options that we've come to know and love stay available to us. That can be a lot to pack in a Core book, compared to 10 years of history.
It doesn't render those options unimportant. It puts us in a position though, of arguing the value of one idea over the other, when part of what we are upset about is space. Space in a book, space in publication. Space and time given to it by developers.
This doesn't mean our concerns are not valid.
Frustration over this is a real thing. It can pit us untentionally against one another however, and have us saying, "your idea is worth less than mine," when part of our frustration is really, "I want to play my cool thing, but it might not be out for a while, and I'm frustrated."
What are some of the options in PF1e that you really, really want to see published soon after PF2e's launch?
In my own case, my players love, love the bloodrager and inquisitor. I'm going to be hard-pressed without these. On top of that, I'll be in the position of adapting a lot of custom-made systems and classes. Oh, man!
I don't think I'll be able to adapt the new alchemist into an artificer, and that is going to hurt. That's going to affect my players in a real way, and I will have to find a solution for it before we upgrade.
How might you mitigate some of those options in the meantime?
For artificer, I may open source the artificer here on the boards. :D Y'all are up for that, right? :D
For bloodrager, I may make it easier for people to multiclass sorcerer and barbarian, though I'll have to see how PF2e handles MCing first.
For witch, I may can hack together some nice system options shortly after launch. A lot of witch can be flavor, while we're waiting on the mechanics.
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I'm hoping that the Sorcerer might take up the mantle of «versatile at-will blasting specialist» from the Kineticist. If they don't, I hope that the Kineticist will be published in one of the first books after core.
I'd like to see Dex-based combat be viable for a variety of classes (Fighters, Clerics, Paladins, etc.) while leaving Str-based combat strictly better in terms of raw damage potential. I'd like to see that implemented in a no-fuss way like in 5e, as opposed to the jump-through-these-hoops-please way of PF1. I'd like to obviate the need for a Swashbuckler class, instead making the Fighter and Rogue flexible enough to play that role out of the box.
I'd like to see the Laser Cleric from 4e/5e as a viable concept in PF2, i.e., give Clerics an at-will ranged attack power so it's possible to play them weaponless. I wouldn't mind seeing that gated behind a domain or a class feat so that the default Cleric is still armed. I know Kyra gets a fire ray, but limited by spell points, so it's not viable as a backbone strategy.
I'm hoping that the Sorcerer might take up the mantle of «versatile at-will blasting specialist» from the Kineticist. If they don't, I hope that the Kineticist will be published in one of the first books after core.
You know, I've known a lot of folks who want to play their sorcerer like this. I could totally see that.
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I would like to have an investigator class sooner than later. Or, failing that, the inspiration mechanic available for thematic skills, perhaps using skill feats or rogue class feats.
If we're talking new options, I would like an at-will buff class, a "divine" equivalent to the kineticist. Something along the lines of the 3.5 dragon shaman. PF paladins come pretty close, close enough that I could see it as an archetype, but I would like to see a class designed with that intent in mind.
I would ALSO like to see a class that really doubles down on the spell-point system, perhaps to the point that you only get spell-point abilities and cantrips (although the spell-point pool size would need to be addressed). I could see this becoming the kineticist, replacing burn with spell-points, but shifters and monks are also potential candidates.
I would like to have an investigator class sooner than later. Or, failing that, the inspiration mechanic available for thematic skills, perhaps using skill feats or rogue class feats.
If we're talking new options, I would like an at-will buff class, a "divine" equivalent to the kineticist. Something along the lines of the 3.5 dragon shaman. PF paladins come pretty close, close enough that I could see it as an archetype, but I would like to see a class designed with that intent in mind.
I would ALSO like to see a class that really doubles down on the spell-point system, perhaps to the point that you only get spell-point abilities and cantrips (although the spell-point pool size would need to be addressed). I could see this becoming the kineticist, replacing burn with spell-points, but shifters and monks are also potential candidates.
Based on the blog posts you've seen, do you mind if I ask you to speculate how you might mitigate some of this in the meantime? It's part of the fun, here. :D
I love these ideas.
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I'll need to see the full rules before I really could guess, but the new cantrip and powers systems intrigue me. The "bless" cantrip alone is going to go a long way to making my at-will buff bot, or example. Depending on how the PF2 paladin is built, and what options they're allowed to pick from, I might easily be able to 'brew a variant that makes me happy (bigger auras in trade for some of the "kill evildoers" abilities).
I have every confidence that 3PP will spend the next year tinkering away as well. I can't wait to see what they come up with.
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I'm hoping that the Sorcerer might take up the mantle of «versatile at-will blasting specialist» from the Kineticist. If they don't, I hope that the Kineticist will be published in one of the first books after core.You know, I've known a lot of folks who want to play their sorcerer like this. I could totally see that.
I've been lobbying for that for a while now, but haven't heard any comment from the devs so far. I'm very curious whether they might already have something similar in mind for the Sorcerer, or if not, if they might still be amenable to an overhaul. :)
I've been lobbying for that for a while now, but haven't heard any comment from the devs so far. I'm very curious whether they might already have something similar in mind for the Sorcerer, or if not, if they might still be amenable to an overhaul. :)I'm hoping that the Sorcerer might take up the mantle of «versatile at-will blasting specialist» from the Kineticist. If they don't, I hope that the Kineticist will be published in one of the first books after core.You know, I've known a lot of folks who want to play their sorcerer like this. I could totally see that.
I'm not sure they'll go this route, since not every sorcerer is focused on blasting. A lot of bloodline powers are more focused on self-transmutation, since that more closely hews to the idea of your blood power coming out.
I wouldn't mind if they did, but it might be more of a departure from PF1 than they're willing to go. At the very least, I hope the option to make cantrips hit harder is there.Now that I'm thinking about all this, I'm getting curious about witches. Because a debuff cantrip that automatically scales with your level is going to look an awful lot like a PF1 hex. Will witches become cantrip masters then, using a completely different variety of cantrips than a blast focused sorcerer or wizard?
I've been lobbying for that for a while now, but haven't heard any comment from the devs so far. I'm very curious whether they might already have something similar in mind for the Sorcerer, or if not, if they might still be amenable to an overhaul. :)I'm hoping that the Sorcerer might take up the mantle of «versatile at-will blasting specialist» from the Kineticist. If they don't, I hope that the Kineticist will be published in one of the first books after core.You know, I've known a lot of folks who want to play their sorcerer like this. I could totally see that.I'm not sure they'll go this route, since not every sorcerer is focused on blasting. A lot of bloodline powers are more focused on self-transmutation, since that more closely hews to the idea of your blood power coming out.
I wouldn't mind if they did, but it might be more of a departure from PF1 than they're willing to go. At the very least, I hope the option to make cantrips hit harder is there.Now that I'm thinking about all this, I'm getting curious about witches. Because a debuff cantrip that automatically scales with your level is going to look an awful lot like a PF1 hex. Will witches become cantrip masters then, using a completely different variety of cantrips than a blast focused sorcerer or wizard?
Okay. This has me wondering, too. Hexes could in theory fill a blasting role.
...though storywise, I have to admit. I don't see it so much.
What about sorcerer-specific feats that lend themselves towards better blasts?
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I think a lot of the newer 1e classes might be doable as archetypes/variants in the new ed. I'd like to see overall fewer classes with more versatility within those classes. OTOH, a new class always sells well so that model may not be lucrative.
There's stuff like--I really liked the brawler in 1e because the monk was more of a defensive/skill/martial artist hybrid, and didn't have full HD. I think the monk plays an interesting role, but just straightup unarmed whupass wasn't it (which disappointed many). Fighter you could finagle sort of a decent unarmed focused character but it took a lot of work and they could never keep up at high levels because of DR etc. Multiclassing wasn't adequate to fix it. The brawler did fix it and so it was needed for those who wanted to play that concept. So I could argue that I really want a brawler in core.
But if say in 2e the fighter gets brawler-type options that make pure unarmed combat badassery viable even at higher levels, and monk still fills a martial arts/skilled character hybrid role, we don't need a brawler.
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Perhaps I mistyped. I don't think witches will become blasters; I think they'll stay the masters of debuff. I'm just wondering how the new systems will handle it. Witches get a lot of hexes in PF1, will they get just as many, maybe more, cantrips in PF2? I could even see them not even being called cantrips for witches; just call them hexes just like clerics get orisons instead of cantrips. Or will hexes be fueled by spell points instead? That might not work as well, given the limited resource, but perhaps new hexes will be so flavorful players won't mind. Plus, something ought to be fueled by spell-points, might as well be heir hexes.
I'm just spit-balling, no real ideas yet. Except that if you need to cobble together a witch out of the core options in PF2, picking a sorcerer that focuses on debuff cantrips and enchantment spells might be the way to go (steal the wizad's familiar while they aren't looking too).
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Perhaps I mistyped. I don't think witches will become blasters; I think they'll stay the masters of debuff. I'm just wondering how the new systems will handle it. Witches get a lot of hexes in PF1, will they get just as many, maybe more, cantrips in PF2? I could even see them not even being called cantrips for witches; just call them hexes just like clerics get orisons instead of cantrips. Or will hexes be fueled by spell points instead? That might not work as well, given the limited resource, but perhaps new hexes will be so flavorful players won't mind. Plus, something ought to be fueled by spell-points, might as well be heir hexes.
I'm just spit-balling, no real ideas yet. Except that if you need to cobble together a witch out of the core options in PF2, picking a sorcerer that focuses on debuff cantrips and enchantment spells might be the way to go (steal the wizad's familiar while they aren't looking too).
To be fair, I may have just taken the idea and run with it, mentally. Hexes are such a unique and fun niche, that I began to wonder, "What if...?"
And that's fair. :)
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I just had a crazy idea. Remember the Witches' Coven mechanic/story concept?
A Druid's Grove would be flavorful and thematic, and potentially fun to build on. Since PF2e is unifying mechanics, introducing a Grove would pave the way for Witch, and so on.
That's fine then, just wanted to be sure I didn't give the wrong impression.
And yes they are.
I just had a crazy idea. Remember the Witches' Coven mechanic/story concept?
A Druid's Grove would be flavorful and thematic, and potentially fun to build on. Since PF2e is unifying mechanics, introducing a Grove would pave the way for Witch, and so on.
I like it. Could definitely work, especially if they tied into rituals somehow. Could a druid circle or witch coven cast rituals faster?
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I'm not sure they'll go this route, since not every sorcerer is focused on blasting. A lot of bloodline powers are more focused on self-transmutation, since that more closely hews to the idea of your blood power coming out.
That's certainly true of PF1 Sorcerers. If PF2 Wizards were to take on some of the conceptual space of PF1 Sorcerers, it would leave PF2 Sorcerers to become something more unique and specialized, though.
To allow for Kineticist-style blasting, a PF2 Sorcerer's regular spellcasting would have to be significantly restricted — it would basically play the role of the utility talents of the Kineticist. Of course, you could compartmentalize this sort of Sorcerer in a single bloodline (the Elemental bloodline?) and have several other bloodlines for other types of Sorcerers (Dragon for transmuter gishes, Fey for enchanters, etc.). You'd just have to make sure that the other bloodlines' at-will capabilities match the Elementalist's blasting as the Sorcerer's bread-and-butter tactic. That might be a bit tricky with enchantment, given that so many enemies are immune to that sort of approach, but then, the Witch hexes are a good working demonstration of that concept.
Then again, maybe these Dragon and Fey Sorcerers would step on the conceptual toes of the Alchemist and Witch too much...? Dunno.
Then again, maybe these Dragon and Fey Sorcerers would step on the conceptual toes of the Alchemist and Witch too much...? Dunno.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the flavor is distinct and combinations are a little different.
For example, take the "Artistic flourish" power in the domain blog. Totally appropriate for creation domain, but also for creation school wizards, metal oracles, basically anyone that would have creation in their portfolio. But it could also be given to a rogue or bard archetype that focus on running cons or counterfeiting goods. Having the ability to pull a "priceless artifact" out of nowhere to sell or having the right clothing to enter any event would be pretty handy for them, and it has a totally different flavor than the domain power while not needing to change a word of the power itself.Build in a few other abilities that focus more on lying and cheating instead of being an artist, and even the name of the ability takes on slightly more sinister, or at least mocking, overtones.
