Human Fighter Archer Build


Advice


Could I get a little feedback about feat tree for a human fighter archer. For Ranger I could take 'Improved Precise Shot' at a very early level due to the Ranger's 'Combat Style Feat'.

Can the Fighter class get improved precise shot (amongst others) as a bonus combat feat w/o meeting pre req's?

Feats Build:

L1: Point Blank Shot
(Human)L1: Precise Shot
(Fighter) L1: Rapid Shot
L2: Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
L3: Deadly Aim
L4: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L6: Many shot
L7: Snap Shot
L8: Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L9: Improved Snap Shot
L10: Point Blank Master
L11: Improved Precise Shot
L12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L13: Clustered Shots
L14: Combat Reflexes

Amongst the middle area levels I'm not sure which is the best to take priority wise.

Recommendations on archetype? From what I gathered it seems like Weapon Master, Archer and Vanilla seemed like strong choices.


I would switch Clustered Shot with Snap Shot.

You can't get Improved Precise Shot early as a fighter.

I don't like the Archer archetype, I would probably go with Vanilla.


Honestly, Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot really aren't worth it these days, IMO. Once they shortened the threatened range from 15ft to 10ft (with Improved) it stopped being worth it. Snaps Shot only was never worth it, considering that you could get the same effect by having a gauntlet with which to threaten any adjacent enemies.

Also, Alzhan is correct that the archer archetype is bad. Honestly, the archetype I would recommend would be mutation warrior. The ability to grow wings, and grant yourself stat bonuses via mutagen is very strong.

That being said, a lot of advanced weapon training are great, including Armed Bravery which uses your Bravery bonus (which mutation warrior replaces). Warrior Spirit is practically a must have as well, as it will allow you to add bane to your weapon tailored to the enemy you fight each combat.


I really love some of the abilities of Advanced Armor Training too, like Armor Specialization and Adaptable Training. Moreover I think that being able to move at full speed in heavy armor and upgrading the DEX cap and armor check penalty are useful things for every fighter, even more for a high dex character.

In addition to what Claxon said, there is Versatile Training and Focused Weapon too, which let you use warpriest sacred weapon dice. It opens some fun combo, like grabbing a wand of gravity bow and use vital strike to throw lamp pole instead of arrows...


If you do decide to go mutation warrior (which is as much an issue of flavor as mechanics) consider using the fast healer feat with the spontaneous healing discovery. It's feat intensive, but you might find it worth.

Sovereign Court

I will always recommend Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest over Fighter.
You can get the same number of bonus feats (*see below), you can still take Fighter feats (and take some feats as though you had full BAB), and you get Weapon Training with your bow at the same rate.

BUT, you're trading away d10 hit die and full BAB for:
-6th level Cleric casting
-good Will saves
-the amazing Fervor
-War blessing
-Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor to add bonuses or abilities

For comparison, at level 10, the full attacks would look something like (assuming +1 Comp Longbow (+2), 14 STR, 22 DEX, and Gloves of Dueling for both):
Fighter: +18 Manyshot/+18/+13 for 1d8+16 per arrow
Warpriest: +20 Manyshot/+20/+15 for 1d8+18 per arrow

With all the same gear and feats selected, the Warpriest has higher to hit and higher damage, and used only the first swift action of combat to buff (Fervor for Divine Favor). A couple times a day he can instead use Divine Power with that first swift action to also get an extra full BAB attack.

*Assuming you are a race that has access to the Human Favored Class Bonus for Warpriest (Human, Half-Orc, Half-Elf, any of the partial outsiders with "Mostly Human") you will get feats at 1, 3, 6, 6, 9, 12, 12. Same number as you'd get with a Fighter (1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12), but your first is locked into Weapon Focus and you get the rest a level or two later than a Fighter would. It is worth noting, though, that if you go all the way to 20th level, the Fighter WILL have ONE additional feat.


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Fighter : 10 bab + 6 dex + 4 WT + 1 bow + 1 WF + 1 GWF + 1 PBS - 3 DA -2 RS = + 19/ + 19 / + 14

Warpriest: 7 bab + 6 dex + 4 WT + 1 bow + 1 WF + 1 GWF + 1 PBS - 2DA -2 RS + 3 Divine = + 20 / + 20 / + 15

Fighter: 1d8 + 2 STR + 4 WT + 1 PBS + 6 DA + 2 WS + 1 bow = 1d8 + 16

Warpriest: 1d8 + 2 STR + 4 WT + 1 PBS + 4 DA + 2 WS + 1 bow + 3 Divine = 1d8 + 17

Those are the numbers breaked down

Sovereign Court

Oh, I actually hadn't counted Greater Weapon Focus, and I was counting Fate's Favored on the Warpriest (because not taking Fate's Favored on a Warpriest is doing it wrong), which bumps Divine Favor up by 1. Otherwise you've got the same numbers I had in mind.


I had a question about a certain feat tree which I'm unsure is worth it.

Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes.

The reason I think this is because from my limited experience the weaker guys in numbers are generally not that dangerous and our party can deal with them, the problem is vs the 1 strong boss types. I could be wrong though since I don't have nearly the experience as many of you on this board do.

What feats could I take instead of those? Perhaps Celestial Obedience to Falayna (for the luck bonus including fates favored. +4/+4)

How bout if you were an archer for another class that are much more feat starved such as a non-human ranger, would you still go with these 3 feats?

IF you go with these 3 feats, would you try to grab these BEFORE clustered shots or should I grab clustered shots before or somewhere in between these feats?

You guys are awesome!


As a Fighter:

L1: Point Blank Shot
(Human)L1: Precise Shot
(Fighter) L1: Rapid Shot
L2: Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
L3: Deadly Aim
L4: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L6: Many shot
L7: Clustered Shot
L8: Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L9: Iron Will
L10: Point Blank Master
L11: Improved Precise Shot
L12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L13: Improved Iron Will

In a feat starved class there isn't place for Snap Shot. There wasn't space even when it threatened 15 ft, now is almost useless.

Moving Clustered Shot at lvl 7 and taking Iron Will and Improved Iron Will will be my choice probably.

As a non human ranger:
L1 : Point Blank Shot
L2 : Precise Shot
L3 : Rapid Shot
L5 : Deadly Aim
L6 : Improved Precise Shot
L7 : Manyshot
L9 : Weapon Focus
L10: Point Blank Master
L11: Clustered Shot

You can delay Deadly Aim further and take Weapon Focus at lvl 5 but there isn't really many options...

Sovereign Court

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with Improved Precise Shot.
What you want is to worship Erastil and take the trait Deadeye Bowman. This allows you to ignore the first ally providing soft cover to your target, which in 90% of cases is going to be good enough to replace Improved Precise Shot.

As for Snap Shot line, I think it's only worth it if you go the whole nine yards, and even then it depends on your campaign, as the tactic will be much better if you're primarily fighting in enclosed spaces. If you're playing in wide open areas where people can just go around you, you'll be disappointed with it.

When I say go the whole nine yard with it, I mean to be full BAB, and take Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, and Combat Patrol. With this tactic, you're using your full round to setup the Combat Patrol, which at 10 BAB will have you threatening at 20ft with your bow. With Combat Reflexes and high enough DEX, you can easily be getting more attacks per round this way than you would normally, but it's much more situational. I think that if you have the extra feats to spare (like as a Fighter with no ideas for better feats to take), then it can be cute to take alongside the normal archery feats, so that based on the given situation you can use whichever will be more effective at the time.

All that said, if you want to be threatening at range with your bow, I think Zen Archer Monk does it better. As a Zen Archer, at 9th level you get the ability to threaten with your bow within the reach of your unarmed strikes. From there, you just look for ways to increase your unarmed strike reach (Long Arm, Pliant Gloves, Enlarge Person, etc).


Improved Precise Shot it worth it when you can take it. Deadeye Bowman is a good stop gap until it's available.


I think it is cool that the Archer Archetype lets you Feint with your bow. After you take 3 levels in Archer with the Fighter Archetype, you can then take levels in Snakebite Striker Brawler and some kind of Ninja or Rogue and start doing Sneak Attack Damage with your arrows. You take Improved Feint, probably Greater Feint. Snakebite Striker Brawlers have special abilities with regard to Feinting. Also, there is Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Precise Strike to offset fact that you missed out SAD dice from levels in fighter.

If you are doing Sneak Attack Damage with your arrows, it might be worthwhile to take False Opening. False Opening has a high Feat Tax, though. You have to know what you are doing.


Ranged Feint feat does that better than the archer archetype.

Grand Lodge

Using even using a move to feint is givings up 1-4 attacks to add sneak attack to one arrow. It is fun but ultimately not worth losing weapon training or the attacks. Fienting is rarely worth the action economy Two-Weapon Feint is the only way to come close. Precise strike is a teamwork feat so you need a friend and you have to find a way to use a bow to flank.

False opening is really hard to use as you say. You have to weight the damage you will take against an unknown AC penalty which is of only a couple of points and how much damage average damage that will result in. It can work but it requires a player to really be paying attention.


Alzhan wrote:

As a Fighter:

L1: Point Blank Shot
(Human)L1: Precise Shot
(Fighter) L1: Rapid Shot
L2: Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
L3: Deadly Aim
L4: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L6: Many shot
L7: Clustered Shot
L8: Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L9: Iron Will
L10: Point Blank Master
L11: Improved Precise Shot
L12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L13: Improved Iron Will

In a feat starved class there isn't place for Snap Shot. There wasn't space even when it threatened 15 ft, now is almost useless.

Moving Clustered Shot at lvl 7 and taking Iron Will and Improved Iron Will will be my choice probably.

As a non human ranger:
L1 : Point Blank Shot
L2 : Precise Shot
L3 : Rapid Shot
L5 : Deadly Aim
L6 : Improved Precise Shot
L7 : Manyshot
L9 : Weapon Focus
L10: Point Blank Master
L11: Clustered Shot

You can delay Deadly Aim further and take Weapon Focus at lvl 5 but there isn't really many options...

Alzhan, I like your list. For a feat starved class (i.e ranger) what would you take at the later feat levels:

L13: Snap Shot
L14: Combat Reflexes
L15: Improved Snap Shot

Or would you still not even bothering grabbing these at this later date?

Also on the fighter list, you didn't list anything for level 5. I think I'll take your advice with the fighter bowman and not go the snap shot route, what is the 1 addition to fighter bowman feats?

Sovereign Court

Shuffle Iron Will or Point Blank Master down to 5 and take Improved Crit at 9 or 10. 19-20 may not be a ton, but with x3 crits it's really nice to have.


Claxon wrote:
Ranged Feint feat does that better than the archer archetype.

You think so? They seem pretty much the same to me, just that one of them costs a Feat, and one of them is a Class Ability. That -4 penalty is bad, but you can make your Bluff Check wicked high, and what they hey, it's just arrows. Also, that same Class Ability lets you Disarm and Sunder, later, Bull Rush, Grapple, and Trip.

The main reason I brought up the Fighter Archer Archetype is that I thought that is what the OP was asking for.

Crexix wrote:
human fighter archer

Maybe not.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Crexix wrote:
human fighter archer

Maybe not.

They asked about the archetype in their post, but didn't say they were set on using it. Also, one can be a fighter archer without being the fighter archer archetype.

Overall the archetype is bad. It loses Bravery, which can boost Will Saves. It loses Armor Training for Trick Shot, which can be replaced by feats if you're really after those ability. It replaces Weapon Training (with a bonus the scales the same) but will prevent you from using Advanced Weapon training or Gloves of Dueling.


Claxon wrote:
They asked about the archetype in their post, but didn't say they were set on using it. Also, one can be a fighter archer without being the fighter archer archetype.

Sure, but since they asked about it, I focused on it.

Claxon wrote:
Overall the archetype is bad. It loses Bravery, which can boost Will Saves.

Yeah, but too situationally. If it boosted all Will Saves, I'd miss it. As it is, just boosting Will Saves vs. Fear, I'm willing to trade that out for a Perception Check Bonus.

Claxon wrote:
It loses Armor Training

If I'm playing an archer, I'm going to have a high Dex, and that means I'd want to be wearing lighter armor. I have a Pathfinder Society Ranger archer with a 16 ST and 14 Dex. Were she a Fighter, she would be wearing an Agile Breastplate, allowing her a maximum +3 Dex bonus to her AC, meaning she'd have to bump up her AC 4 points before she even needs an increase to her Max Dex Bonus to her AC. To switch to Heavy Armor, She needs at 7 levels in Fighter, and by then, she might well have already upgraded to a magic breastplate or even a mithril breastplate. And taking advantage of Armor Training can easily involve changing your whole kit and selling armor you have already put a lot of money into, only getting half of it back.

Besides, if you are an archer, do you really need heavy armor? Just hang back and shoot people!

Claxon wrote:
for Trick Shot, which can be replaced by feats if you're really after those ability.

Fair to say you can do a ranged feint as a Feat instead of as a Class Ability, and it works better, but the Class Ability lets you do other things, too.

Claxon wrote:
It replaces Weapon Training (with a bonus the scales the same) but will prevent you from using Advanced Weapon training or Gloves of Dueling.

Something I hadn't considered, but also something that the character I was proposing wouldn't use. I was proposing dipping just the 3 levels to get Trick Shot, then taking levels in things to do Sneak Attack Damage, which also tend to give you more skill points for improving your Bluff Checks for Feinting.

That being said, it would it make a more powerful character to do what I did: start out as a Ranger so you can use a Wand of Gravity Bow and take Precise Shot as a Bonus Feat and perhaps also take Endurance to be able to sleep in your Armor, then take the Ranged Feint Feat and then levels in things to up your Bluff Roll and Feint better. and do Sneak Attack Damage while shooting people. Or even better, dip 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, get an Eversmoking Bottle and dance your way through every encounter with all your victims Blinded!

But like I said, the reason I was pushing Archer is that the OP was asking for Archer.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Claxon wrote:
Overall the archetype is bad. It loses Bravery, which can boost Will Saves.
Yeah, but too situationally. If it boosted all Will Saves, I'd miss it. As it is, just boosting Will Saves vs. Fear, I'm willing to trade that out for a Perception Check Bonus.

Yeah, but with Advanced Weapon Training Armed Bravery, it's essentially losing a bonus to all Will Saves.

Quote:
Claxon wrote:
It loses Armor Training

If I'm playing an archer, I'm going to have a high Dex, and that means I'd want to be wearing lighter armor. I have a Pathfinder Society Ranger archer with a 16 ST and 14 Dex. Were she a Fighter, she would be wearing an Agile Breastplate, allowing her a maximum +3 Dex bonus to her AC, meaning she'd have to bump up her AC 4 points before she even needs an increase to her Max Dex Bonus to her AC. To switch to Heavy Armor, She needs at 7 levels in Fighter, and by then, she might well have already upgraded to a magic breastplate or even a mithril breastplate. And taking advantage of Armor Training can easily involve changing your whole kit and selling armor you have already put a lot of money into, only getting half of it back.

Besides, if you are an archer, do you really need heavy armor? Just hang back and shoot people!

It's nifty to be able to play an archer in heavy armor with full movement speed and increase the max dex to it. I'm not saying it's essential, and it's the easiest thing to trade out on the fighter even with all the extra options it has. That said, it's still worth considering if what you get in return is worth giving it up.

For example, I think it's worth it on the Mutation Warrior because you can get wings and ability score bonuses, but what you get from Archer archetype isn't worth it IMO.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
But like I said, the reason I was pushing Archer is that the OP was asking for Archer.

The OP asked about making an archer using the fighter class. He asked for archetype recommendations, where they asked about Weapon Master, and Vanilla alongside Archer archetype.


Hey, question about the gravity bow wand. I'm a level 3 ranger, what do I have to roll to make the gravity bow wand charge succeed? I think getting a wand is a great idea but I'd probably have to grab a wand that's level 2 and costs 1500 GP. As level 1 wand is pretty tight with a 60 second timer. Thoughts?


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You don't have to roll anything. Gravity bow is on the ranger spell list so rangers can use the wand without fail. I would stick with the first level wand. Most combats are over within 1 minute.


For the OP, I would suggest Weapon Master archetype if all you want is to stand in the back and shoot, or Vanilla if you want some AC and be in the opponents face.

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