I know we only have a 4 domain power sample thus far, and I am not crying chicken little on the whole system, but the way these domain powers work feels like a pretty intense departure from a unified modular system.
Certainly, purify food is going to be some kind of ritual or spell right? Is Enhance Victuals going to be the only power (including spells and rituals) in the game that enhances food? If there is going to be any spell/ritual that does something similar, why would the domain power not just grant access to that spell or ritual, perhaps with special caveats that make them better/different with it so that it can be done with less actions, more times a day, to greater effect, etc.
The design of spells thus far has done such a good job of getting rid of "the same but slightly different," but domain powers is a big question mark for me, as it seems like the exact opposite. Tempt Fait and Artistic Flourish both seem to be in the same boat, treading the water of "this is probably very, very close to what a spell or ritual is going to offer."
And thus out of a four domain power sample, it really only feels like we got one ability, Unity, that doesn't feel like it probably should have been folded into a spell or ritual.
I really like the idea of domains and domain powers. I was on the fence about what spell points were going to be as a game mechanic, even if I dislike the name, and remain there after seeing the domains blog, but having "the same but different" emerge so prominently as an iconic class's core feature makes me nervous about the probability of added complexity without any purpose and the opportunity for extreme bloat, as there will be x number of game features to do x number of effects that are essentially the same, instead of x number of ways to access the power that does this effect.
x times x for one essential ability is a lot more bloat than just x times 1.
My issue isn't there being two spells that do similar-ish things, even though from the heal spell example, it seems an unnecessary redundancy that could be accomplished through using a heightened version of a spell. (so this is still not good, even if it isn't terrible).
The bigger issue is having two spells, that are also now going to be kinda like this one class' feature, which is how the current system ended up being such a monster to balance. If the class feature is the same or worse than the spell, than the power becomes a "trap feature", since a character could just memorize the spell, or have it reserved as a scroll when that specific situation arises.
It is not so bad if the domain powers stay better than the spells at doing "the thing." but if they are doing "the thing." What is gained by not just having domain powers list: you can cast this spell by using spell points instead of spell slots. When you cast this spell you gain this additional benefit.
These powers in and of themselves are relatively unlike to see much play in games anyway, so I agree that it is not that big a deal so far, but if the precedent becomes "don't have powers reference or grant other spells, make each one unique." That uniqueness is going to lead to a pretty big mess as every future book has to add its own same but different powers.
Maybe that is a mechanic most will enjoy, but it feels like needless complexity, right out of the gate.
TO be clear, I don't want wording like "this spell works like x spell" being used as short hand creating rules nightmares. But if it actually is: this power lets you cast x spell with this difference, then I would rather see that then rehashing the entire spell, in a slightly different form, as its own unique thing, that needs its own stat block.
Im the opposite and im glad a few examples break the unified system. If everything is unified it lacks depth at the cost of simplicity. Which is why id prefer the skill system to be entirely different then what we are getting. Not bothered by this at all.
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I think this is an interesting question, but it's one we'll have a better perspective on when we see the full playtest rules. Right now the domain powers are the only powers we've seen. But every spellcasting class gets spell points (see last night's twitch stream), so the domain powers will probably feel like less of an outlier when we see the full picture.
I think my issue might be more visible and explainable with the the domain power: Artistic Flourish.
I like this power. It is cool, and I can see a lot of great uses for it. How much different will this be than something that should be available to a creation-focused arcane Transmuter? If the Creation Transmuter gets this exact same power, the balance issues around "what can a character do with an Expert, Master, or Legendary item" only need to look at the possibility that there are characters that will get the ability to have any of these items at their command within ten minutes, and that they will only last for 24 hours.
What happens when there are five or six classes that do something very similar to this, but each of them have their own set of rules for how they get quick assess to improved gear without buying it? Suddenly the designer of cool new adventuring equipment for an adventurers vault better check each item they are designing against five or six powers. It might not be a problem for the core rule book, but by adventurer's vault 2, things are going to get messy, when this "power" seems like it could just be a ritual.
As a ritual, it would still have a formula that could be easily limited (if alchemical poisons and mutagens can be limited) and it could be expensive to preform. Maybe the base ritual takes 30 minutes or an hour. Then the creation domain can let this ritual be cast for no material cost or in only 10 minutes for the cost of a spell point instead of existing in this form for the domain, a slightly altered form as a school of magic focus power, and a different form as a spell/ritual.
If it feels too much the same to reference one ritual with the ability for class powers to slightly modify those rituals, isn't the real issue a story issue that you feel like any class can pretty much do anything anyway? It seems like the problem there is that the powers are too accessible for your tastes.
Does the strength domain need a power that gives a strength bonus that is nearly the same as a spell like bull's strength?
The designer's realized this when they turned channeling into the heal spell. In my opinion, that was a smart move.
Healing magic is a unified mechanic.
Magically improving items should be a unified mechanic.
Magically purifying food should be a unified mechanic.
How a class gains access and uses those mechanics is where I want to see interesting diversity. Not in the descriptions for how the same thing happens.
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I'm guessing that exclusivity is the reason why there are domain powers, specifically exclusivity among clerics. For example if Artistic Flourish became a spell, then all clerics would be able to get it, but if it remains a domain power it is gated to clerics worshiping a deity with that domain, making deity selection more interesting and important.
Also since there are no class specific spell lists, if Artistic Fourish became a divine spell, all divine casters would have access to it. This may just be a problem with combined spell lists, but while purify food and drink would be fine for a druid, Artistic Flourish would be less so IMO. Clearly it could be left up to the GM to prohibit spells that do not fit the theme of a class (or character), but that would add a lot of work for the GM, making houserules over which spells fit and would likely cause some GM/Player tension. Probably nothing that couldn't be worked out, but it could be a thing.
Domain powers could also leave more room for archtypes for the cleric class, since it gives them another item to be swapped out or modified, depending on how archetypes work, if they are anything like they where in PF1 (possibly a stretch).
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I also am not so thrilled, as they have gotten rid of SLAs, a spell is a spell, no need for a spell with power written in the corner.
This was my thought at first, too. But I've changed my mind.
It's an "all squares are rectangles not all rectangles are squares" situation. Having the "powers" subset of spells labelled as such allows the designers to hook mechanical options (e.g. feats) onto that designation. (Keep in mind that many classes will be getting this kind of power, not just the cleric.)
Now, so far we haven't seen anything that *does* interact with powers, specifically as powers. So does feel like, "why not just call them spells"?
But it seems likely that we'll see such options in the future. (And even if not in the PF2 core, building in the term difference lets them expand on that foundation later.)
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Domain powers could also leave more room for archtypes for the cleric class, since it gives them another item to be swapped out or modified, depending on how archetypes work, if they are anything like they where in PF1 (possibly a stretch).
Playtest Archetypes work by giving you an add-on package of feats that you can select as class feats. You don't lose features. See this post.
Based on earlier responses from the devs, I think domain powers have the following goals:
- Replace old X times/day abilities from the PF1 domains, which were inconsistent and poorly balanced. Everyone wanted Travel and Luck, while I never heard of a PC cleric with Animal or Healing domains.
- Provide domain exclusivity and flavor.
- Get mechanical unity and balance with bloodline powers, school powers, etc.
- Define powers that are usable several times in a day without upsetting balance with other aspects of the class. So, they need to be stronger than cantrips/orisons that have unlimited use, but weaker than spells, which take slots.
We haven't seen enough spells, powers and cantrips to know how well the design works. What we're shown here is super flavorful, for sure. Most of it seems designed for frequent usage. I can see Temp Fate as a regular battle technique (risky but often worth it). Unity, sure, I'd use that all the time. Artistic Flourish depends on how useful it is to have high quality equipment, but I guess the party's rogue will love her expert-quality tools at low levels, and it scales nicely as the cleric progresses. If it works on weapons, it could be awesome. Enhance Victuals is the only one that might not see so frequent use.
This leaves the matter of balance with respect to cantrips and spells but I think we need to wait to see more of those.
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Artistic Flourish depends on how useful it is to have high quality equipment, but I guess the party's rogue will love her expert-quality tools at low levels, and it scales nicely as the cleric progresses. If it works on weapons, it could be awesome.
I don't see why it wouldn't work on weapons, since it targets "an item" or a work of art and weapons are items that take the quality grades. Here is what Mark had to say about it's usefulness outside of the Blog itself.
[...] one heightens a domain power by spending more spell points? Do I have that right?Often you don't have to spend any more spell points to heighten it, you just get the heighten for free, like enhance victuals. Artistic flourish is a good exception because the ability to get master and legendary-quality items on demand is a particularly significant heighten (for instance, at the level you get the legendary heighten, people are just starting to be able to craft legendary items at all).
I'm guessing that exclusivity is the reason why there are domain powers, specifically exclusivity among clerics. For example if Artistic Flourish became a spell, then all clerics would be able to get it, but if it remains a domain power it is gated to clerics worshiping a deity with that domain, making deity selection more interesting and important.
I understand the importance of making sure that choices feel significant and not easily replicated by another feature, but the question remains, is a cleric with the creation domain the only character in the game that is going to be able to do anything like artistic flourish, and is this going to be the only place this power appears?
Now if they are the only one who gets any power like this, or the creation transmutation wizard just gets the exact same power, then the designers are sticking to modular design, and that is cool with me. But I have a hard time imagining that the metal oracle or some version of an Artificer is not going to get something pretty similar, and there is nothing about Artistic Flourish that doesn't look like it was designed to be a ritual.
Why does it have a 10 minute casting time, and (somatic, verbal and material)? Can I use still spell as a metamagic feat on my domain powers? I probably wouldn't to be able to cast it if I was bound unless I had the material components in my hand before I was restrained. Does this reduce the casting time? Like it would for a regular spell?
The Alchemical items of the alchemist already present a fine template for a how a feature can be available to many characters, but clearly designed to be used and mastered by specific builds.
I don't think there is much risk of anyone trying to make a dedicated bomb throwing character that doesn't have the equivalent of at least a couple of levels in Alchemist, even though some characters may have a bomb or two for specific kinds of situations.
Rituals are already set up to work this same way, and it would be a good idea for there to be ways for certain characters to do more with rituals anyway.
I understand the importance of making sure that choices feel significant and not easily replicated by another feature, but the question remains, is a cleric with the creation domain the only character in the game that is going to be able to do anything like artistic flourish, and is this going to be the only place this power appears?
Now if they are the only one who gets any power like this, or the creation transmutation wizard just gets the exact same power, then the designers are sticking to modular design, and that is cool with me. But I have a hard time imagining that the metal oracle or some version of an Artificer is not going to get something pretty similar, and there is nothing about Artistic Flourish that doesn't look like it was designed to be a ritual.
I beg to differ. To me, the logic of the domain powers implies that no one else gets anything like this. Sure there need to be other ways to enhance items. This could be done via skills, or magic. But this domain power is unique (or should be) in that it is cheap to do (10 minutes, a spell point, done) and its effect is temporary. A ritual, or a lot of work by a skilled craftsman should be more expensive and time-consuming, and its effect should be permanent.
This way, you get something unique, that's granted by the deity giving you the domain, and it doesn't unbalance the game since it's just for one day.
I could definitely see a ritual getting the same effect as Artistic Flourish, with the default effect being temporary, but at a higher check DC and/or cost you can make it permanent. Would be one way to have the sword you inherited from your father and your father's father etc scale with you through the game without having to take a specific "Legacy Weapon" feat.
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Based on earlier responses from the devs, I think domain powers have the following goals:
- Replace old X times/day abilities from the PF1 domains, which were inconsistent and poorly balanced. Everyone wanted Travel and Luck, while I never heard of a PC cleric with Animal or Healing domains.
- Provide domain exclusivity and flavor.
- Get mechanical unity and balance with bloodline powers, school powers, etc.
- Define powers that are usable several times in a day without upsetting balance with other aspects of the class. So, they need to be stronger than cantrips/orisons that have unlimited use, but weaker than spells, which take slots.
I have thought some more about these points, but they don't seem to contradict my confusion or concern about the redundancy of trying to make unique powers out of things that will have effects replicated elsewhere in the book in other forms (either as spell or rituals).
If the nuts and bolts of Artistic Flourish is replicated as some kind of ritual, as Fuzzypaws suggests, perhaps with a different name, then it seems like Artistic Flourish would be a fine domain power listed as: This domain power allows you to cast the [improved item] ritual for no monetary cost, by expending x spell points.
It accomplishes all of the goals you mention, without creating the redundancy of making "this one is a domain power because it can be cast with a cleric's spell points, that one is a ritual because it has a material component cost."
To me, the logic of the domain powers implies that no one else gets anything like this.
I understand the idea behind this, but the vast majority of these domain powers (such as giving Sarenrae a fire bolt) are clearly going to be very similar effects to existing spells and rituals. if the only difference is cost and duration, or some other small, single line element, I think that designers have backed themselves into a corner with their promise of avoiding "this works like that" text in the rules, and the bloat of "unique powers" that are all the same power but slightly different is eventually going to start causing balance issues.
I guess what this really boils down to for me is that unique classes come from those classes combining the powers they get access to into something that is thematically interesting, feels like a part of the world setting and collectively not something that another class can accomplish. If another class does the same thing, but it is called something else, that doesn't make it any more unique to me.
I have thought some more about these points, but they don't seem to contradict my confusion or concern about the redundancy of trying to make unique powers out of things that will have effects replicated elsewhere in the book in other forms (either as spell or rituals).
If the nuts and bolts of Artistic Flourish is replicated as some kind of ritual, as Fuzzypaws suggests, perhaps with a different name, then it seems like Artistic Flourish would be a fine domain power listed as: This domain power allows you to cast the [improved item] ritual for no monetary cost, by expending x spell points.
It accomplishes all of the goals you mention, without creating the redundancy of making "this one is a domain power because it can be cast with a cleric's spell points, that one is a ritual because it has a material component cost."
It would be OK, but it would make the cleric of Shelyn a less interesting character. The difference I've been suggesting is a lot more than just a cost difference: I would see the ritual's effect to be permanent, while the domain power's, as written, is temporary. This is not just a mechanical nuance: It's very different in flavor as well.
To me, the logic of the domain powers implies that no one else gets anything like this.I understand the idea behind this, but the vast majority of these domain powers (such as giving Sarenrae a fire bolt) are clearly going to be very similar effects to existing spells and rituals. if the only difference is cost and duration, or some other small, single line element, I think that designers have backed themselves into a corner with their promise of avoiding "this works like that" text in the rules, and the bloat of "unique powers" that are all the same power but slightly different is eventually going to start causing balance issues.
I guess what this really boils down to for me is that unique classes come from those classes combining the powers they get access to into something that is thematically interesting, feels like a part of the world setting and collectively not something that another class can accomplish. If another class does the same thing, but it is called something else, that doesn't make it any more unique to me.
I agree that for some domain powers it's going to be hard to make it feel unique. A fire bolt is an example: I can't see how it could be designed as unique to a domain. But I think Paizo have really creative guys, I kinda expect them to surprise me.
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I think you'll be surprised, but not in the way you like.
There's nothing in the way Artistic Floruish is written that implies only worshippers of a certain god, or even clerics with a certain domain, get exclusive access. It's presented as exclusive in the domain blog post, that I'll grant, but a simple word choice would have made it clear that this power worked by the grace of your diety, and the spell lacks that distinction. So I think this exact power is going to be given to creation wizards, metal oracles, and possibly even alchemists. It's too close to what they'd be given, and uses up too much space for a exclusive power that hardly anyone is going to pick up.
I could be wrong. There could be multiple spells that do almost word-for-word the same thing, but that seems like the worst of all worlds from a word-count and balance standpoint.