In the Cleric Blog, it was revealed that all Clerics will receive a +2 Bonus to Wisdom.
This gives more proof to the theory that stat generation will be using the following method.
ANCESTRY
Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Goblins, and Halflings.
Two fixed +2s, One fixed -2, One flexible +2 (that cannot be put into the same stat as one of the fixed +2s).
or
Half-Elves, Half Orcs, and Humans.
Two flexible +2s.
BACKGROUND
One fixed +2, One flexible +2 (that cannot be put into the same stat as the fixed +2).
CLASS
One fixed +2, One flexible +2 (that cannot be put into the same stat as the fixed +2).
1ST LEVEL ABILITY INCREASES
Three flexible +2s.
Because of the flexible +2s at every step of character creation, you can still have an 18 in your primary stat even if you do not have a class that give you a fixed +2 to it, as long as your Ancestry does give you a -2 it. That being said, what stat do you think each class will give a bonus to as a fixed stat?
Personally, I’m fond of the idea that since we have 12 Core Classes, there will be 2 classes that each provide a bonus to a particular Ability. My preferred class-fixed abilities would be the following.
Strength: Fighter, Ranger
Dexterity: Rogue, Monk.
Constitution: Barbarian, Paladin.
Intelligence: Alchemist, Wizard.
Wisdom: Cleric (confirmed), Druid.
Charisma: Bard, Sorcerer.
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I would switch Ranger and Barbarian around and i think you would be right. Rangers can be built as an archery build making Str less required, and living in the wilderness makes them much more hearty, hence Con.
Kyra stats seem 2 points lower than what your prediction says, but otherwise that one is pretty likely.
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Kyra stats seem 2 points lower than what your prediction says, but otherwise that one is pretty likely.
One possibility: ability boosts applied to 16 or above only give +1. So if Kyra applied 2 floating ability boosts to a 16, that would yield an 18 Wisdom and account for the "missing" +2 you mention.
I haven't thought through this carefully, but this seems suggestive:
You'll also amp up several of your ability scores every 5 levels. The process might be familiar to those of you who've been playing Starfinder for the last several months! There are, of course, a few tweaks, and we made all ability boosts work the same way instead of being different at 1st level. Learn it once, use it in perpetuity.
I would switch Ranger and Barbarian around and i think you would be right. Rangers can be built as an archery build making Str less required, and living in the wilderness makes them much more hearty, hence Con.
I could see that. It certainly would fit with Ranger’s Endurance bonus feat in PF1.
However the reason I chose Barbarian for Con is because they’re the only Core Class with a Class feature tied directly to Constitution.
Also even Archery-built Rangers would like to have a positive Strength Modifier to Increase their Damage per arrow, assuming that Archery does not automatically get Dex2Damage and Composite Longbows still exists.
Kyra stats seem 2 points lower than what your prediction says, but otherwise that one is pretty likely.
My bad. I did my math assuming +2 to Three Ability Scores at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th Level. I must have been thinking of Starfinder when I typed Four +2s. I’ll edit the post to fix it.
At the very least, I’d prefer that over the Starfinder-esc “+1 after 16” possibility that Joe.M brought up.
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Kyra stats seem 2 points lower than what your prediction says, but otherwise that one is pretty likely.
That's not true. Kyra has 18, 14, 14, 12. That's 18 points and exactly what the first post gives in total. Which i think is really close to accurate (though, as others mention, I'd expect several Classes to give a choice of two stats...maybe casters get one and everyone else gets a choice?)
Me, I tend to think Class will not give you a floating +2 but the final stage will grant 4 floating bonuses. That makes the final stage map perfectly to the expected leveling bonuses at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter. And we haven't seen a single PF2 character with an 18 in a non Class-affiliated stat.
I wonder if "Class" is always a +2 or just a +2 for a class that clearly depends on one attribute more than the others. So a class that has a clear focus on two attributes might get a +2 to each?
I wonder if "Class" is always a +2 or just a +2 for a class that clearly depends on one attribute more than the others. So a class that has a clear focus on two attributes might get a +2 to each?
I can see obvious problems with the class bonuses being unequal. Depending on whether the multiclassing rules permit it, there would be an obvious temptation to take your first level in a class that grants more bonuses and then switch over to a desired class for which one of that class's bonuses is still useful.
More likely, if two ability scores are both potentially equally useful to a class, there would be a choice of class bonus.
The interesting question is some classes can go different routes and others are focused
And given the whole point of 2E seems to be even more character flexibility I would assume it will be a choice for some classes. The debatable area would be whether those without a choice should get another one
So those with one clear choice seem to be:
Wizards
Sorcerers
Druids
Clerics
Bards
Alchemists
Rogues is probably one choice in Dex but perhaps intelligence
I think Monk will get Wisdom as all monks need that . Same probably for Charisma and Paladins
Perhaps archetypes will allow a change? Such a a rogue that doesn’t get the boost to dex but to intelligence (phantom thief for example)
Barbarian, Ranger and Fighter are the only obvious ones where multiple choices are definitely necessary.
And the argument is moot if maximum stat at level 1 is 18 as I would expect it would be possible to get to an 18 without needing to invest your ancestry, background and class in that stat
If that is the case then it could be :
STR : fighter
DEX : ranger
CON : barbarian
Which leaves only one keyed off strength but that is the only way I see it unless no classes key off con
I'd be surprised if Ranger isn't given a boost to Wis: it affects their spell DC and the iconic Ranger skills (survival/track, perception) are keyed to Wis.
Likewise, Barbarian needs Con as that affects their rage duration. If that's still the same in PF2e (no idea) then I can see them getting a fixed Con bonus.
Agree that Fighters should get a choice between Str and Dex depending on if they go archer or melee.
We've already seen from the Cleric blog that class only gives a fixed +2, so I imagine it'll just be another floating bonus.
I am sort of wondering how they are going to handle the issue that the Monk would be expected to need Str (to deal damage), Dex and Wis (for AC), and Con (to not die).
Other people can pick up rapiers to need less strength or put on armor to need less dex and wis, and can avoid being in melee reach of the monsters so Con is less necessary.
I am sort of wondering how they are going to handle the issue that the Monk is would be expected to need Str (to deal damage), Dex and Wis (for AC), and Con (to not die).
Other people can pick up rapiers to need less strength or put on armor to need less dex and wis, and can avoid being in melee reach of the monsters so Con is less necessary.
My guess: giving them 10 hp/level so Con is optional (+1hp/level is now about +10% instead of PF1’s +20%), giving the class boost to Str or Wis, and relying on the system’s friendliness to increasing secondary scores. But, Monk might be special, and get two stat boosts as a mind/body thing.
My guess: giving them 10 hp/level so Con is optional (+1hp/level is now about +10% instead of PF1’s +20%), giving the class boost to Str or Wis, and relying on the system’s friendliness to increasing secondary scores. But, Monk might be special, and get two stat boosts as a mind/body thing.
If you make monks special in that they get more stats, you'd have to watch out for people starting as monks then immediately multiclassing out. I wonder if you could fix that by specifically prohibiting monks from multiclassing without retraining monk levels.
If it's what's proposed in the OP, though I think you can do pretty well.
Ancestry (say Dwarf): Put the floating +2 in Str, get an ancestral +2 to Con and Wis
Background: Pick one that gives a bonus to Dex, put the floating one into Str.
Class: If the class gives you Wis, put the floating bonus into Con
If you get 4 floating stat bonuses at the end, put one into each of your core abilities to end up with Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Wis 16 Int 10, Cha 8. I figure that's playable- it's a 25 PB in PF1 and close to ideal monk stats, maybe convert a +2 to Con to a Str one to have 18 Str and 14 Con.
Maybe they will just make monks less MAD - you never know.
If they’re keeping level-based multiclassing, that’s a potential concern, yeah. I wouldn’t really expect Monk to get different first-level stats in that case.
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I'm also not a fan of a net +4 for race. A 10-11 is supposed to be average for a human. It feels like power creep
Whether or not it's "power creep" depends on how PF2 is balanced as a whole (specifically, whether PF2 PCs are relatively more powerful in PF2 than PF1 PCs are in PF1). The designers rebalancing the fundamental math of the game; we'll get the chance in August to see how it all feels in play.
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You could have monks get better bonuses to states but not till third or fifth level to help combat dipping.
I like the idea of them getting extra stat boosts rather than trying to make them less MAD. Monks should be the masters of their own body and mind, it's a great shtick for the class.
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Anyone else not liking the idea of your background and class determining your stats? I get racial stat modifiers due to genetics, but not background or class.
You should be able to play a character with non-optimal stats.
Also, tying stat bumps to background just makes players pick the background that gives them the stat boosts they want.
I'm also not a fan of a net +4 for race. A 10-11 is supposed to be average for a human. It feels like power creep for the sake of marketing.
If you want to play with non-optimal stats, you can. A 12 Wis Cleric is non-optimal. Wis penalty ancestries get you down to 10 if you want.
It would be bad if backgrounds provided only static bonuses. But if it’s one fixed, one flex, then that’s all right.
10-11 is baseline, unexceptional. I’m cool with PCs generally only having one or two of those.
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My power creep concern is PF1 was designed primarily around 15pt buy, but nearly everyone played with 20. PF2's numbers are looking comparable to 20pt buys. Are people going to turn around and decided its too weak and house rule it higher. (That's not a Paizo issues, its a consumer base issue).
Another case where we don't know enough yet. I think the OP is on the right track.
Can I play an 8 STR fighter? What about a 6 CON fighter? I have characters with those stats in PF1.Anyone else not liking the idea of your background and class determining your stats? I get racial stat modifiers due to genetics, but not background or class.
You should be able to play a character with non-optimal stats.
Also, tying stat bumps to background just makes players pick the background that gives them the stat boosts they want.
I'm also not a fan of a net +4 for race. A 10-11 is supposed to be average for a human. It feels like power creep for the sake of marketing.
If you want to play with non-optimal stats, you can. A 12 Wis Cleric is non-optimal. Wis penalty ancestries get you down to 10 if you want.
It would be bad if backgrounds provided only static bonuses. But if it’s one fixed, one flex, then that’s all right.
10-11 is baseline, unexceptional. I’m cool with PCs generally only having one or two of those.
Yes. They have explicitly said that you can also roll for stats instead.
Can I play an 8 STR fighter? What about a 6 CON fighter? I have characters with those stats in PF1.
I wouldn’t worry- they’ll probably allow voluntary stat dumping like in Starfinder. If not, most GMs will be pretty chill with it. But I don’t think most people would consider it to be a very valuable feature.
Anyone else not liking the idea of your background and class determining your stats? I get racial stat modifiers due to genetics, but not background or class.
You should be able to play a character with non-optimal stats.
Also, tying stat bumps to background just makes players pick the background that gives them the stat boosts they want.
I'm also not a fan of a net +4 for race. A 10-11 is supposed to be average for a human. It feels like power creep for the sake of marketing.
I cant imagine they wont have a dice rolling and point buy alternative option. Chances are it will kill your character's effectiveness, but the option will be there for you.
It seems like it's pretty easy to bolt on any stat generation you want since "ignore everything about ancestry, class (at level 1), and background that gives you stats" seems pretty doable. It's easy to separate "Dwarves have Darkvision" from "Dwarves get +2 Con and Wis, -2 cha".
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Anyone else not liking the idea of your background and class determining your stats? I get racial stat modifiers due to genetics, but not background or class.
It doesn't make sense to you that training can boost one's capabilities in an area? Because that's kind of a fundamental truth of reality, and even more true in a world with levels.
You should be able to play a character with non-optimal stats.
You can? I mean, nothing is preventing you from distributing your stats non-optimally.
Also, tying stat bumps to background just makes players pick the background that gives them the stat boosts they want.
Not with a floating bonus unless you want a lot of stats.
Also, I have no problem with certain classes favoring certain backgrounds. That's realistic as hell. More people becoming Fighters after a military background than after one as an entertainer is a pretty reasonable trend.
I'm also not a fan of a net +4 for race. A 10-11 is supposed to be average for a human. It feels like power creep for the sake of marketing.
PCs being above average seems reasonable to me.
No, I'm not talking about voluntary stat dumping. I'm talking about dumping one stat to raise another. My 6 CON Fighter has 20 DEX. That isn't possible in Starfinder and if that is the design intent, then this game is a lost cause for me.
I like playing characters with a severely sub par stat, especially if they have a really high stat too.
The characters I have in mind are a super strong fighter with mental issues and a super dexterous fighter that can't take a hit. If I can't play these characters in PF2, then PF2 has limited my options, which goes against the stated design intentions of the system (to add MORE customization).
Stat dumping per se seems to be on its way out, though that is speculation at this point. You can do some of this pretty readily with Ancestry, though. I mean, Elves are built for the high Dex/low Con idea (your con will be 8, not 6 but it seems workable).
I don't think they will spread the classes in a way they can satisfy some kind of simetry just because.
That will limit them for future releases. Probably no one will get Con, and barbarians will get STR
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I would be happy if PF2 makes it completely impossible to start at a 20 in a stat.
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I would be happy if PF2 makes it completely impossible to start at a 20 in a stat.
I would be unhappy if it is completely impossible to start at 20.
They aren't going to please everyone.
Kyra stats seem 2 points lower than what your prediction says, but otherwise that one is pretty likely.That's not true. Kyra has 18, 14, 14, 12. That's 18 points and exactly what the first post gives in total. Which i think is really close to accurate (though, as others mention, I'd expect several Classes to give a choice of two stats...maybe casters get one and everyone else gets a choice?)
Me, I tend to think Class will not give you a floating +2 but the final stage will grant 4 floating bonuses. That makes the final stage map perfectly to the expected leveling bonuses at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter. And we haven't seen a single PF2 character with an 18 in a non Class-affiliated stat.
To be fair, my post originally contained a mistake where I listed both a floating bonus at the Class step, as well as 4 floating +2s during the Ability Score Increase step.
Because four +2s every 5 levels sounds better than three +2s, I think that you’re right.
However, that would mean if the +2 during the Class step isn’t somewhat flexible, the highest we can bump character’s stat that has Ancestry Penalty and not a Class Bonus is 14. Such as a Elven Fighter’s Constitution ( 8 +2 +2, +0, +2) or if we assume Paladin gives a bonus to either Constitution or Charisma, a Halfling Paladin’s Strength.
Which I’m not entirely opposed to.
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I would be happy if PF2 makes it completely impossible to start at a 20 in a stat.I would be unhappy if it is completely impossible to start at 20.
They aren't going to please everyone.
They will please me, among many others here.
In PF1 (and 3.5), the mere option of massively dumping stats creates an opportunity cost for not doing so that many people found overwhelming. Just look at all those class guides that claim that such dumping is utterly necessary to succeed! I'd rather see more balanced arrays around the table than the possibility of a 20.
(I think the 18 is already going to represent the «focused» end of the spectrum, with two 16's available for broader character concepts like Paladins, Monks, combat Clerics etc. Fine by me. There's nothing magical about the number 20.)
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Why? So long as you pay for it with other stats being lower, what's the problem? When you put the cap that low, having a capped stat isn't special.
It's not like I am asking for a 30 at level 1. I just want to play a low level character that is extremely gifted in one area, at the cost of being sub par in others.
Cuz min maxing isn't really a great design space to have, frankly. Makes players feel too obligated to just dump stats that do less fun for them so they can optimize their combat stats. I'm a little sick of 5-7 charisma martials and 5-7 strength wizards.
And PF2 is generally trying to keep the math tighter. Having +1 AC and +1 to hit is a lot more significant with the new crit mechanics.
I am stoked for this new stat creation, myself.
No, I'm not talking about voluntary stat dumping. I'm talking about dumping one stat to raise another. My 6 CON Fighter has 20 DEX. That isn't possible in Starfinder and if that is the design intent, then this game is a lost cause for me.
Ah. See, that's something I dislike in the game. That means people are incentivized to dump stats, moreso when it's lower than 8. Playing with a 6 Cha or 7 Con character in the group has been a consistently unpleasant experience for me. That might change if the category of people with 6s and 7s in stats is now only the ones who want to do it with nothing in return.
If that's your hill, though, that's your call.
I like playing characters with a severely sub par stat, especially if they have a really high stat too.
From the look of it, 18 will probably be the cap. You'll have to put ancestry, background, class, and (I presume) first-level level-up into it.
The characters I have in mind are a super strong fighter with mental issues and a super dexterous fighter that can't take a hit. If I can't play these characters in PF2, then PF2 has limited my options, which goes against the stated design intentions of the system (to add MORE customization).
Well, it is more customization. Just not the sort you want. The Fighter seems like they'll be able to afford making one of their normal dump stats a 14 without too much consequence, while that would hurt other areas pretty heavily in PF1. And not every sub-area of character creation is going to get more customization- there are certain tradeoffs. For most people, the ability to dump stats to raise others isn't as important as the ability to have good stats where they want them.
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However, that would mean if the +2 during the Class step isn’t somewhat flexible, the highest we can bump character’s stat that has Ancestry Penalty and not a Class Bonus is 14. Such as a Elven Fighter’s Constitution ( 8 +2 +2, +0, +2) or if we assume Paladin gives a bonus to either Constitution or Charisma, a Halfling Paladin’s Strength.Which I’m not entirely opposed to.
Getting a 14 in a secondary stat against one's racial predisposition without much sacrifice is a pretty sweet deal. Certainly not something you can pull off in PF1 with a 15-pt buy!
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To be fair, my post originally contained a mistake where I listed both a floating bonus at the Class step, as well as 4 floating +2s during the Ability Score Increase step.
Because four +2s every 5 levels sounds better than three +2s, I think that you’re right.
Ah! That makes sense.
However, that would mean if the +2 during the Class step isn’t somewhat flexible, the highest we can bump character’s stat that has Ancestry Penalty and not a Class Bonus is 14. Such as a Elven Fighter’s Constitution ( 8 +2 +2, +0, +2) or if we assume Paladin gives a bonus to either Constitution or Charisma, a Halfling Paladin’s Strength.
Which I’m not entirely opposed to.
I'd be shocked if Paladins couldn't get Strength, actually. I'd expect most Classes to get a choice of two stats, and Paladins seem tailor made for Str or Cha.
But yeah, I suspect an Elf Fighter caps at Con 14 or a Halfling Cleric at Str 14, and I'm cool with that.
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Well, it is more customization. Just not the sort you want. The Fighter seems like they'll be able to afford making one of their normal dump stats a 14 without too much consequence, while that would hurt other areas pretty heavily in PF1.
Good point. I would much rather roleplay with Fighters with Int 14 or Cha 14 or Wis 14 than those with Int 7 and Cha 7. I'm glad the new system will make that possible without undue sacrifice.
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My Class Bonus expectations:
Alchemist: Int
Barbarian: Str or Con
Bard: Cha
Cleric: Wis
Druid: Wis
Fighter: Str or Dex
Monk: Str or Wis (possibly Dex instead of one of these)
Ranger: Str or Dex
Paladin: Str or Cha
Rogue: Dex
Sorcerer: Cha
Wizard: Int
It's possible that some will have more options than that (Rogue might get Cha or int as an additional option, for example) but those are basically what I expect.
Single stats on non-casters tend to really hurt concepts like Archer Fighters (if they get Str) or Melee Rangers (if they get Dex), so I don't expect them.
So I'd expect full casters (and maybe Alchemists) to get a set single stat while everyone else gets some options. One possibility is that the full casters (plus Alchemist) all get a set stat but everyone else gets a floating one at this stage. I suspect they'll just get a couple of choices (or three choices, that would be interesting), but being allowed to grab whatever they like is also possible.