Now if I remember correctly, martials are also getting spellpoints as well, correct? Since Clerics are using them for domain powers, anyone have ideas on what possible abilities a fighter or rogue would get that uses those?
I'm thinking some of them are going to be attack moves tied to weapons, with more being unlocked based on proficiency levels that we have in them.
Martials shouldn't be getting Spell points. They always explain them based on Wizard/Cleric abilities.
Perhaps they'll get STAMINA instead, to power their EX abilities.
I hope thats a mistake. I dont mind a universal ability pool but calling it spell points for every class is just terribad.
I don't think all classes are getting spell points I think it was said that all classes that have similar abilities will have a unified nomenclature of spell points. So Druid might have spell points to cast beast shape, Paladin might have spell points to cast a smite evil spell (I think they said all spell like abilities will be defined as spells), Monk might have spell points called ki to cast.. monk stuff. But I don't think fighters, rogues, or barbarians will have spell points by default.
Unless the Barbarian spell is "Rage"....
I would not like that. Mechanically I guess it could work since X rages per day would just be going back to the 3.5 rules instead of rounds per day. But flavor wise it would be a big departure.
But okay barbarians have rage, bards have performances, clerics have channel energy, druids have wild shape, monks have ki, paladins have smites, Sorcorrerers have bloodline powers, wizards have school powers... But surely they won't give alchemists, fighters, rogues, or rangers spell points right... .... .... Dman it Evey class is going to have spell points.
martials are also getting spellpoints as well, correct?
I don't think this is confirmed.
I also really, really hope we don't get a martial flavoured version of spellpoints. That would just be too homogeneous IMO. And yet I can see them doing exactly that:
* Wizards: Spell points
* Clerics: Spell points (flavoured as channel energy uses)
* Bards: Spell points (flavoured as bardic song)
* Barbarians: Spell points (flavoured as rounds of rage)
* Druids: Spell points flavoured as nature's call)
* Paladin: Spell points (flavoured as channel divinity?)
* Fighters: Spell points (flavoured as stamina points)
* Rangers: Spell points (flavoured as nature's call?)
* Alchemists: Spell points (flavoured as bonus resonance?)
* Rogue: Spell points (flavoured as trick points?)
* Sorcerer: Spell points (flavoured as bloodline points)
* Monk: Spell points (flavoured as ki points)
I really, really hope this is not what happens.
The reason you don't want the above is because when you do you essentially get the same class listed in the rulebook 12 different times. The flavour they're getting is slightly different. But ultimately they're using the same chassis for all of the classes. I want more unique design than that.
Martials don't get spell points. They get MEAT POINTS. RAAAAR
Martials don't get spell points. They get MEAT POINTS. RAAAAR
Hit points are meat points, and everybody gets them. Homogeneity! We 4e now!
In all seriousness, a class shouldn't use a thing named "Spell Points" unless they're actually used to cast a spell or otherwise use magic in some capacity. But the idea that the term shouldn't be used because it's "too gamey" doesn't make much sense. How are Spell Points less of an abstract in-game construct than Spell Slots or Hit Points?
* Clerics: Spell points (flavoured as channel energy uses)
Cleric preview shows this is not the case. Domain Powers are "cast" with spell points, one point for the basic ability, your pool starts equal to your Wisdom (not your WisMod). Channel Energy is different, it has separate uses of 3+ChaMod per day.
It's probably good that these are separate so a level 1 cleric with 18 Wis and 14 Cha can use their domain power 18 times per day and channel energy 5 times per day in addition to 2 level 1 spells and however many cantrips (are we gonna call them orisons again?) a level 1 cleric knows.
Cleric preview shows this is not the case. Domain Powers are "cast" with spell points, one point for the basic ability, your pool starts equal to your Wisdom (not your WisMod). Channel Energy is different, it has separate uses of 3+ChaMod per day.
Thanks. I was genuinely confused on that point.
So for Clerics their limited resources are:
* Spell slots (prepared)
* Spell points (spontaneous - but can only be used for your domain spells)
* Channel energy (can only be used for harm/heal)
Interesting. So for druids I could see spell points + wild shape, bards get spell points + bardic music. Hopefully we don't see something equivalent for fighter and rogues.
* Clerics: Spell points (flavoured as channel energy uses)Cleric preview shows this is not the case. Domain Powers are "cast" with spell points, one point for the basic ability, your pool starts equal to your Wisdom (not your WisMod). Channel Energy is different, it has separate uses of 3+ChaMod per day.
It's probably good that these are separate so a level 1 cleric with 18 Wis and 14 Cha can use their domain power 18 times per day and channel energy 5 times per day in addition to 2 level 1 spells and however many cantrips (are we gonna call them orisons again?) a level 1 cleric knows.
That's a mistake, it's wisdom mod not wisdom for domain abilities. We saw in playtests at Gary con the cleric's fire ray had 4 spell points.
Maybe they should have called it "Dynamic Ability Points" instead? (DAP :P)
Martials shouldn't be getting Spell points. They always explain them based on Wizard/Cleric abilities.
Perhaps they'll get STAMINA instead, to power their EX abilities.
I think that stamina points are likely. But they would raise some design complications. Would a martial character receive spell points, too? Would a spellcaster receive stamina points?
The four simplest possibilities are:
1) Every class gets its own kind of points to spend on the class abilities. A fighter gets fighter stamina points to spend on special attacks, a cleric gets cleric spell points to spend on cleric domain abilities, a wizard gets wizard spell points to spend on school abilities, etc. A cleric/wizard has two separate pools of spell points and cannot steal from one class's pool for the other pool's abilities.
I don't think that is the case with PF2, because those pools would be named wizard points (or arcane points) and cleric points (domain points) rather than a generic spell points.
2) Every character starts with three pools of points: resonance points, spell points, and stamina points. Clerics and wizards have abilities that cost spell points. Fighters and rogues have abilities that cost stamina points. Alchemists have abilities that cost resonance points. We already know that the default size of the resonance pool is level plus Charisma modifier, so the other two could have similar sizes, such as level plus Intelligence modifier for spell points and level plus Strength modifier for stamina points.
I don't think that is the case with PF2, because we would have the oddity of a fighter having a pool of spell pools that he can never use except by multiclassing. It would be an enormous temptation to multiclass to tap into that pool for power alone rather than because it fits the character concept. In contrast, resonance points are used to power magic items, so every class can already use them.
3) Every character starts with three pools of points: resonance points, spell points, and stamina points, just like in case 2. However, the size differs. The spell point pool starts equal to Intelligence bonus and the stamina point pool starts equal to Strength bonus. Most divine casters will have an ability that switches the starting spell pool size to Wisdom bonus and rogues will have an ability that switches the stamina pool to Dexterity bonus. Whenever a character gains a level in a spellcaster class, including first level, the size of the spell point pool increases by 1, but the size of the stamina pool does not increase. Also, vice versa: whenever a character gains a level in a martial class, the size of the stamina point pool increases by 1, but the size of the spell pool does not increase. Or for simplicity and flexibility instead, the player choses one of the two pools to increase in size by 1 and the other does not increase.
This one is plausible, but it feels like one resource pool being cut into two pools, spell and stamina, when it could have been left as a single pool named power points.
4) Every character starts with three pools of points: resonance points, spell points, and stamina points, just like in case 2. The default size of resonance is level plus Charisma modifier, of spell points is level plus Intelligence modifier, and of stamina is level plus Strength modifier. Some classes will change the default modifier. In addition, every class has an ability that uses spell points and another ability that uses stamina points. In spellcasting classes, the spell point ability is strong and the stamina ability is weak. In martial classes the spell point ability is weak and the stamina ability is strong. A few mixed classes, such as ranger and monk, have strong abilities for both pools. The weak abilities for each class could relate to skills; for example, anyone could spend a stamina point to get a +1 to an Acrobatics check roll.
This one is the most plausible, but it would lead to an odd side effect of wizards showing some athletics whenever they spend stamina points and fighters showing some arcane expertise whenever they spend a spell point.
I think that stamina points are likely. But they would raise some design complications. Would a martial character receive spell points, too? Would a spellcaster receive stamina points?
You assume true multiclassing exists instead of multiclassing by feat. I expect we'll have multiclassing by feat and what you'll get is something like the following:
MARTIAL TRAININGPrerequisite: spell points
Benefit: Select either Barbarian, Fighter or Rogue. You can select feats of that class in place of your own class feats. Any abilities which require the use of a stamina point can be used by instead expending a spell point.
Special: You can take this multiple times, selecting a new class each time.
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Add one for martial classes and there you have it. Multiclassing by feat instead of true multiclassing. No issues with stacking point pools.
Will they definitely do multiclassing by feat? I don't know. But I'll be pleasantly if they don't.
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I would not like that. Mechanically I guess it could work since X rages per day would just be going back to the 3.5 rules instead of rounds per day. But flavor wise it would be a big departure.
But okay barbarians have rage, bards have performances, clerics have channel energy, druids have wild shape, monks have ki, paladins have smites, Sorcorrerers have bloodline powers, wizards have school powers... But surely they won't give alchemists, fighters, rogues, or rangers spell points right... .... .... Dman it Evey class is going to have spell points.
Welcome back to 4E
The game Pathfinder was published to give people an alternative too.
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I very much doubt that we’ll have “Stamina Points”. If we did, they would have been at least mentioned in either the Fighter or Rogue Blogs, or in one of the Playtest videos.
If Fighter had a pool of Stamina Points and Powers that spend them, then the Fighter player would have at least mentioned them, if only to have a basic understanding of how to play their character, like the Cleric player did. Especially since a Fighter Feat like “Sudden Charge” would likely consume at least 1 Stamina Point to use.
Also, because Channel Energy is a Uses/Day mechanic, I’m inclined to believe that Paizo is only going to be using Spell Points for Casters to cast what were previously Domain/School/Bloodline Spell-Like Abilities (as well as any new PF2 class abilities that are going to work similarly) so that characters who gain multiple Spell-point reliant abilities (such as having 2 domains) can merge their pools together and only need to track that one pool for those abilities. My question is, will a Wizard’s Spell Point pool stack with a Cleric’s and allow then more dialy uses of their Domain Powers?
Everything else will probably still be using a Stat Mod +X Uses/Day Mechanic.
I would not like that. Mechanically I guess it could work since X rages per day would just be going back to the 3.5 rules instead of rounds per day. But flavor wise it would be a big departure.
But okay barbarians have rage, bards have performances, clerics have channel energy, druids have wild shape, monks have ki, paladins have smites, Sorcorrerers have bloodline powers, wizards have school powers... But surely they won't give alchemists, fighters, rogues, or rangers spell points right... .... .... Dman it Evey class is going to have spell points.
Welcome back to 4E
The game Pathfinder was published to give people an alternative too.
I have more faith in Paizo. They know what Pathfinder players like.
I played Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition only for a few months. It was a bare bones system, with the minimum number of powers to make each class playable. Thus, any bare-bones system reminds me of 4th Edition. I heard that Dungeons & Dragons Elements added more, but I had stopped playing 4th Edition by then.
What I see from the Paizo PF2 articles is a plan to simplify the gameplay of Pathfinder without dropping options. The cleric can still channel but now channeling is an aspect of the Heal spell rather than a separate ability. Rather than PF1 limiting each domain ability to 3+Wis uses per day, forcing the separate tracking of every domain ability, PF2 has tracks the limit of all domain abilities from a single pool called spell points. Rather than PF1 differentiating between standard, move, swift, and full-round actions, PF2 uses a single action type during a player's turn.
This simplification principle lets me guess what new rules they have not revealed yet. My guesses are probably wrong, but it is an amusing game.
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I do sort of assume that we'll get spell-points and an equivalent pool for martial extraordinary abilities. There are enough of those in PF1, it's a good design space, and all of the same reasons that the designers have cited for moving to spell-points also hold when applied to the similar martial abilities. So I'd really be surprised to see the designers give that up. But I guess we'll see.
I would prefer they call them energy points, you can use energy for both magical and mundane effects. Also every class should get them and it could be used as a buffer against energy drain effects.
I very much doubt that we’ll have “Stamina Points”. If we did, they would have been at least mentioned in either the Fighter or Rogue Blogs, or in one of the Playtest videos.
If Fighter had a pool of Stamina Points and Powers that spend them, then the Fighter player would have at least mentioned them, if only to have a basic understanding of how to play their character, like the Cleric player did. Especially since a Fighter Feat like “Sudden Charge” would likely consume at least 1 Stamina Point to use.
Also, because Channel Energy is a Uses/Day mechanic, I’m inclined to believe that Paizo is only going to be using Spell Points for Casters to cast what were previously Domain/School/Bloodline Spell-Like Abilities (as well as any new PF2 class abilities that are going to work similarly) so that characters who gain multiple Spell-point reliant abilities (such as having 2 domains) can merge their pools together and only need to track that one pool for those abilities. My question is, will a Wizard’s Spell Point pool stack with a Cleric’s and allow then more dialy uses of their Domain Powers?
Everything else will probably still be using a Stat Mod +X Uses/Day Mechanic.
That is an astute observation--all examples of fighter abilities consume extra actions rather than any kind of limited points. You have convinced me.
Which brings up an odd thought: what if the PF2 barbarian was like that too? The barbarian would no longer have 2*(level+1)+Con rounds of rage. Instead, the barbarian would spend an action at the beginning of each turn in order to rage for the rest of the round. The barbarian would also have Sudden Charge, so that he could spend an action to rage and the other two actions to charge and attack. A barbarian adjacent to an opponent already would rage, attack, and attack.
Paizo would work Con bonus and fatigue into there somehow. My preliminary guesses to their plan all involve counting rounds of rage, which would tarnish an elegant simplification that no longer counts rounds of rage.
Bardic performance could be like that, too: one action each turn to sing for that round. A bard feat at middle levels might allow him to maintain the song as a free action at the cost of one spell point.
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I would prefer they call them energy points, you can use energy for both magical and mundane effects. Also every class should get them and it could be used as a buffer against energy drain effects.
Hard pass on universal "class points" that are also needed for non class things.
*side eyes Starfinder*
Cleric preview shows this is not the case. Domain Powers are "cast" with spell points, one point for the basic ability, your pool starts equal to your Wisdom (not your WisMod). Channel Energy is different, it has separate uses of 3+ChaMod per day.Thanks. I was genuinely confused on that point.
So for Clerics their limited resources are:
* Spell slots (prepared)
* Spell points (spontaneous - but can only be used for your domain spells)
* Channel energy (can only be used for harm/heal)Interesting. So for druids I could see spell points + wild shape, bards get spell points + bardic music. Hopefully we don't see something equivalent for fighter and rogues.
I don't know, personally I think an equivalent for fighters and rogues can work, perhaps for some special attack maneuvers, like a whirlwind lunge, or some stronger kinds of debilitating strikes from the rogue side, and even some extraordinary moves like smashing the ground with a hammer to knock groups of enemies prone and create difficult terrain, or a debilitating strike that forces a save or die, like stealing your targets heart or something.
I don't know, personally I think an equivalent for fighters and rogues can work, perhaps for some special attack maneuvers, like a whirlwind lunge, or some stronger kinds of debilitating strikes from the rogue side, and even some extraordinary moves like smashing the ground with a hammer to knock groups of enemies prone and create difficult terrain, or a debilitating strike that forces a save or die, like stealing your targets heart or something.Cleric preview shows this is not the case. Domain Powers are "cast" with spell points, one point for the basic ability, your pool starts equal to your Wisdom (not your WisMod). Channel Energy is different, it has separate uses of 3+ChaMod per day.Thanks. I was genuinely confused on that point.
So for Clerics their limited resources are:
* Spell slots (prepared)
* Spell points (spontaneous - but can only be used for your domain spells)
* Channel energy (can only be used for harm/heal)Interesting. So for druids I could see spell points + wild shape, bards get spell points + bardic music. Hopefully we don't see something equivalent for fighter and rogues.
Agreed. I think that not giving any mechanics that restricted the use of abilities for non spellcasters in 1e overly restricted what abilities could exist since they all had to be balanced as if you'd be constantly using them.
I generally did not like swashbuckler/gunslinger grit/panache. I can understand them for spellcasters as it consolidates a bunch of X times per day abilities. But I really don't want it on non-spellcasters as it removes yet another point of differentiation. We've already made all classes full BAB classes, let's not go completely ridiculous.
I generally did not like swashbuckler/gunslinger grit/panache. I can understand them for spellcasters as it consolidates a bunch of X times per day abilities. But I really don't want it on non-spellcasters as it removes yet another point of differentiation. We've already made all classes full BAB classes, let's not go completely ridiculous.
Maybe melee will have stamina points.
Performing cool martial abilities will tire the rogues and fighters?
I would prefer they call them energy points, you can use energy for both magical and mundane effects. Also every class should get them and it could be used as a buffer against energy drain effects.
A rose by any other name ....
PF2 is borrowing the concept of powers from 5e.
It does not matter what you name the pool of points you use as fuel, the underlying mechanics is what matters.
I generally did not like swashbuckler/gunslinger grit/panache. I can understand them for spellcasters as it consolidates a bunch of X times per day abilities. But I really don't want it on non-spellcasters as it removes yet another point of differentiation. We've already made all classes full BAB classes, let's not go completely ridiculous.
Wait, all classes have full BAB now? I thought the whole weapon proficiency ranks (the skilled/master/legendary thing) was the new equivalent, which some classes get at different levels. Edit: I stand corrected.
My main issue with most fighters/pure martials I have played in d&d and pathfinder is that your options tend to be quite limited both in and out of combat, with your in-combat stuff generally being either "I hit things", or grappling (or the equivalent).
While I have yet to try the two, I liked the concept of grit from gunslinger and swashbuckler, since they gave you more options to dealing with combat, and in some cases, out of combat problems.
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Wait, all classes have full BAB now? I thought the whole weapon proficiency ranks (the skilled/master/legendary thing) was the new equivalent, which some classes get at different levels.
Well, everyone adds their level to all attacks. Some also add +1 to +3 from Proficiency, mind you, but that's a small difference compared to BAB differences in PF1.
Wait, all classes have full BAB now? I thought the whole weapon proficiency ranks (the skilled/master/legendary thing) was the new equivalent, which some classes get at different levels.Well, everyone adds their level to all attacks. Some also add +1 to +3 from Proficiency, mind you, but that's a small difference compared to BAB differences in PF1.
Oh, I forgot about that. Thanks for the heads up. I wonder how well it will help spell range attacks and blasting.