SE
S
S
T
Y
Enemy, Space, Tree, You.
You're hiding behind Tree, but you have a clear shot at your Enemy, so you're able to shoot as a standard and stealth as a move to not be noticed. Normally don't try in surprise round since you can't restealth.
While the RAW might make sniping from behind a tree terrible, bushes, shrubs and other "Low Obstacles" are fine.
A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.
What am I missing?
That Sniping takes a move action. That this move action doesn't need to be made as movement.
Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Edit: oh, now I see what your problem was. I thought you meant that if you had to move, then you'd lose your cover.
Also, if I understand the Cover rules too, in your scenario if my character, the "Y" above, is benefitting from Cover to use it for Stealth then he's also benefitting from an AC bonus. Since my enemy is 20' from me, that enemy gains the same benefits from Cover as I receive right?
Not to derail the thread, but wouldn't you be able to make ranged attacks without suffering from cover in Chess Pwn's example?
You choose your lower-right corner, and attempt to trace a line to all corners of the enemy's square. While there's no problem with tracing a line to the defender's right corners, the left corners are a bit more ambiguous.
The lines to the defender's left corners passes through directly between the square holding the tree, and an empty square. Does this mean that the line passes through both squares (which seems unfair), or do you choose the most favorable side?
what he mean is that one can not snipe in a surprise round since to snipe you must:
shoot (standard) and use move action to stealth immediately. and in surprise rounds you can only do one.
so one can't snipe in surprise round which kinda goes all against sniping main purpose...
also if that makes you feel like your missing something. the master sniper feat let you snipe two times in a round as a full round action - can't be used in surprise round at all.
conclusion? real snipers in pathfinder start a fight, go into hiding then start sniping...
nah, real snipers are bandits that ambush.....
it's weird that the ability that this rogue archetype gets is the only one I've seen that allows you to snipe properly during the surprise round.
Edit: I found 2 feats that will let you snipe in the surprise round
River Raider (which requires that you start the round in water) & Ambush Squad (which is a teamwork feat and so it doesn't work unless you have an ally that also has the teamwork feat)
the bandit's ambush ability seems to be far more versatile.
The Enemy doesn't have cover since you're ranged. You pick one corner and no line to the enemies corners cross a barrier.
If you get to act in the Surprise Round, and your opponent doesn't, you get your Sneak Attack Damage whether they can see you or not, right? Isn't that pretty much the definition of Flatfooted: before you have acted in Combat?what he mean is that one can not snipe in a surprise round since to snipe you must:
shoot (standard) and use move action to stealth immediately. and in surprise rounds you can only do one.
so one can't snipe in surprise round which kinda goes all against sniping main purpose...
also if that makes you feel like your missing something. the master sniper feat let you snipe two times in a round as a full round action - can't be used in surprise round at all.conclusion? real snipers in pathfinder start a fight, go into hiding then start sniping...
Yes, but the whole point of sniping is to remain concealed after your attack. The written rules for sniping preclude doing so during the surprise round. Which is silly.
Besides, sniping isn't really made for sneak attack--the maximum range for sneak attack is (usually) 30 feet. Sniping is for hiding in the brush and taking long-distance shots without the enemy being able to figure out whence they're getting murdered. If it works correctly, you can take a shot, re-Stealth, then next turn Stealthily move to another location to do it all again, leaving the enemy utterly flummoxed as it dies. But if you snipe during the surprise round, it doesn't work at all--the first shot leaves you visible.
Edit: I found 2 feats that will let you snipe in the surprise round
River Raider (which requires that you start the round in water) & Ambush Squad (which is a teamwork feat and so it doesn't work unless you have an ally that also has the teamwork feat)the bandit's ambush ability seems to be far more versatile.
Check it.
LookoutOnly way to make a full-round attack in the surprise round that I know of.
Check it.
Lookout
Only way to make a full-round attack in the surprise round that I know of.
Interesting, It's basically a better version of Ambush Squad since it lacks any requirements and still does something if a team mate can't act during the surprise round.
So, I guess non-rogue snipers just have to come in pairs or at least have an animal friend that shares their teamwork feats.
When does "combat start"?
Does combat start when you decide to fire the arrow? When you fire the arrow? Or when the target notices that an arrow has flew by / hit them?
I would argue that initiative is rolled when the arrow is loosed. If the arrow is not loosed, there is no combat, so no sense in initiative before then. If loosing the arrow is the thing that causes initiative to be rolled, would you penalize the shooter their standard action in order to "shoot it" even though it happened "before" the surprise round?
If noone was aware of the archer, I would say combat starts when he does loose the arrow, and he could not lose an action as it was indeed before initiative was rolled. If however someone had noticed the bow being readied to attack, then this triggers the initiative roll and the shooter shoots during the surprise turn.
Of course, if the shooter managed a good position, it would require a crazy passive Perception, which I'm not even sure exists by RAW in Pathfinder, or being suspicious enough to have rolled a Perception check and have a crazy bonus on it, to actually notice the shooter before he has the time to shoot.
Well, yeah, I was assuming stealthy success!
It would be kind of like this....
Archer is hiding off the side of a trail. Victim is walking down the trail. Archer makes a stealth check to hide behind tree. Victim will get an opposed perception check. If victim wins, he will be aware of the archer and (potentially) combat starts. Kind of depends on what Victim does.
If victim fails, he keeps walking down trail. Archer already had the arrow nocked. Archer just needs to lean out and loose the arrow. Generally, I wouldn't require another stealth check for this. However, I may if you have Leopold's Singing Longbow or something. The victim may hear you snap a twig, brush some leaves, the Leopold's Singing Longbow burst into song, or something like that.
Anyway, if Victim doesn't beat those stealth checks prior to combat, then yeah, I think combat would officially "start" when he arrow is loosed. Archer can fire again or make a snipe/stealth check.
As soon as the sniper says "I want to shoot that guy", combat begins and initiative is rolled. Then the surprise round starts, during which the sniper can shoot that guy. Then normal rounds start. You don't get to shoot once on the surprise round as well as once before the surprise round.
just need to change the rules to "stealth while sniping is a move action unless in suprise round in which it has to be a 5-ft step to re-stealth". there all done.
As soon as the sniper says "I want to shoot that guy", combat begins and initiative is rolled. Then the surprise round starts, during which the sniper can shoot that guy. Then normal rounds start. You don't get to shoot once on the surprise round as well as once before the surprise round.I mean, I agree, but it just doesn't feel right in some scenarios. With a bow, a person could be far enough away that the arrow would have to travel for seconds through the air before striking the target.
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, for practical reasons), the rules don't really account for that level of real-world mechanics.
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It says it takes an "Immediate Action," and the Combat Rules don't say you can take Immediate Actions during the Surprise Round, only 1 Standard or Move Action plus Free Actions. But it says you can use it "whenever the Rogue strikes from hiding."
Swift, and by association, immediate actions can be taken anytime you can take a free action.
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
RAW wise, Blahpers has stated the rule correctly. I personally play more in line with what zza ni suggested.
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, for practical reasons), the rules don't really account for that level of real-world mechanics.As soon as the sniper says "I want to shoot that guy", combat begins and initiative is rolled. Then the surprise round starts, during which the sniper can shoot that guy. Then normal rounds start. You don't get to shoot once on the surprise round as well as once before the surprise round.I mean, I agree, but it just doesn't feel right in some scenarios. With a bow, a person could be far enough away that the arrow would have to travel for seconds through the air before striking the target.
i have played games that do it's interesting to watch to archers hit each other for lethal damage.
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Sniping is best done in a team scenario. Let someone else initiate combat. Use your surprise round to get into better position rather than to fire.
Either that, or take your shot, then skip the next round and use bluff to distract then get back into hiding.
(Or use a Goz mask and a smoke stick and get your full attack in...)