On setting and flavor - Why I oppose some "player choice" options in the core.

[HWalsh]

Athaleon wrote:

I guess it's time to get down to brass tacks.

Narrative Gamers don't actually lose anything as this option is opened up.

Yes they do.

As the Narrative gamer derives a large part of their enjoyment from the game based on the setting. In this case they enjoy the idea that Paladins are only Lawful Good. Thus removing that means they lose that, which directly hurts their enjoyment of the game.

[Deadmanwalking]

HWalsh wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

I guess it's time to get down to brass tacks.

Narrative Gamers don't actually lose anything as this option is opened up.

Yes they do.

As the Narrative gamer derives a large part of their enjoyment from the game based on the setting. In this case they enjoy the idea that Paladins are only Lawful Good. Thus removing that means they lose that, which directly hurts their enjoyment of the game.

The issue with this, which I brought up in my first post in this very thread, which you never responded to at all, is that this is only true in the most technical possible sense.

It is currently possible, in the setting, to have an Antipaladin of LE or CE Alignment, and a character with just about every
paladin feature anyone can actually detect of any alignment whatsoever. They don't have Paladin written on their sheet, but can call themselves such in setting and there's basically no in-universe way to prove otherwise in many cases.

So this is not actually a change in the setting that characters within the setting would notice, and thus not a narrative problem. It's just a player-facing rules/aesthetic issue.

[thflame]

HWalsh wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

I guess it's time to get down to brass tacks.

Narrative Gamers don't actually lose anything as this option is opened up.

Yes they do.

As the Narrative gamer derives a large part of their enjoyment from the game based on the setting. In this case they enjoy the idea that Paladins are only Lawful Good. Thus removing that means they lose that, which directly hurts their enjoyment of the game.

You can ban non-LG Paladins in your games. You can also ask Paizo to ban non-LG Paladins in PFS. (Other PFS members should get to vote as well) But, since Pathfinder is not strictly used for the Golarion setting, options should exist to allow people to play that characters they want, even if they don't fit in Golarion.

Furthermore, there is basically ZERO lore implications in Golarion to ban the existence of Paladin like characters who are champions of their particular ideologies.

I believe Blackguards, Anti-Paladins, and Grey Paladins are Core. That stuff already exists.

I am also a Narrative gamer, within the Narrative that I write. I don't allow stuff that goes against the story I am trying to tell. But that doesn't mean that I want to petition a company to only write their game for the story I want to tell.

People use PF for hundreds, if not thousands, of worlds and stories. They don't care about Golarion, because their games don't take place in Golarion. I would guess that the majority of PF players fall into this boat.

It is a heck of a lot easier to say, "this doesn't exist in my game" than it is to homebrew something you want.

[Athaleon]

HWalsh wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

I guess it's time to get down to brass tacks.

Narrative Gamers don't actually lose anything as this option is opened up.

Yes they do.

As the Narrative gamer derives a large part of their enjoyment from the game based on the setting. In this case they enjoy the idea that Paladins are only Lawful Good. Thus removing that means they lose that, which directly hurts their enjoyment of the game.

Its not being taken away from you, you're telling yourself that it's gone, according to logic that's been poked full of holes by now.

[Heather 540]

HWalsh wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

I guess it's time to get down to brass tacks.

Narrative Gamers don't actually lose anything as this option is opened up.

Yes they do.

As the Narrative gamer derives a large part of their enjoyment from the game based on the setting. In this case they enjoy the idea that Paladins are only Lawful Good. Thus removing that means they lose that, which directly hurts their enjoyment of the game.

YOU enjoy the idea of Paladins only being Lawful Good. NOT ALL Narrative gamers enjoy that same idea. SOME do, but NOT ALL.

I'd love to see how you would react if you play a PFS game and someone else brings a Grey Paladin that's Neutral Good.

[Diego Valdez]

Removed some posts and replies to them. Please refrain from making personal attacks. Additionally, while the initial premise of this thread was interesting it very rapidly became a paladin thread identical to the other paladin threads. So I am locking this thread. You can take this discussion to one of the existing paladin threads.