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Right, so there's been a lot of back and forth about why or why not goblins should be included in the Core Rulebook. I'll openly state that I'm for it, since I think it's a pretty cool dynamic that it brings to it, and if people can accept Half-Orcs (after all, the descendants of Orcs, even if they're half human), in the long run, I think Goblins could be accepted as well, ONCE THEY PROVE THEMSELVES to their communities. That said, we have no idea how far into the future PF2 is set, or if there have been any earth-shattering events causing a large number of Goblins to turn from their old ways.
That said, the Core Rulebook is for ALL settings, not just Golarion, and there are a number of settings out there where Goblins would be common enough that they could easily feature as a normal race (Dragonlance springs to mind, as Goblins are some of the first creatures that the heroes meet. I could see one of them turning up like a gully dwarf, especially with the help of Tasslehoff Burrfoot). Anyways, the key to remember is rule #1 - What the GM says GOES. That means that if you, as a GM, are not comfortable with having Goblins in your game, simply say that they're out of bounds. Plenty of GMs do this already with classes, third-party products, certain races and even alignments.
This really should be no different.
With that out of the way, let's dive into the actual statistics.
First I think it's interesting that the Goblins got a boost to Charisma (Dex bonus and Wisdom penalty both make perfect sense), and I'm wondering if this represents their ability to grovel their way into people's good books? It'd make for very understandable reasoning for why a villain would take on a Goblin henchman.
The other thing that stands out is their speed at 25 feet. THAT used to be 30 feet (fast for their size), and normal Small size characters used to be 20. - Interesting little change, I wonder what prompted it. (Same goes for the removal of the strength penalty, but I think that's to make the Goblins more viable as fighters).
Finally, the race feats are all interesting and feel like something that a Goblin could have as a racial trend, like their racial love/fascination/unhealthy obsession with fire, for instance, being represented in "Burn it" or their junkyard tendencies with "Junk Tinkerer". As an aside, I expect to see dogslicers and horsechoppers make an appearance in the equipment section if this is to have it's maximum potential or impact.
Anyways, those are my thoughts. See you on Friday for the next round. :)
I always figured the charisma bonus had two components-
One, a meta component- goblins love to sing, goblin bards have been a thing since Burnt Offerings, so some sort of charisma bump to reinforce that would "fit."
The other, as I see it, is that if in PF2 monsters use different rules, then PC goblins are the ones with enough of a sense of self-worth to get out of their (generally awful, so far) cultural milieu.
I think your slightly off base thinking the CRB is for "all" settings. Its true that alot of the CRB is generic and easily ported over, though its been stated this go around things are going to link closer to Golarion than in the past. Id expect some work cut out for anyone who wants to play PF Forgettable Realms or Eberron for instance.
I think everyone who is not in heavy armor is getting 25ft base speed this go around. Monks and barbs and probably some ancestries will increase that I imagine. Also, the drop of a penalty to strength makes me think that Paizo listened to some of the complaints about viability of smallfolk martial characters.
Catch ya tomorrow.
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I think many have not thought of the point that the core book is not just for Golarion, but all potential settings using the rules. Good to point that out.
They haven't. because one of the playtest points is:
"Golarion-Infused"
So I expect the CRB to be about Golarion, or at the very least, way less setting neutral than the original CRB was.
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I always figured the charisma bonus had two components-
One, a meta component- goblins love to sing, goblin bards have been a thing since Burnt Offerings, so some sort of charisma bump to reinforce that would "fit."
The other, as I see it, is that if in PF2 monsters use different rules, then PC goblins are the ones with enough of a sense of self-worth to get out of their (generally awful, so far) cultural milieu.
goblins main trait is that there bundles of personality , so cha + makes sense
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I think many have not thought of the point that the core book is not just for Golarion, but all potential settings using the rules. Good to point that out.They haven't. because one of the playtest points is:
"Golarion-Infused"
So I expect the CRB to be about Golarion, or at the very least, way less setting neutral than the original CRB was.
Yes, but I've seen it described less as setting-specific and more as setting-inclusive. Naming Belkzen, the land of orcs, as a possible origin for half-orcs, or Kyonin as an example of a secluded elf settlement. A setting-neutral book would still have the same descriptions, just without the proper names.
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Yes, but I've seen it described less as setting-specific and more as setting-inclusive. Naming Belkzen, the land of orcs, as a possible origin for half-orcs, or Kyonin as an example of a secluded elf settlement. A setting-neutral book would still have the same descriptions, just without the proper names.I think many have not thought of the point that the core book is not just for Golarion, but all potential settings using the rules. Good to point that out.They haven't. because one of the playtest points is:
"Golarion-Infused"
So I expect the CRB to be about Golarion, or at the very least, way less setting neutral than the original CRB was.
That may be true, but honestly, I don't see the point. A person that will make their own setting will change whatever they want about it, Golarion infused or not.
It's not like Golarion has any hard rules that are different from the "setting neutral" core rulebook, aside from requiring a Deity for some classes (instead of allowing them to follow "Tenets"). It has guns, and technology, but that won't make it into Core anyway.
That may be true, but honestly, I don't see the point. A person that will make their own setting will change whatever they want about it, Golarion infused or not.
Sure, though the amount of Golarion specific content in the book affects the value of the book in the eye of the non-Golarion purchaser. If the book is mostly Golarion-infused then they might find little value in the book.
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That may be true, but honestly, I don't see the point. A person that will make their own setting will change whatever they want about it, Golarion infused or not.Sure, though the amount of Golarion specific content in the book affects the value of the book in the eye of the non-Golarion purchaser. If the book is mostly Golarion-infused then they might find little value in the book.
From how it has been described, a non-Golarion purchaser would find the same value either way. The setting references are just an added bonus for people who play in Golarion.
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From how it has been described, a non-Golarion purchaser would find the same value either way. The setting references are just an added bonus for people who play in Golarion.That may be true, but honestly, I don't see the point. A person that will make their own setting will change whatever they want about it, Golarion infused or not.Sure, though the amount of Golarion specific content in the book affects the value of the book in the eye of the non-Golarion purchaser. If the book is mostly Golarion-infused then they might find little value in the book.
Yep-yep, I deal in Golarion and my Homebrew and I’ve never had much of an issue ripping the flavor out to make something fit better.
The Piazo Goblin is pretty specific to Golarion though. Big headed, hates dogs and horses, doesn't believe in reading and all of that is original from the setting.
I don't particularly like this version of goblins (they are fun as a comic relief in We Be Goblins, but they fall flat for me as serious inhabitants of a world) but whether you like them or not, they are pretty unique and iconic.
I would expect that if one wanted to 'port' Goblins to a different setting and have them match how that settings goblins functioned (in Eberron goblins are scary little ninjas, not big headed buffoons) you would have to largely rewrite the entire ancestry anyway.
The Piazo Goblin is pretty specific to Golarion though. Big headed, hates dogs and horses, doesn't believe in reading and all of that is original from the setting.
I don't particularly like this version of goblins (they are fun as a comic relief in We Be Goblins, but they fall flat for me as serious inhabitants of a world) but whether you like them or not, they are pretty unique and iconic.
I would expect that if one wanted to 'port' Goblins to a different setting and have them match how that settings goblins functioned (in Eberron goblins are scary little ninjas, not big headed buffoons) you would have to largely rewrite the entire ancestry anyway.
Even in the old Core, one already had to do this with Half-Orcs and Gnomes. Particularly the latter, since they're called out as fey creatures which is of course, very Golarion.
Honestly the old Core rulebook was pretty much not setting neutral, from the core races and their origins, to the gods presented, to the spells, to Undead being alwasy Evil (in the bestiary), etc.
The only thing that made it "setting neutral" was not including a setting, but it was pretty Golarion infused to begin with.
I certainly agree with you on Gnomes, the Pathfinder Gnome was a whole new flavor (although in the Core book the new flavor isn't really backed by much mechanics.) Half-Orcs had been around for a while, and where pretty similar to other versions.
PF2 though looks like it is going to have a lot of this flavor baked in with mechanical effects, since Ancestry feats are going to be a major part of the system, not something that you see once in a while (like Racial Feats are now.) If I understand correctly, EVERY character will have some ancestry feats, and it seems likely that those feats are going to heavily connected. Burn It only makes sense if goblins as a whole are pyromaniacs, for example.
I certainly agree with you on Gnomes, the Pathfinder Gnome was a whole new flavor (although in the Core book the new flavor isn't really backed by much mechanics.) Half-Orcs had been around for a while, and where pretty similar to other versions.
PF2 though looks like it is going to have a lot of this flavor baked in with mechanical effects, since Ancestry feats are going to be a major part of the system, not something that you see once in a while (like Racial Feats are now.) If I understand correctly, EVERY character will have some ancestry feats, and it seems likely that those feats are going to heavily connected. Burn It only makes sense if goblins as a whole are pyromaniacs, for example.
It certainly seems that way, from the Goblin preview. Guess only time will really tell. Though I figure later previews will let us form a bigger picture.
I mean, if one of the Ancestry feats for Elves is to be good with bows and rapiers...
