It's right in the title. Why are Magi who use Two-Handed Weapons so rare? I can understand why base magus is best done the way it is, with the way it's set up requiring a free hand. But why aren't they used more with the archetypes? Many of them seem to favor this playstyle, and it still makes a good hybrid in a similar vein to Inquisitor or Warpriest, so why is it so rare?
The devs set the magus up so that free hand cant be used for anything else if you want to use spell combat or spellstrike. This was said by the devs when the class was being playtested.
Those are the primary class features for the class. If you can't use those you might as well play another class such as an inquisitor or warpriest which can buff itself and fight in melee.
So why play a magus if you can't use the abilities that it was designed around?
So why play a magus if you can't use the abilities that it was designed around?
Aren't there archetypes that trade away Spell Combat and Spell Strike? And besides that, sometimes people don't want divine spells, they want arcane.
So why play a magus if you can't use the abilities that it was designed around?Aren't there archetypes that trade away Spell Combat and Spell Strike? And besides that, sometimes people don't want divine spells, they want arcane.
I've seen spell combat or spellstrike altered, but never completely done away with. Even if they're traded out the question becomes "is this a good archetype for a two handed melee type". However as stated below I havent read every archetype in detail.
If you have examples that would help a two weapon melee build feel free to list them.
As for the arcane comparison, I know they're(inquisitor and warpriest) divine. My point is that they're the better mechanical option if you want to fight in melee if spell combat and spell strike are gone.
If you just want to be a melee fighter who can cast arcane spells then Eldritch Knight is an option, and you don't have class abilities that you can't use.
You also didnt answer my question as to why play a magus if you cant use the abilities it was designed around, since those abilities are the appeal of the class.
If your response is they want a two handed arcane caster then bards and bloodragers can work. Skalds might also be a good option.
So far, from a mechanical perspective, I see no reason to play a normal magus without those abilities being used. As for archetypes I dont have every one of them memorized.
Why do you think people should play a magus without spellstrike or spell combat outside of flavor, which might be better represented mechanically with a different class depending on the concept the player has.
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Spellstrike works fine with a two-handed weapon. Changing your grip is a free action so you can do that after you cast the spell, but before you deliver the touch attack.
What it doesn't work with is spell combat, and since spell combat is really what sets the Magus apart this is a pretty big deal.
I'd strongly suggest rather than using a two-handed weapon, you use a one handed weapon (like a longsword) and sometimes use two hands to weild it, getting the strength bonus. That way you can still spell combat when you need too.
There are some third party archetypes out there for a two-handed weapon Magus, but as far as I know Paizo hasn't published any that really support this style.
Only Spell Combat needs a free hand. You can do the thing Wizards do normally with quarterstaves, hold onto it with only one hand, cast the spell, then hold back onto the weapon.
Although due to action economy, I don't believe you can get away with Spell Strike during that turn.
Only a couple of exceptions in the form or archetypes that I know of.
Kapenia Dancer and Staff Magus being those (both Paizo)
No it doesn't work with two-handed weapons. As I said the devs want it not to work.
Ok, well technically it does since they only mentioned it in a post, and not in an FAQ or the rulebook, but many GM's are aware of the intent and won't allow it to work.
Kapenia Dancer and Staff Magus both do use two-handed weapons, but aren't really all that suitable for the typical two-handed weapon build (Power attacking fighter). Kapenia dancer really is asking to be a DEX build, or at least enough DEX that STR won't be maxed and it is tied to the bladed scarf, so no greatsword. Staff Magus is a good STR build, and it is a pretty good and flavorful archetype, but it is also tied to one weapon, and in practice ends up more like a longsword grip-switching than a two-handed weapon build.
Also, you absolutely can cast a spell, switch your grip (and even move as a separate move action) and then deliver a spellstrike in a single turn.
So to answer the question the lack of two handed weapons is based on known intent.
yeah I wish there was an archetype that traded out spell combat to be better for two-handed weapon use. All that do currently get rid of arcane pool or spellstrike which I'd still want.
Dave is right on IMO.
Something to be said for beating up a guy with a scarf though!
yeah I wish there was an archetype that traded out spell combat to be better for two-handed weapon use. All that do currently get rid of arcane pool or spellstrike which I'd still want.
Mind Blade can eventually use spells combat while either TWFing or THFing.
Not till late game though.
Although due to action economy, I don't believe you can get away with Spell Strike during that turn.
Adding and removing hands is a free action.
You can cast and spellstrike with a two-handed weapon in the same round.
yeah I wish there was an archetype that traded out spell combat to be better for two-handed weapon use. All that do currently get rid of arcane pool or spellstrike which I'd still want.Mind Blade can eventually use spells combat while either TWFing or THFing.
Not till late game though.
Yeah, I'm aware of that option, just I play like 90% PFS and so late game is never for me, and even still I'm not sure if I'd want to play many levels not being able to two hand and then suddenly two handing.
Guess you could always be a race with Fey Magic or dip a level of Hunter or Druid to get Shillelagh and then be a Staff Magus, not a great work around for power attacks and such, but would give a 2d6 1H weapon that can be boosted with Magus fun. Still need an 11 in a possible dump stat, but might be interesting.
If you don't care about spell combat or spellstrike then the alternatives for a gish are slower buffing to fight, and occasional blasting. A bloodrager, bard or an eldritch knight can do one or both of those, probably better than the sad archetypes of magus which lose spell combat like armored battlemage.
Synergies between multiple armed creatures, two-handed fighting and spell combat could be very OP if allowed to happen.
Spell Combat requires a light or one-handed weapon.
You could take a two level dip into Alchemist for a vestigial arm and two-hand a scimitar while using Spell Combat, but giving up those spell levels and class advancement really hurts.
- Bladed Brush Combat allows it on any Magus due to making the Glaive considered as not using the off-hand for all feats and -class abilities- requiering it.... and Spell Combat is a class ability requiering it.
Not a good idea for PFS.
There can be some extreme table variation.
I edited the post, Volkard, because it doesn't work.
The feat says you are not considered as using your off-hand, but it doesn't make the Glaive a one-handed weapon or a light weapon anyway. It's a two-handed weapon you manage to hold with one hand, which is different... and not compatible with Spell Combat.
When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon
It is legal for spell combat.
The table variance stems from hands free.
Vestigial Arms would bypass even the strictest reading and allow Spell Combat with a Glaive, but even then you are sacrificing spell progression and risk having a random PFS GM decide your character does not work just because Bladed Brush is polarizing and he's on the "not at my table" side of the argument.
Yeah, I figured it was mostly just a case of "Other Classes do it better". Mostly, the flavor just seems wrong for most of them to me. Skald doesn't really scream "Arcane Warrior" (unless you use the archetype), Bloodrager doesn't period, and Bard kinda can work but not really since it doesn't get any good proficiencies. Eldritch Knight is the one with the flavor most like what I'm looking for. It just seems very hard to get working. The only other way I've seen potential for a two-handed arcane user kind of build is through Vigilante archetypes, which work decently well.
Estoc, 2D4, 18-20/x2, finesse, and is a one handed weapon if you have EWP:Estoc, otherwise it's two handed.
Make it Agile and have fun. Use any Magus archetype you want. No dip or multiclassing required. Humans and Half Elves can get it for free as an alternative racial feature.
I think there are good balance reasons why spell combat doesn't work with a 2 hander. The damage a magus can do in short bursts is absolutely obscene. Held charge intensified shocking grasp plus iterative attacks plus additional shocking grasp with arcane pool and a vicious weapon is almost game breaking. Allowing us to do this with a greatsword would be a mistake.
As a note, Armored Battlemage is the only magus archetype that I'm aware of that completely trades out spell combat. It is not fantastic, but if you focus on spell striking and possibly reach/AoO fishing for buff rounds it is workable IMO.
Isn't releasing your grip a free action?
Why not 2H power attack with an Estoc or bastard sword, free your off hand for your spells as a free action, use spell combat/spellstrike. Rinse. Repeat.
Or am I missing something obvious?
Isn't releasing your grip a free action?
Why not 2H power attack with an Estoc or bastard sword, free your off hand for your spells as a free action, use spell combat/spellstrike. Rinse. Repeat.
Or am I missing something obvious?
Spell Combat is a full round action.
It requires a free hand for the entire action, including both casting and attacks made as part of the action.
Wow.
I have never played a Magus, so it's never been an issue to come up for me, but I have both seen others use and I have used bastard swords with 2H for the first hit in a full attack and one hand for remaining attacks. That means letting go between attacks isn't the issue, its starting the action with your second hand on the sword, got it.
That is so nick-picky, though. As if adding another .5 Str or Dex modifier is actually going to matter with intensified shocking grasp, but whatever. Rules is rules, I suppose.
I would allow a Magus to 2H an Estoc or bastard sword for the first hit and 1H it for spell combat immediately afterwards, but that's just me because I think feats you take should allow you to do neat stuff in combat.
I honestly don't really care much about Spell Combat, or Spell Strike. Ulimately, it's the flavor of Magus being an "Arcane Warrior" that draws me to it. So Armored Battlemage while being a bad archetype, does fit the bill very well.
Little necro:
In several threads about this question noone mentioned so far the possibilty to grab the generic magus weapon scimitar with both hands for two handed power attack fun plus spellstrike.
or just dip into alchemist to pick up an extra hand to help you wield the 2 handed weapon of your choice.