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Reloading seems like a really good thing to attach to your proficiency (trained expert master legendary or whatev) TBQh.
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The problem with crossbows in movies is reloading. Helsing gets a 30 bolt crossbow gun in the movie. Diablo just doesn't bother with reloading crossbows. It looks a bit silly, so it doesn't catch on.
Yeah, crossbows tend to be slow to span. The more powerful the bow the slower they tend to be (although windlass spanned bows seem to be faster than cranequin spanned ones and can pull at least equivalent weight). And the ones that aren't (like the Chinese repeating crossbows) are really really weak. But at the same time, the times in PF aren't really connected to reality for anything. You're not going to see a bowman shoot a high draw-weight longbow 3 or 4 times in 6 seconds (at least with any kind of accuracy or power), but that's normal in Pathfinder. Likewise they have muzzle loading guns being able to be shot 5 times in a minute by a completely untrained person and much faster with the right feats and class abilities, while 5 is the high end for real life well-trained soldiers.
There should certainly be a longer time to span a crossbow, but it doesn't need to be absurdly high like 3 rounds or anything. We're already playing fast and lose with reality for the times required to do things in the sake of fun. I think 1 action for a hand-crossbow (and get a wrist version of that, it's a popular trope), 2 for light (belt or lever spanned) and 3 for heavy (windlass or cranequin spanned) is reasonable. Possibly have Rapid Reload reduce the time by an action. Those numbers can of course be tweaked, but I think they're the right ballpark.
It's untrue that crossbows don't have a STR bonus in real life. They have it. It's just independent of the user: a crossbow with 80lb pull does as much "strength bonus" as a longbow with 80lb pull. The difference is you can use a cranequin to reload it if you are not able to do the 80lb pull yourself. The power that propels the bolt/arrow is still 80lb.
The same draw weight has the same potential energy in the prod, but there are other factors that alter the efficiency. Medieval crossbows had much higher draw weights than normal bows, but much shorter draw lengths. An English longbow for war tended to have a draw weight between 90 and 180 lbs (hunting bows would be much lower, like the 60-70lb). Crossbows could be anywhere between 170 lbs and 1250lbs (possibly more, 1250 is just the highest I've seen reference to). But the draw length of a longbow would be something around 30 inches while the medieval crossbow was more like 6 to 9 inches. So the crossbow has a much higher draw weight and potential energy, but is much less efficient due to the very short draw length as well as prod materials and such. The force is delivered over a much shorter distance. Crossbow bolts also tended to be lighter than arrows, but delivered at a faster speed. The numbers I've seen suggest that the energy delivered by many crossbows and longbows being fairly similar. Here's a page citing a source that found roughly equal energy delivered by a 78 lb english longbow and a 740 lb crossbow. That's a low weight for a war longbow but mid-range for a crossbow. I seem to recall seeing others giving the top ends of longbows and crossbows as similar too, I'm just not recalling which sources off the top of my head, possibly one of Tod's videos.
But yeah, I agree that the draw weight really should have an effect on damage much like the strength bonus to composite bows (and again, I'd like to see the distinction of composite and non-composite dropped and give all bows that bonus. The relation between strength and damage is always there regardless of the bow's construction). And have the spanning method reduce the strength required to span it, with spanning time as the balancing factor for the ability to have a higher strength weapon than you can pull by hand. Maybe give crossbows Deadly and possibly something for accuracy too.
BTW, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned William Tell as a crossbow fictional character.
It's a standard fantasy trope to have archers or crossbowmen of nigh paranormal accuracy, like Robin Hood or William Tell. But in PF1 it's really hard to emulate these characters, archers are instead encouraged to get as many arrows into the air as possible, even if individual attacks are less accurate.
Crossbows could be anywhere between 170 lbs and 1250lbs (possibly more, 1250 is just the highest I've seen reference to).
I know of one estimated to be 3000lbs.
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Furthermore many people seem to have a problem with crossbows in their fantasy cereal. We are not playing Lord of the Rings, get over it. Golarion is technologically advanced and magically puffed so let the other kids play with their toys.
Now give me crossbows that function and perform well.
Crossbows could be anywhere between 170 lbs and 1250lbs (possibly more, 1250 is just the highest I've seen reference to).I know of one estimated to be 3000lbs.
Nice. Must be quite the beast. Might not be the most portable, but I'd guess intended to defend against sieges. Do you have a link? I'd love to see more.
Looking around a bit more at the energies of crossbows and longbows, it seems that while crossbows are more inefficient and many have comparable energy delivered to longbows, they have a higher upper end. That 3000 lb beast probably hits like a ton of bricks, and an equivalent longbow likely couldn't be used by humans. And there was the [b]video linked to earlier in this thread by Shadrayl of the Mountain[b] with a 1270 lb crossbow (with composite prod, historical, but expensive these days, so most of the modern reproductions use only steel prods which are less efficient). It was delivering 433 J and 488 J downrange depending on the bolt weight. The numbers I've found for longbows seem to top out under 200 J. For comparison 200 J is a bit more than a .22 LR bullet, and the 488 J shot is greater than a .38 speical and comparable to some low-end 9mm loads. Maybe weak in terms of modern firearms, but in their age they were very deadly.
So thinking about this, I figure there should be an Extra-Heavy Crossbow (maybe call it the Siege Crossbow or Arbelest) to represent these true monsters. Probably use a d12 as a damage die plus strength equivalence mods. These would be even slower to span of course, and likely too cumbersome to carry around easily. Could maybe have penalties to attack unless it's braced. But I do think it's a niche that could be filled.
Furthermore many people seem to have a problem with crossbows in their fantasy cereal. We are not playing Lord of the Rings, get over it. Golarion is technologically advanced and magically puffed so let the other kids play with their toys.
Now give me crossbows that function and perform well.
The foolishness in this is that crossbows aren't some recent form of technology. Are they newer than bows? Sure, by thousands of years, if not tens of thousands. But whatever vision of the "historical era" people think of for Pathfinder, be it late or early middle ages, or even before that, the crossbow predates it by more than a thousand years. They've found (admittedly early concept) versions of crossbows going back almost 2400 years.
Please give crossbows the same special types of ammunition that bows get.
So if there's a fire arrow or blunt arrow or tangling arrow in the gear section then make bolt equivalents.
No reason not to do it and keeps bows and crossbows on an equal footing.
Please give crossbows the same special types of ammunition that bows get.
So if there's a fire arrow or blunt arrow or tangling arrow in the gear section then make bolt equivalents.
No reason not to do it and keeps bows and crossbows on an equal footing.
I like how the Ivalice games in Final Fantasy give elemental arrows to regular bows and status ailment / debuff bolts to crossbows as part of distinguishing them from each other. Would be nice to see here too. At least for special alchemical / nonmagical arrows and bolts; obviously a fire rune or entangling rune could be applied to either kind of weapon if made magical.
While I don't consider it a good thing, it's a thing I've grown to accept simply because that's the way it's always been,
That's a fallacy, and an awful reason to keep things as they are, specially those thigns that are not considered a good thing.
and nobody has bothered or shown desire to change it.That's obviously a false statement, that need no further proof to be dismissed when it's stated in a thread started by the desire to change it
Of course it's an awful reason, I never said it wasn't, but I'm forced to accept it simply because that's what every D&D/PF author published; bad crossbow rules. There is nothing said to change this concept for PF2, either. No blog post, no dev comments, not a single peep. (Because like I said, bigger hot button issues on their plate.)
And sure, people want change, but it ultimately boils down to if they have the power to do it. One thread of a handful of vocal individuals does not have that power, and I won't expect Paizo to listen or give those individuals more credence just because they are vocal about it. It's like a union on strike, more or less.
It just makes more sense to me to set my expectations low, so that when the time comes I won't be disappointed when it turns out history keeps repeating itself, much like the Exotic Crossbow counterpart that was never used.
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While I don't consider it a good thing, it's a thing I've grown to accept simply because that's the way it's always been,
That's a fallacy, and an awful reason to keep things as they are, specially those thigns that are not considered a good thing.
and nobody has bothered or shown desire to change it.That's obviously a false statement, that need no further proof to be dismissed when it's stated in a thread started by the desire to change it
BTW, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned William Tell as a crossbow fictional character, to add to Van helsing or Varric from Dragon Age not to mention Paizo's own Iconic ranger, or several fantasy tropes like dwarven crossbownmen, and multiple other characters like:
Mad Max characters
Alysa from Bloodknights
Diablo 3 iconic demon hunter
Guts from Berserk
Daryl of Walking Dead...
And, although not his primary weapon, Etienne Navar from LadyHawke used a cool looking double crossbow! I mean, yes, he did, accidentally shoot his true love with it, but it was still cool!
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They created the Gunslinger and the Bolt Ace as patch classes to fix the inherent deficiencies of firearms and crossbows as weapons in Pathfinder.
If they fix the weapons themselves in PF 2 E then they won't need to create entire classes to make the weapons usable.
Then hopefully when they make their Slinger/Swash/Ace character class it can go all in on being a flashy dashing martial class and not have all its class abilities devoted to making a single weapon type usable.
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Do you have a link?
As I recall Sir Ralph Payne-Galloway, author of Book of the Crossbow 1903, rebuilt/restored it after it had been cocked for around 500 years [and after that long it still had a draw of around 1200 lb]. As I recall he restored several pieces for museums so it was most likely one of those pieces.
As to the type, I think it was something like a Wallarmbrust [heavy siege defense crossbow].
As to a link, a quick search didn't come up with much more than some passing mentions of it on some historical weapon sites.