Batteries

[Razeluxxe]

Hey all, just looking for a clarification on Batteries. I was reading the core rulebook and noticed that you can buy a Comm Unit for 7 credits, and it comes with 80 charges. Can the battery be removed from devices like this and sold separately, (Which at 10% of the cost is 32), creating a cheat allowing for infinite credit gains, or are the charges built into the device for items like this?

[Brew Bird]

This has been brought up before. I'm inclined to think that comm unites have some sort of internal battery that's not removable, but there's been no official comment.

[Tryn]

Why does people always try to trick/break the system...

[Razeluxxe]

I think I'll have to GM a rule that allows the battery to be removed only after it's drained or something like that

[ghostunderasheet]

Not worth it sure you could but i would assume that the grade of the battery in the comms unit is not of the same quality of the ones meant to power high grade lazer weapons. Look at the real world. You can walk into any store and buy double A batteries for a few bucks and they last a while. But the better high capacity batteries with high charge/high discarge rates can go for 12 to $20 per battery. Such as 18650s the kind used in vaporizors or laptops. And while you can take those batteries out you can not run those devices on the same amount of double A's very effectivily for very long if at all. Thd comms in starfinder are most likely ran on the equivalent of the Double A's (built in)while ever the other equipment that have external swappable batteries run on higher quality higher powered 18650s equivalent. Thats not to mention LiPO batteries, Double D batteries AAA batteries and the tongue licking batteries, and the tiny hearing aid batteries. All of which are incompatible with the other kinds of devices you can't put a double A into an hearing aid. And LiPo batteries have have a different way the Power flows, it's modulated. As in it rapidly pulses its power. Which may destroy a device that is not meant for a device that doesn't take a lipo battery.
I was going to respond in a smart ass way but thought that way was better. So yes you take thd battery out but its going to be a way cheaper battery because the price of the comms is most likely the price of the battery while the circuitry and casing are just a percent like in the cents. What is 10 percent of 6 bucks?

[Kochean]

I would rule that any item that costs less than a standard battery uses less power. in so saying that one charge from a standard battery would fully charge said item.

[Razeluxxe]

This is from page 190 of the core rulebook:

Battery (High-Capacity, Super-Capacity, Ultra-Capacity)
Batteries charge powered weapons, but they can also be used
to power an array of items, including powered armor and
technological items. Batteries have a standardized size and
weight, and items that take batteries all have a slot into which
they fit, regardless of the item’s actual size. Weapons that use
batteries list the highest-capacity battery they are capable of
using as well as how many charges from the battery that each
shot consumes.

So as far as this reads, all batteries are interchangeable, save on capacity. Meaning you can pop a battery of out a comm unit and use it as ammo. Also, you can pop a battery out of a comm unit, and like I said before, sell it for more than the comm unit is worth, because it's fully charged when you buy it. This is kind of my main gripe here.

[LankyOgre]

This could be an interesting impetus for a story. If you are running low on supplies, do you keep your comm, trying to call for help or slot it in for ammo to keep yourself safe. Maybe switch it back and forth, praying that somebody hears you for the 5 minutes you have your comm on while dreading every shot required from your laser.

[VampByDay]

Razeluxxe wrote:

This is from page 190 of the core rulebook:

Battery (High-Capacity, Super-Capacity, Ultra-Capacity)
Batteries charge powered weapons, but they can also be used
to power an array of items, including powered armor and
technological items. Batteries have a standardized size and
weight, and items that take batteries all have a slot into which
they fit, regardless of the item’s actual size. Weapons that use
batteries list the highest-capacity battery they are capable of
using as well as how many charges from the battery that each
shot consumes.

So as far as this reads, all batteries are interchangeable, save on capacity. Meaning you can pop a battery of out a comm unit and use it as ammo. Also, you can pop a battery out of a comm unit, and like I said before, sell it for more than the comm unit is worth, because it's fully charged when you buy it. This is kind of my main gripe here.

Listen, here’s the main thrust of your arguement: I found a loophole that gives me infinite money and breaks the game. Can I use it?

Other responders: Common sense says no. Here are a few ways to justify it in universe.

You: But . . . loophole!

As a general rule, anything game breaking that gives you infinite money/xp/attacks a round/wombats just breaks the game and makes it unfun for everyone. When you sit down at the table, you agree to suspend disbelief enough so that you can go on crazy adventures with difficult odds. Can’t do that with infinite money. If you want to blame the writers or game designers or whatever, fine, but you have to recognize that infinite money is game breaking no matter how you justify it.

[Gary Bush]

Oh look, another battery thread! What is that, like the 10th one so far?

[Torbyne]

Overall thread count? I don't think it's at ten just yet. But some of the other threads did get a high post count. We could just go through the item chapter for all things that cost less than a battery and make a mega thread that lists each of them as a potential exploit.

[ghostunderasheet]

Razeluxxe wrote:

This is from page 190 of the core rulebook:

Battery (High-Capacity, Super-Capacity, Ultra-Capacity)
Batteries charge powered weapons, but they can also be used
to power an array of items, including powered armor and
technological items. Batteries have a standardized size and
weight, and items that take batteries all have a slot into which
they fit, regardless of the item’s actual size. Weapons that use
batteries list the highest-capacity battery they are capable of
using as well as how many charges from the battery that each
shot consumes.

So as far as this reads, all batteries are interchangeable, save on capacity. Meaning you can pop a battery of out a comm unit and use it as ammo. Also, you can pop a battery out of a comm unit, and like I said before, sell it for more than the comm unit is worth, because it's fully charged when you buy it. This is kind of my main gripe here.

yes ruzelexx batteries do have standard sizes but can you fit a double d battery into a triple AAA battery slot? those are standard battery sizes. A cell phone is going to be to small to take an ammo clip sized battery.

Size matters. How much power it holds matters. And is it an analog battery or pulse modulation battery. And how fast the battery can be drained also matters.
Your wanting to sell a volovo for the price of a Ferrari. No merchats going to fall for that. And if they are dirty this would give them a perfect reason to gouge you for everything you got. Since your being dumb or really high on some drug or sick or thinking your so slick you could pull a fast one over on them.
Heres hoping if your gm lets this fly once he raises the price of the comm units in your game.
Tech is cheap its design and the way something is power that jacks up the price. That and demand.

[Razeluxxe]

This isnt real life. Just saying 0-o

[ghostunderasheet]

Batteries are common items in starfinder you can buy normal batteries for 5 buck with gm permission. The batteries that are listed are specialty batteries. That are better more powerful and larger then common batteries you can find in common shopping centers. If starfinder guns were what laptops are for our world you would not go to walmart to get laptop batteries. You would got to the computer store.
And your wrong there is common sense in pathfinder its called wisdom.

[Metaphysician]

Any item that doesn't specify how many charges it uses, does not use the same battery type as guns. A comm unit has a "battery", but no, it is not the 20/20 charge thing you stick in your laser pistol. So no, you can't yank it out to stick it in a gun, and no, you can't sell it.

The batteries listed in the "Ammo" section are *not* the only 'batteries' that exist in the entire setting.

[Gary Bush]

But they are the only ones that work for weapons and armor.

[Razeluxxe]

Gary Bush wrote:

But they are the only ones that work for weapons and armor.

I mean, that would be great, but I didnt find anything in the core rulebook that quotes that there are two different kinds of batteries. The Core Rulebook specifically states:

Battery (High-Capacity, Super-Capacity, Ultra-Capacity)
Batteries charge powered weapons, but they can also be used
to power an array of items, including powered armor and
technological items. Batteries have a standardized size and
weight, and items that take batteries all have a slot into which
they fit, regardless of the item’s actual size.

[Vexies]

Razeluxxe wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

But they are the only ones that work for weapons and armor.

I mean, that would be great, but I didnt find anything in the core rulebook that quotes that there are two different kinds of batteries. The Core Rulebook specifically states:

Battery (High-Capacity, Super-Capacity, Ultra-Capacity)
Batteries charge powered weapons, but they can also be used
to power an array of items, including powered armor and
technological items. Batteries have a standardized size and
weight, and items that take batteries all have a slot into which
they fit, regardless of the item’s actual size.

well Paizo's standard rule is if something is a obvious exploit or creates a infinite loop anything than its illegal. Multiple people have pointed out why its not or shouldn't be possible. It shouldn't require the rule book to specifically tell you something shouldn't be allowed when its so obvious. Even if you were to allow them to only be removed when they are drained (which makes even less sense) you still have a economy exploit that will unbalance your game.. so really the ball is in your court as the GM. If you want a non-broken game the choice is pretty clear and you have been given plenty of plausible reasons to tell your PC's why.

[VampByDay]

Razeluxxe wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

But they are the only ones that work for weapons and armor.

I mean, that would be great, but I didnt find anything in the core rulebook that quotes that there are two different kinds of batteries. The Core Rulebook specifically states:

Battery (High-Capacity, Super-Capacity, Ultra-Capacity)
Batteries charge powered weapons, but they can also be used
to power an array of items, including powered armor and
technological items. Batteries have a standardized size and
weight, and items that take batteries all have a slot into which
they fit, regardless of the item’s actual size.

Okay, so, again . . . there is an exploit you found that gives you infinite money. The options for you are 1) Break the game and make it so no one else at your table has fun. 2) Play that game with your friends where you have infinite money and do what you want, while we will play the game how we want. Or 3) Accept what everyone else on the boards has said: that common sense overrides this one loophole, and choose any one of the myriad in-universe explanations for why it doesn't work that we have come up with.

[Kitsch Zero]

The loophole thing is dumb (and also doesn't give you infinite money, just cheaper batteries, cause a battery resale value is 6, and a new commlink costs 7).

But the question is still an important one. Even non-cheaters will eventually come to the situation where they've run out of gun ammo, and the rules currently say they can scavenge for a few more shots from their personal equipment. It's literally the plot of one of the original Star Trek episodes, so its not exactly a weird edge case.

My personal opinion is keep the battery as it is, and charge 27 credits for a commlink.

[The Ragi]

Kitsch Zero wrote:

The loophole thing is dumb (and also doesn't give you infinite money, just cheaper batteries, cause a battery resale value is 6, and a new commlink costs 7).

A 80 charge battery is considered super-capacity and costs 390 credits. The personal comm unit does come with a 80 capacity and a 1/hour usage.

There's a quick fix, but it has to come from Paizo as a FAQ:

Page 218

Quote:

Unless otherwise specified, technological items use a battery

and are subject to special abilities that work against items using
batteries, charges, or technology. If an item doesn’t specify a
usage, it needs very little power and has an internal battery
designed to function for decades or even centuries without
recharging. Items with a specified usage use a battery that
comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be
recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations,
or they can be replaced

Just remove the usage and capacity from the comm unit, or change it to a regular 20 charges battery.

A loophole is a loophole is a loophole. It's hard to argue "common sense" when you place a 390 credit battery in a 7 credit object.

At least the craft system was completely neutered in Starfinder - if it was like Pathfinder you could exploit this for even more profit.

[The Ragi]

Or, if you want to keep comm unit scarcity (you've been ten days in the jungle, your comm has ran out of power!), downgrade the capacity to 10, just like the portable light devices in the same table, and adjust the usage to 8 hours per charge.

It almost closes the loophole and keeps an important feature of the device intact.

[Gary Bush]

It truly amazes me how much time people have spent on this whole battery question.

It is an exploit to use the rules as they appear in the CRB. It is an obvious loophole. If your home game GM does not care, great. If the GM does care, well that bites for your group.

This question try only matters for Society play. Hopefully a complete solution will come soon.

For everyone else, do what you want.

Pretty simple, really.

[Jhaeman]

Hopefully this issue will get fixed once the Core Rulebook gets reprinted and they can come out with some official errata.

[ghostunderasheet]

Razeluxxe wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

But they are the only ones that work for weapons and armor.

I mean, that would be great, but I didnt find anything in the core rulebook that quotes that there are two different kinds of batteries. The Core Rulebook specifically states:

Battery (High-Capacity, Super-Capacity, Ultra-Capacity)
Batteries charge powered weapons, but they can also be used
to power an array of items, including powered armor and
technological items. Batteries have a standardized size and
weight, and items that take batteries all have a slot into which
they fit, regardless of the item’s actual size.

From the starjammer site but its the same in the players hand book under technological items. the last paragraph of the splat info.

Of course, there’s a vast array of technological devices available in most settlements—well beyond the number that could possibly be presented in any real-world book. In general, any minor piece of equipment with a real-world equivalent (alarm clock, camera, digital keys for Vehicles you own, timer, watch, and so on) can be purchased with GM approval, costs 5 credits and has light bulk.

Normal batteries would be in that list. These special batteries are listed because they are special. And are not used in common military grade weapons and armor and tents.

[BigNorseWolf]

You cant use a battery with more charges than a device can handle. So that 80 charge tablet has so much power it will make a laser machine gun blow a fuse.

Must be a samsung......

[BigNorseWolf]

Vexies wrote:

well Paizo's standard rule is if something is a obvious exploit or creates a infinite loop anything than its illegal.

More of a guideline than a rule...

But its also a rule that you're allowed to do stuff that you're allowed to do. In this case, recharge a 10 shot laser weapon

On the one hand, you have a raw legal but sensibly questionable buy a maglight for the battery.

On the other hand, you have an explicitly not allowed option to use a 20 shot battery in a 10 shot rifle.

So you could add a 30 credit battery, Low capacity to the table or something but within the current rule set raiding the maglight is your only option.

[Thanshin]

Tryn wrote:

Why does people always try to trick/break the system...

How else could we have gotten from Chainmail to Pathfinder?

[Losobal]

its like they're dead set on not letting someone have more than 5-20 shots from a weapon :P

[Sven Vincent]

Losobal wrote:

its like they're dead set on not letting someone have more than 5-20 shots from a weapon :P

Arc Rifles all get 40-50 shots per battery.

[Metaphysician]

Also, it only makes sense that people would prefer more damage over more shots. More shots mean you reload less often. More damage mean the fight is over sooner, making reloading irrelevant.