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I like the idea some have brought up of making a component pouch a spell focus item you can choose to use. Like a wand, holy symbol, general talisman, or otherwise. That's a neat way to work it. Assuming focii are a thing in the new system.
But the useless descriptions of costless material components for each spell? Get rid of them. A waste of precious book space that could be better spent adding more character options or clarifying rules. Most 'components' started as bad jokes back in the original days of D&D anyways, and now we're chained to them by tradition. I'd be happy to see them go the way of ThAC0.
No issue with expensive components, though. Honestly, those seem fitting, especially for rituals. (Assuming the game has ritual-style magic.) Seems like it'd take an expenditure in order to create things like a summoning circle or bring somebody back to life.
Eliminate trivial material components, add in a second hand free requirement in its place. One hand to perform the primary somatic component, the second hand that manipulates the M component is instead simply a complimentary/secondary free hand required to complete the waggling of fingers and assorted magical gestures.
Feats, traits or whatever that permit having something in the primary gesturing hand do not replace the second free hand requirement.
Trivial components eliminated from the spells' 'stat block' free up some space. Free up enough print space ...
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Sure, if the GM is a manipulative bastard who violates wealth by level.
You can't violate WBL for an pre-existing character. WBL was created to give a guideline for DMs on how much wealth to give to a newly created character that was starting out above 1st level. It was never intended as a shackle for both players and GMs to chain them to a specific level of wealth for the entire existence of a given character. That's rather moronic. Why bother defeating the dragon sitting on a mountain of gold if it's a pre-determined fact that the mountain will collapse and 99% of that mountain of gold will never be accessible? People who thing that WBL should be strictly followed for existing characters have a dearth of imagination, and should probably look into other hobbies.
Material components are the magic system. It is one of the few things that makes a D&D (type-thus, PF) wizard different than all other manifestations of this archetype.
Wizards need material components. #batguano
Sorcerers...yeah...they shouldn't need it.
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Expensive material components should remain for powerful spells. If anything, I'd like to see powerful spells like Teleport require very rare foci that are themselves an adventure to obtain.
Mundane materials for common spells should continue not being tracked. Not only is the accounting a pain, but it makes the party dynamic revolve even harder and faster around the Wizard: It's one thing to plunder the dragon's hoard for an Astral Shard (or whatever) that gives the party access to Plane Shift from then on, and quite another to say "sorry guys, but we need to find another cave and scrape more bat s!#% off the walls or we won't have Fireball anymore."
Sure, if the GM is a manipulative bastard who violates wealth by level.You can't violate WBL for an pre-existing character. WBL was created to give a guideline for DMs on how much wealth to give to a newly created character that was starting out above 1st level. It was never intended as a shackle for both players and GMs to chain them to a specific level of wealth for the entire existence of a given character. That's rather moronic. Why bother defeating the dragon sitting on a mountain of gold if it's a pre-determined fact that the mountain will collapse and 99% of that mountain of gold will never be accessible? People who thing that WBL should be strictly followed for existing characters have a dearth of imagination, and should probably look into other hobbies.
It doesn't need to be followed to the copper, but the CR system and monster stat progression is designed to scale in proportion to player stat progression, which flows directly from WBL.
Does every spell in the game need material components?
Or just the ones that provide stuff beyond the usual stuff of protection, mobility, reconnaissance, "buffs" and damage?
Tracking minutae such as M components of no significant cost and arcane foci of no significant cost is a hassle, not a reward.
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I don't mind costly components. They're here to prevent PCs from spamming powerful spells (in our Emerald Spire campaign, we would just spamm Resurect if we could).
But I do think we sould get rid of common components, like the butter for Grease. It's ridiculous. Can you imagine a Wizard having a pile of minitature targets in his backpack just so he can cast True Strike ? Most of the time, these components are ignored by buying a component bag, which is then ignored for the rest of the campaign and just rots away as one line in a player's inventory, never to be used again, or because the PC is a Sorcerer. These components really don't play a part in the story and just make things cartoony.
I'm talking about spells for which the material component is ridiculous/useless. Some spells are different. For instance, Dragon Breath requires you to have a scale of the right color, and Alarm requires you to have a bell (I remember seeing in Carrion Crown a room where you can actually spot an Alarm spell by spotting a litle bell attached to a string). Those spells, which ACTIVELY use their component, should keep them as focus, just like the weapon as focus for the Dancing Blade spell.
I strongly disagree.
Material components are one of the things that makes magic feel like magic. Its flavorful and promotes the idea that "how" your character does their magic and the description that flows from that, is as important as the spells effects.
Its also a tool for DM's to control the most powerful class in the game.
Costless material components aren't much of a leash. If they start being something the DM limits, most wizards will just take Eschew Materials.
I don't really want to see material components go, and think a cost on things like Resurrection are important, but I think calling them a constraint on wizards is being generous.
Does every spell in the game need material components?
Or just the ones that provide stuff beyond the usual stuff of protection, mobility, reconnaissance, "buffs" and damage?Tracking minutae such as M components of no significant cost and arcane foci of no significant cost is a hassle, not a reward.
Having them does not necessitate tracking them.
I would hate cheap/'free' components if they were tracked, fortunately PF1 doesn't track them
They do in a way, via an easily obliterated item ... i.e., a feat tax of sorts.
When M components meaningfully contributed something, it is one thing. When they are effectively, for most spells, a series of "taxes" that primarily affects 2 classes ...
1 gold per pouch is a heck of a cheap tax.
I bet the fighter wishes his taxes were so cheap.
Fighter's taxes have much higher hardness, hp and require a Sunder maneuver to dispatch.
Does every spell in the game need material components?
Or just the ones that provide stuff beyond the usual stuff of protection, mobility, reconnaissance, "buffs" and damage?Tracking minutae such as M components of no significant cost and arcane foci of no significant cost is a hassle, not a reward.
Having them does not necessitate tracking them.
I would hate cheap/'free' components if they were tracked, fortunately PF1 doesn't track them
Actually, PF1 tracks them. PLAYERS do not track them, using components bags or Eschew Component at level 1 because they don't want to be bothered by it. But, without those, you're supposed to track them.
Who doesn't use a few component pouches?
Cheap components existing is kind of a weak problem to have in the face of component pouches. They add a level of flavor to spellcasting that I personally like. Costly components are an obvious balance factor and limiter to powerful spell effects and should remain. Time or temporary penalty "limiters" don't really limit PCs and permanent penalty limiters are too harsh for an adventurer.
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Who doesn't use a few component pouches?
Why keep using those components if everyone just uses component pouches in order to not bother about them ? Free components have been rendered useless by this behaviour. We should just get rid of them.
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The pouches do come into play during jailbreak/shipwreck scenarios, when the party is searched (a pouch full of newt eyes and snake tongues would give away that you're a spellcaster), or if the wizard's hands are free but he can't reach his component pouch. Rare situations, but they do happen.
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Who doesn't use a few component pouches?Why keep using those components if everyone just uses component pouches in order to not bother about them ? Free components have been rendered useless by this behaviour. We should just get rid of them.For flavor. It adds immense value to the setting and story for Wizard Magic to be cast with ingredients like this.
It's not a cost of entry, it's just an amazing way for things to be.
So you force your spellcaster players to write down all the trivial components like bat guano for every random spell on their character sheets and invoke them when casting a spell? That kind of excessive homework is some tedious crap no one should have to put up with.
So you force your spellcaster players to write down all the trivial components like bat guano for every random spell on their character sheets and invoke them when casting a spell? That kind of excessive homework is some tedious crap no one should have to put up with.Who doesn't use a few component pouches?Why keep using those components if everyone just uses component pouches in order to not bother about them ? Free components have been rendered useless by this behaviour. We should just get rid of them.For flavor. It adds immense value to the setting and story for Wizard Magic to be cast with ingredients like this.
It's not a cost of entry, it's just an amazing way for things to be.
No, the spellcaster has a component pouch that he fills off screen.
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No, the spellcaster has a component pouch that he fills off screen.So you force your spellcaster players to write down all the trivial components like bat guano for every random spell on their character sheets and invoke them when casting a spell? That kind of excessive homework is some tedious crap no one should have to put up with.Who doesn't use a few component pouches?Why keep using those components if everyone just uses component pouches in order to not bother about them ? Free components have been rendered useless by this behaviour. We should just get rid of them.For flavor. It adds immense value to the setting and story for Wizard Magic to be cast with ingredients like this.
It's not a cost of entry, it's just an amazing way for things to be.
But he and others keep talking about the "flavor" it adds to spellcasting. Well, it doesn't add "flavor" if it doesn't come up in play. And the only way it is going to come up in play is if the player is being forced to write down all this menial crap or to sit with the rulebook open in front of them so they can look it up, neither of which is fun and is basically just punishing them for playing a spellcaster.
So if it's going to be relegated to a component pouch and never mentioned, then it should just be removed from the game entirely. If it is going to be invoked, it should either be whatever the player wants to flavor it as on the fly as suitable to the theme of their character's magic and the spell, or limited exclusively to powerful rituals that meaningfully alter reality. Not every single random spell.
Heck, I'd like to see material components become more a tradition of wizard magic.
While I am in favor of material components largely being handwaved (a few gp every visit to town to refill / NOT excessive tracking of silver dust, etc.). I do like those moments when the spellcaster cannot get to his/her pouch, etc.
But,I'd love to see bonus effects to spells if you have really cool, quest-found, or above cost purchased components that you occasionally did track - not bat guano but dire bat guano...etc.
But, that's me.
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I'd like to see all material components be optional, expensive components. Something along the lines of 25-300gp for an additional effect.
Example time:
Cast fireball normally? Xd6 fire damage in an area.
Cast fireball while consuming Y alchemist fires? Xd6 fire damage in an area, and 1 target that fails its save catches on fire, taking 2d6 fire damage for Y rounds.
Cast disintegrate normally? LOTSd6 damage to a target.
Cast disintegrate while consuming a mithral mirror worth 500 gold? If the target hits, it bounces to a secondary target (new attack roll, new damage roll, targeting from the initial target's space). You can consume up to 3 mirrors, but each mirror takes an action to prepare prior to completing the spell.
Cast teleport normally? You and up to X willing targets appear at your chosen destination.
Cast teleport while consuming an hourglass filled with golden sand worth Yx1000 gold? You can cast teleport as a reaction, bringing up to Y willing targets.
Cast teleport while consuming an adamantine shackle worth 1000 gp? The target becomes touch and it can teleport a single unwilling target on a failed save. (crit save negates, save negates but staggers 1 round, crit fail also disables the target for 1 minute after arrival).
Cast teleport while consuming a piece of the target's body that was removed within the last minute? The spell's range changes to unlimited, but on the same plane (per teleport's normal functionality), and the target must save or be teleported as in the adamantine shackle case.
As for the discussion about raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection, I'm of the opinion that having your character die and not getting actions for a while is plenty "punishment" for failure. Having a high cost doesn't make the game more fun. You end up with one of three options:
In my own games, I find there's a good place in the middle for expensive death. If you return to town, you can get raise dead/whatever done for free, and clear away the negative levels and other bad stuff but it takes one or more days for the rituals. It's no fun watching other people play the game for hours while you mess around on your phone. This option is available except in remote wilderness settlements, but often returning to town without completing the current adventure has story penalties such as a villain escaping, or raising an army of undead, or whatever. If the party wishes to deal with death without fleeing to town, that's when they need to pay the big bucks (usually in the form of raise dead scrolls, which also make for desirable treasure).
This form of regaining life actually plays into my preferred material components described above, since you could have normal Raise Dead has a cast time of 8 hours, but with an expensive diamond, the cast time goes down to 2 or 3 actions.
I'd like to see all material components be optional, expensive components. Something along the lines of 25-300gp for an additional effect.
Example time:
Cast fireball normally? Xd6 fire damage in an area.
Cast fireball while consuming Y alchemist fires? Xd6 fire damage in an area, and 1 target that fails its save catches on fire, taking 2d6 fire damage for Y rounds.Cast disintegrate normally? LOTSd6 damage to a target.
Cast disintegrate while consuming a mithral mirror worth 500 gold? If the target hits, it bounces to a secondary target (new attack roll, new damage roll, targeting from the initial target's space). You can consume up to 3 mirrors, but each mirror takes an action to prepare prior to completing the spell.Cast teleport normally? You and up to X willing targets appear at your chosen destination.
Cast teleport while consuming an hourglass filled with golden sand worth Yx1000 gold? You can cast teleport as a reaction, bringing up to Y willing targets.
Cast teleport while consuming an adamantine shackle worth 1000 gp? The target becomes touch and it can teleport a single unwilling target on a failed save. (crit save negates, save negates but staggers 1 round, crit fail also disables the target for 1 minute after arrival).As for the discussion about raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection, I'm of the opinion that having your character die and not getting actions for a while is plenty "punishment" for failure. Having a high cost doesn't make the game more fun. You end up with one of three options:
It's too high for the party to pay, so the player has to make a new character
The cost is payable, but weakens the party and leads to more deaths
The cost is negligible, so why bother having it in the first place? In my own games, I find there's a good place in the middle for expensive death. If you return to town, you can get raise dead/whatever done for free, and clear away the negative levels and other bad stuff but it takes one or more days for the rituals. It's no...
So if time is the only constraint on resurrection, how do you feel about NPCs constantly coming back? Or are they more inclined to stay in the afterlife for some reason? Not trying to be a jerk, genuinely curious how it has worked out in your settings.
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...I'd like to see all material components be optional, expensive components. Something along the lines of 25-300gp for an additional effect.
Example time:
Cast fireball normally? Xd6 fire damage in an area.
Cast fireball while consuming Y alchemist fires? Xd6 fire damage in an area, and 1 target that fails its save catches on fire, taking 2d6 fire damage for Y rounds.Cast disintegrate normally? LOTSd6 damage to a target.
Cast disintegrate while consuming a mithral mirror worth 500 gold? If the target hits, it bounces to a secondary target (new attack roll, new damage roll, targeting from the initial target's space). You can consume up to 3 mirrors, but each mirror takes an action to prepare prior to completing the spell.Cast teleport normally? You and up to X willing targets appear at your chosen destination.
Cast teleport while consuming an hourglass filled with golden sand worth Yx1000 gold? You can cast teleport as a reaction, bringing up to Y willing targets.
Cast teleport while consuming an adamantine shackle worth 1000 gp? The target becomes touch and it can teleport a single unwilling target on a failed save. (crit save negates, save negates but staggers 1 round, crit fail also disables the target for 1 minute after arrival).As for the discussion about raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection, I'm of the opinion that having your character die and not getting actions for a while is plenty "punishment" for failure. Having a high cost doesn't make the game more fun. You end up with one of three options:
It's too high for the party to pay, so the player has to make a new character
The cost is payable, but weakens the party and leads to more deaths
The cost is negligible, so why bother having it in the first place? In my own games, I find there's a good place in the middle for expensive death. If you return to town, you can get raise dead/whatever done for free, and clear away the negative levels and other bad stuff but it
It depends on the campaign I'm running at the time. Often times, the free return to life magic isn't really free, but is the result of a rich patron that foots the bill to keep his heroes out fighting the bad guys. Other times, the magic is free, but is taxing and only a few people can do it, or only available specific large cities, so there's a limit on how many can be brought back within a certain time frame and large quantities of NPC death are often beyond total repair. Sometimes, resurrections really are unlimited, so the campaign can even be built around that (needing to recover the corpses of important people, old heroes, someone's dog, whatever).
The free version of resurrections don't become available to players though, so if they want to bring an NPC back to life, and the NPC controlling the free magic disagrees/isn't available/doesn't want to/is dead, the players are forced to make a choice about expending their resources to make a story decision.
In general though, my players accept that it's a construct so we can all have fun playing the game without forcing someone to sit out during our limited play time. It also fixes the problem of someone that spent 5 hours carefully writing their character's backstory and motivations doesn't have to scrap it just because I rolled a crit with a battleaxe in the first combat of the campaign. If the PC is dead, there's not really a choice between coming back to life or not playing the game.
...
In my own games, I find there's a good place in the middle for expensive death. If you return to town, you can get raise dead/whatever done for free, and clear away the negative
This is far FAR more GM control than simply a prohibitive gold cost
In my own games, I find there's a good place in the middle for expensive death. If you return to town, you can get raise dead/whatever done for free, and clear away the negative
...
This is far FAR more GM control than simply a prohibitive gold cost
In general though, my players accept that it's a construct so we can all have fun playing the game without forcing someone to sit out during our limited play time.
Also, did you miss the part about the gold cost option still existing, there's just also a free option added on?
You are all aware witches exist, right? (How could I forget, duh)As a level 18 ability.
By level 18 anyone who wants to resurrect out their ears has the discretionary budget to do so.
Would a high level, class neutral feat that removes the need for all expensive material components be a compromise we could all agree on?
#letsbefriends
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You are all aware witches exist, right? (How could I forget, duh)As a level 18 ability.
By level 18 anyone who wants to resurrect out their ears has the discretionary budget to do so.
Paladins can do it significantly earlier, if they're so inclined.
Restorer (Druid archetype)
Monk of the Healing Hand (Monk archetype)
Nature Warden (Prestige class)
All Paizo. All Pathfinder 1. Bringing dead to life can cost nothing, point proven.
I hate material components with my whole heart, but if there's anything I hate even more, it's inconsistency.
Eh, while I agree those examples break the convention, characters that high level would be rare, and characters that take those specific archetypes rarer still. A GM could reasonably say those people are so rare they may as well not exist as far as most people are concerned.
Like, it would be neat if you found an isolated collective or tribe that had a Restorer Druid, whose talents kept his tribe alive forever but were never shared outside the tribe. (With the possible one time exception of PCs who happened to die during the adventure that saves said tribe.) But if folks like this were common enough to supplant the cost of spellcasting based Resurrection across the world, it would certainly be a very different world.
You are all aware witches exist, right? (How could I forget, duh)As a level 18 ability.
By level 18 anyone who wants to resurrect out their ears has the discretionary budget to do so.
Would a high level, class neutral feat that removes the need for all expensive material components be a compromise we could all agree on?
#letsbefriends
How about a high level, class neutral feat that drastically reduces the cost?
Healing the Dead:
Prerequisites: Legendary Healer, 200gp per level of the deceased, 1 hour of labor
Effect: a character with the heal skill can- using the power of valuable plants and vegetation meticulously combined and applied over the course of an hour- restore a relatively recently dead body to full health and drag its soul kicking and screaming back from the afterlife. [An unwilling soul can make a Will Save against the Healer's Heal Skill]This ability can only be heal those deceased a maximum of one day per level of the Healer after the recipient has perished.
A character healed in this manner suffers the same penalties as though restored by a Resurrection Spell.
Reduced cost is not the same as free and you know it.
An unwilling soul cannot be returned by any force short of the Gods, unless you're prepared to change another major aspect of the process.
Paladins can do it significantly earlier, if they're so inclined.You are all aware witches exist, right? (How could I forget, duh)As a level 18 ability.
By level 18 anyone who wants to resurrect out their ears has the discretionary budget to do so.
Im going to try not to be salty about this but when i brought that feat up people railed against it as just unbelievably feat heavy, and requiring at least 3 to be useable. On top of which its raise dead, which means you need the body, and missing bits dont come back etc etc.
That said, its probably too good of a feat, but i understand the balancing aspect, its forcing cha primary on a paladin, which makes their role as a martial combatant suffer, and they don't have the spell list to play as a caster. I disagree with the balancing aspect of it but its restricted practically if not by direct rules to a high level, alignment restricted class that all but requires you to commit (10 levels or lots of feats). Even then i kind of think its bad for the game, because as i pointed out when i was espousing it on the pf1 boards, the dynamic of adventures changes rapidly when you can simply raise that dead npc to get information and gratitude from them for a minor inconvenience (1 negative level).