New Power Attack with +1 weapon vs no Power Attack with +1 weapon Math

[Finneous Emberstorm]

Hi,

I don't post much, but I found an interaction with the new power attack and +1 weapons that i think is unintended.

This has nothing to do with old power attack at all.

NOTE: I do not mean this negatively at all.
I really like what I'm seeing and can't wait to see how it all fits together. I just mathed this out for fun and thought it should be mentioned.

It seems to me that if you have a +1 weapon, then power attack is less useful especially if you only have 2 actions to attack with, but sometimes even if you use all 3 to attack.

Going under the following assumptions.

Power attack adds base weapon damage.
+1 weapon adds base weapon damage.
20's always crit.
crits double all damage.
power attack only increases 1st attack in a round.

Assume a weapon does base damage X and extra damage added to the attack form anything else is Y.
so a basic attack does X+Y.
a +1 weapon does 2X+Y,
power attack does 2X+Y,
and power attack with a +1 weapon does 3X+Y.

NOTE: If power attack with a +1 weapon does 4X+Y, then all this math is meaningless. (but it was still fun)

Lets assume 20 rounds of combat with each attack roll getting every number exactly once for ease of math.

I'll list 3 columns, the number needed to hit in the first, the damage with power attack in the second, and the total damage from both single attack actions in the third.

20+, 6X+2Y, 8X+4Y only crits
19, 9X+3Y, 10X+5Y
18, 12X+4Y, 12X+6Y
17, 15X+5Y, 14X+7Y
16, 18X+6Y, 16X+8Y
15, 21X+7Y, 18X+9Y
14, 24X+8Y, 22X+11Y: second attack hits on a 19 here
13, 27X+9Y, 26X+13Y
12, 30X+10Y, 30X+15Y
11, 33X+11Y, 34X+17Y
10, 36X+12Y, 38X+19Y
9, 42X+14Y, 44X+22Y first attack starts critting on a 19 here
8, 48X+16Y, 50X+25Y
7, 54X+18Y, 56X+28Y
6, 60X+20Y, 62X+31Y
5, 66X+22Y, 68X+34Y
4, 72X+24Y, 76X+38Y second attack starts critting on a 19 here
3, 78X+26Y, 84X+42Y
2, 84X+28Y, 92X+46Y

As you can see not using power attack usually is better, with a few possible exceptions around the 15-16 range if X>Y. Possibly 13-17 if X is significantly better than Y.

Now for the 3 action attack routine.
Note I'll be assuming that the two -5 attacks on both sides cancel out and leave them off the chart for easier math. Plus it lets me copy/paste the chart above for the power attack side. :)

20+, 6X+2Y, 8X+4Y only crits
19, 9X+3Y, 10X+5Y
18, 12X+4Y, 12X+6Y
17, 15X+5Y, 14X+7Y
16, 18X+6Y, 16X+8Y
15, 21X+7Y, 18X+9Y
14, 24X+8Y, 20X+10Y
13, 27X+9Y, 22X+11Y
12, 30X+10Y, 24X+12Y
11, 33X+11Y, 26X+13Y
10, 36X+12Y, 28X+14Y
9, 42X+14Y, 34X+17Y first attack starts critting on a 19 here
8, 48X+16Y, 40X+20Y ^ also third attack starts hitting on a 19
7, 54X+18Y, 46X+23Y
6, 60X+20Y, 52X+26Y
5, 66X+22Y, 58X+29Y
4, 72X+24Y, 64X+32Y
3, 78X+26Y, 70X+35Y
2, 84X+28Y, 76X+38Y

So now that we have the chart lets solve each one and see what ratio of X to Y we need for each one for power attack to be good.

20+, 6X+2Y, 8X+4Y
19, 9X+3Y, 10X+5Y
18, 12X+4Y, 12X+6Y
Power attack is only better here if Y is negative (highly unlikely)

17, 15X+5Y, 14X+7Y
-14X-5Y, -14X-5Y
X vs 2Y
X would have to be more than double Y for power attack to be beneficial.

16, 18X+6Y, 16X+8Y
-16X-6Y, -16X-6Y
2X, 2Y
/2, /2
X vs Y
X would have to be greater than Y

15, 21X+7Y, 18X+9Y
3X, 2Y
X vs (2/3)Y
X would have to be more than 2/3 the value of Y for power attack to be beneficial

14, 24X+8Y, 20X+10Y
4X, 2Y
X vs (1/2)Y

13, 27X+9Y, 22X+11Y
5X, 2Y
X vs (2/5)Y

12, 30X+10Y, 24X+12Y
6X, 2Y
X vs (1/3)Y

11, 33X+11Y, 26X+13Y
7X, 2Y
X vs (2/7)Y

10, 36X+12Y, 28X+14Y
8X, 2Y
X vs (1/4)Y

9, 42X+14Y, 34X+17Y
8X, 3Y
X vs (3/8)Y

8, 48X+16Y, 40X+20Y
8X, 4Y
X vs (1/2)Y

7, 54X+18Y, 46X+23Y
8X, 5Y
X vs (5/8)Y

6, 60X+20Y, 52X+26Y
8X, 6Y
X vs (3/4)Y

5, 66X+22Y, 58X+29Y
8X, 7Y
X vs (7/8)Y

4, 72X+24Y 64X+32Y
8X, 8Y
X vs Y

3, 78X+26Y, 70X+35Y
8X, 9Y
X vs (9/8)Y

2, 84X+28Y, 76X+38Y
8X, 10Y
X vs (10/8)Y

So in the cases above it can be more useful to use power attack depending on the ratio of X to Y.
Even if X is only half of Y (as in the cases of [1d12+13], [1d8+9] and [1d4+5]) you gain benefit from power attack if you need from a 9 to a 13 (and suffer no loss on an 8 or 14).
But if X ever drops below 1/4 Y (as in [1d12+27],[1d8+19] and [1d4+11]) power attack will always be a bad choice with a +1 weapon.

I realize I have no idea how much static damage players get so I've no idea what Y could be.

I hope i didn't bore anyone too much and if i made any mistakes let me know.

Again, this is not a complaint or meant negatively in any way. I just saw this and it looked unintended, so i wanted to mention it.

[Megistone]

Very interesting.
I already see people making spreadsheets for each of their weapons, and then guessing the target AC before deciding if they power attack or not! :D

[Lord Khaalis]

Megistone wrote:

Very interesting.

I already see people making spreadsheets for each of their weapons, and then guessing the target AC before deciding if they power attack or not! :D

Yeah, I really hope not. I am hoping the system math is more clear than that. It should be an ability that is obvious when to use or not.

[bookrat]

That was a really unique and nifty way of looking at it. Thanks for that!

Also:

Quote:

Note I'll be assuming that the two -5 attacks on both sides cancel out and leave them off the chart for easier math.

That was rather clever. I love it when people do this.

I love comparison math, and cancelling out the equivalencies is one of the best tools that so many people forget to use. :)

[Zonto]

I believe it's been stated somewhere (these forums have become a tangled web lately) that Power Attack will eventually add more dice, so maybe that will become more useful at higher level? Then again at higher level you're probably getting better +X weapons too, so maybe that just scales the same way.

Interesting post, thanks!