|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
As the title says. With all the discussions and podcasts that you (the devs) have been engaging in, you all express that allowing players to make "any character they want" is an expressed goal of 2e Pathfinder. This is a goal I am 100% behind, and one that I feel is an awesome thing to aspire to. However, to truely achieve this goal, there is a masisve purple dragon in the room that needs to be adressed...and that is the fact that...for all but the charisma-based classes...charisma is THE GO-TO dump stat mechanically...and this is EXTREMELY prohibitive to many character concepts.
The passionate, firey warrior who leads others into battle. The manipulative, cunning dark wizard. The evangelist priest who inspires others to follow his deity with their powerful personality. All these are classic fantasy concepts and tropes, and are things a lot of players like to play...however, with charisma being as it stands now, players are punished for wanting to play characters like these.
How? Well, lets be frank. While yes, there are some tables that play "intrigue" style games, the VAST majority of groups will invedibly face some combat. This game has more combat rules than anything else, and due to how most adventurers for it tends to be structured, the vast majority of games tend to feature at least some combat. As a result, it becomes important for every character to be able to hold their own in combat situations, and the sad fact is that characters like the ones I mentioned above, who want to invest in charisma a little bit despite it not being an ability score their class uses normally, are harshly punished mechanically for doing so when it comes to holding their own in combat.
While one could say "but it has massive RP benefits"....the sad, cold truth is that for most groups and in most adventure paths, the combat deficiencies that investing in Charisma over Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence or Wisdom creates for non-Cha classes are far worse than any RP benefits the skill may provide.
If you dump strength, you will be carry less loot and you can kiss using any melee weapon goodbye. If you dump dex, you will be hit more often and have lower reflex saves, and therefore die faster. If you dump con, you will have less HP and lower fort saves, and therefore die faster. If you dump int, you will have less skill points, and therefore less things your character can do. If you dump Wisdom you will have lower will saves and therefore die faster. If you dump cha you will not be good at a few skills that you don't even have to take....meaning that if you dump cha, you literally don't suffer at all...or at least suffer in a way thats relevant the typical heroic adventure games that most tables tend to play.
Thus, when you look at things at this perspective, the freedom to make charismatic wizards, fighters, druids, clerics etc.. is one that is stripped from most players, as in any game where combat will be at least a semi-regular occurrence, they are mechanically penalized for investing in charisma over any other stat.
Thus, if you (the devs) truly want to give is the freedom to make the characters we want to play, you must rectify this issue by fixing charisma, and making it so a wizard who, say, wants to invest in charisma over wisdom will not be punished by the game's mechanics for doing so.
In short, to TRULY allow freedom of character creation, Charisma needs to be thrown a serious bone as a stat, and made so it can "put in work" for all characters in combat-focused adventurers and games. Despite the RP benefits, in PF Charisma is pretty much ALWAYS the optimal stat for classes that don't use it for anything to dump...and if you want true freedom in character creation, there should not be one stat is significantly "worse" to invest in than every other stat for characters that don't make use of it directly via their class.
I love what your trying to do with 2e, but if you truly want to do the right thing, and truly want to allow players the maximum freedom to play what they want to play, you will need to see the game for how it is actually played. You will need to realize that most players and most games require some degree of combat effectiveness from their PCs, and that if you have one stat that is more easily dumped than every other stat in the game from a combat effectiveness standpoint, that at most tables and in most games, players who choose to have their characters invest in that stat (as oppose to, say, wisdom) while being a member of class with no direct use of it are mechanically punished for playing what they want to play. This is counter to the goal of allowing players to play what they want to play, and something I very passionately feel should be rectified in PF 2e.
I hope that if you(any devs) read this, that you will at least do so with an open mind and consider what I am saying.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd definitely like to see more reward for investing in charisma. It's often a battle for me when genning new PCs, especially casters. It is also very easy to circumvent Charisma in the current system for social benefit.
I would like to point out though, that I don't think threads in this need the title to be directed to the devs...
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Charisma is force of personality. Make it the go-to stat for will. It's really that simple.
This is something everyone can agree with.
100% Agreed!
I like the idea of saves vs charms, fear, and compulsions being Cha saving throws instead of Wis saving throws.
I like the idea of saves vs charms, fear, and compulsions being Cha saving throws instead of Wis saving throws.
I agree with this notion; charisma should protect against compulsion and fear effects while wisdom protects against illusions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Intelligence might protect against Illusions. Wisdom might protect vs everything else that goes vs will (confusion, will saves vs non-mind affecting spells like Glitterdust, etc).
Agreed. I'm making a Phantom Thief Rogue, and Cha would be the dump stat to boost Will and Dex. But the type of character I have in mind, while being very sneaky, is also very charming. Like Kaito Kid from Case Closed. Cha is kinda needed for that. With a 20 point buy, putting the human +2 in Dex, I had to go with 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wis, 12 Cha. If I dumped Cha down to 7, I would be able to boost Int and Will to 15 each. That would be better mechanically, but not so great flavor-wise.
I don't care for the idea of powering up charasma. I'd rather make it cheaper to buy. Then use it only for social interactions, not spell casting. Sorcerers can use wisdom as their casting stat. (Force of will.)
I do agree with the OP, that charisma is a problem; just offering an alternate way of dealing with it.
Totally agree in making Charisma grant some benefit that all characters who invest on it will benefit, but making a new save based on charisma seems to just complicate thing with too much benefit. Giving social interactions a more important role, influencing economic transactions, or making leadership a core assumption.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
making a new save based on charisma seems to just complicate thing with too much benefit.
The idea is to have a save associated with every ability score, like 5E. As I posted in another thread:
You get knocked off a wall, and need to catch onto the ledge to avoid plummeting? Make a Str saving throw.
Enemy casts a spell and you need to dodge it? Make a Dex saving throw.
You get poisoned? Make a Con saving throw.
You aren't sure whether something is an illusion or not? Make an Int saving throw.
Someone is trying to distract you from your task? Make a Wis saving throw.
You need to resist a mental compulsion? Make a Cha saving throw.
This sounds like uncapped stats and unbounded accuracy limits character concepts. I dont think adjusting how a single attribute will help alleviate this problem.
I don't really want Charisma to be useful in every fight or dungeon. I want more robust mechanics for interacting with people (and similar) in social situations.
I like the idea of saves vs charms, fear, and compulsions being Cha saving throws instead of Wis saving throws.I agree with this notion; charisma should protect against compulsion and fear effects while wisdom protects against illusions.
Have to admit, I like this idea a lot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't really want Charisma to be useful in every fight or dungeon. I want more robust mechanics for interacting with people (and similar) in social situations.
I'm feeling like I'm in this boat, too. It doesn't need a combat use per se...just more use in general. This also has an added benefit of putting some more emphasis on other parts of the game besides combat. (As much as I love combat, I like the other stuff too, and want it to be more interesting)
Throwing out a prediction here, though: Hero Points will be CHA based.
Complete agreed. Making it the WIS save stat would be good, as has been pointed out above. However, what to do with Wisdom, then?
I think Intelligence might protect against Illusions. Wisdom might protect vs everything else that goes vs will (confusion, will saves vs non-mind affecting spells like Glitterdust, etc).
I think their was rules in 1st edition AD&D for when you had exceptionally high stats (20+) that it worked that way. I believe the rules were in Deities and demigods and one other book as well.
Not a bad idea. maybe theirs some way to play with that a bit to stream line it without having to break willpower in 2 different saves.
There is a build which has been gaining traction over the years where its basically charisma to everything if you know where to look for it.
to hit, damage, armor class, max dex, saving throws, negative hit points, positive hit points (5 levels only), int skills, cha skills.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a build which has been gaining traction over the years where its basically charisma to everything if you know where to look for it.
to hit, damage, armor class, max dex, saving throws, negative hit points, positive hit points (5 levels only), int skills, cha skills.
Kind of like the 3.5 lord of the dance eh?
I don't really want Charisma to be useful in every fight or dungeon. I want more robust mechanics for interacting with people (and similar) in social situations.
That would not change it's status as default dump stat for everyone but the classes with a mechanic tied to it.
Besides the mechanic benefits of making all stats equally important (which is that making choices in ability spenditure is actually meaningful), there is the fact that, by the book, Charisma IS force of personality. It's not appeareance, or manners, or eloquence. It's just pure force of personality, which is why Liches gain bonuses to it.
Kind of like the 3.5 lord of the dance eh?There is a build which has been gaining traction over the years where its basically charisma to everything if you know where to look for it.
to hit, damage, armor class, max dex, saving throws, negative hit points, positive hit points (5 levels only), int skills, cha skills.
Hmm, not exactly familiar with that build.
For pathfinder though, try a: Starknife-wielding confident kobold oracle who is a noble scion and became an agent of the grave. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kind of like the 3.5 lord of the dance eh?There is a build which has been gaining traction over the years where its basically charisma to everything if you know where to look for it.
to hit, damage, armor class, max dex, saving throws, negative hit points, positive hit points (5 levels only), int skills, cha skills.
Hmm, not exactly familiar with that build.
For pathfinder though, try a: Starknife-wielding confident kobold oracle who is a noble scion and became an agent of the grave. :)
3.5 you basically used the performance dance skill to replace all your rolls whenever possible. I don't remember the exact way but it sounds very similar to that^^^
There is a build which has been gaining traction over the years where its basically charisma to everything if you know where to look for it.
to hit, damage, armor class, max dex, saving throws, negative hit points, positive hit points (5 levels only), int skills, cha skills.
Yes. And there is a class, sorcerer, which is a tier 1 class and has charisma as main stat.
The point is not "charisma is not useful to anyone". The point is "if charisma is not a main stat for you because of your class, it's dumped without meaningful consequences". IF you dump Wisdom, your Will suffer. If you dump Int, you have less skill points. If you dump Dex, your AC sucks and your intitiative is pathetic. If you dump Con, you die. Strength, like CHA, can be dumped in plenty of classes (anyone who does not melee), and probably needs a pasive bonus of some kind.
There's nothing wrong with a dumped stat. It can help to roleplay lots of characters. Also, making meaningful choices IS fun, and important. But the key word, is meaningful. Chosing between 2 extra points of DEX or 2 extra points of CON, is meaningful. Do I want a bit more AC, Intiative and REF? Or a bit more HP and Fort? That's meaningful. That's a choice. Dumping Cha is not meaningful, it's free.
Complete agreed. Making it the WIS save stat would be good, as has been pointed out above. However, what to do with Wisdom, then?
With perception being hinted as the "default" initiative, and including Wisdom in Will Saves which are not Charms, Compulsions, etc, it should still have a safe spot.
Things like "negative Energy Channeling" currently give you a Will save, but it's not directly tied to "force of personality". That could be a will save. Some spells, like Glitterdust, give you a Will save, and they are not even Mind Affecting. That can be Wisdom (you close your eyes by instinct?). Things that are based on insight, perception, instincts, can still be wisdom. Think of spells like Maze (which currently is no save, but that might change, or similar spells exist).
Yes. And there is a class, sorcerer, which is a tier 1 class and has charisma as main stat.There is a build which has been gaining traction over the years where its basically charisma to everything if you know where to look for it.
to hit, damage, armor class, max dex, saving throws, negative hit points, positive hit points (5 levels only), int skills, cha skills.
And the build that gained traction for "charisma for everything" is an oracle with access to 9th level casting.
The point is not "charisma is not useful to anyone". The point is "if charisma is not a main stat for you because of your class, it's dumped without meaningful consequences".
Any attribute can be made into a dump stat, but its not the way of cookie cutter builds to do so.
IF you dump Wisdom, your Will suffer.
Ways around it.
If you dump Int, you have less skill points.
Doesn't stop every barbarian from turning it into a dump stat.
If you dump Dex, your AC sucks and your intitiative is pathetic.
Noble Scion and Oracle say hi.
If you dump Con, you die.
Not exactly. There are ways around this.
Strength, like CHA, can be dumped in plenty of classes (anyone who does not melee), and probably needs a passive bonus of some kind.
Carry Capacity, Drag, Push, Lift Overhead.
There's nothing wrong with a dumped stat. It can help to roleplay lots of characters. Also, making meaningful choices IS fun, and important. But the key word, is meaningful.
True.
Chosing between 2 extra points of DEX or 2 extra points of CON, is meaningful. Do I want a bit more AC, Intiative and REF? Or a bit more HP and Fort? That's meaningful. That's a choice. Dumping Cha is not meaningful, it's free.
Your just creating a determent for yourself. If you want to live with 1-7 in an attribute, you can also live with things that drain or damage that attribute. Its not an ill-advised thing, but it is putting a chink in your armor.
There's a reddit thread going around, with people claiming they were a part of the charity playtest at garycon. Its got a bunch of neat info, but a big one I found in the comments is that the number of magic items you can equip are limited but a pool of points, which at level 1 appears to be 1+cha. The know direction interview already hinted at the number of equip-able magic items being limited so this sounds pretty plausible, and it would absolutely keep a lot of people from dumping charisma... here's hoping the base number scales with level though.
There's a reddit thread going around, with people claiming they were a part of the charity playtest at garycon. Its got a bunch of neat info, but a big one I found in the comments is that the number of magic items you can equip are limited but a pool of points, which at level 1 appears to be 1+cha. The know direction interview already hinted at the number of equip-able magic items being limited so this sounds pretty plausible, and it would absolutely keep a lot of people from dumping charisma... here's hoping the base number scales with level though.
That sounds really interesting. thanks for info
tying Charisma to magic items was also a posibility (Use Magic Item is Cha based after all). I didn't think Paizo was brave enough to try something like that, but kudos for them. Let's see if it survives the playtest and hordes of players wanting to dump Charisma and having a christmas tree.
There's a reddit thread going around, with people claiming they were a part of the charity playtest at garycon. Its got a bunch of neat info, but a big one I found in the comments is that the number of magic items you can equip are limited but a pool of points, which at level 1 appears to be 1+cha. The know direction interview already hinted at the number of equip-able magic items being limited so this sounds pretty plausible, and it would absolutely keep a lot of people from dumping charisma... here's hoping the base number scales with level though.
That is an interesting approach!
Let’s hope the reporting is accurate; I’d love to try out something like that in play.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ooh... charisma for magic items is certainly interesting. In PF1, I’m extremely fond of leaving wisdom low and getting a trait for charisma to some will saves. If wisdom now covers initiative most of the time, and boosting will saves has an even greater effect (based on crit fail rules), it will hurt a lot more to have a low-wis character.
Ultimately, though, what I want is unreasonable for the new edition. The game will be better for not having charisma to everything, and it isn’t fair to claim that just my thing would be balanced and proper.
CHA+1 for how many magic items you can equip? Sounds like Cyberpunk, except instead of removing parts of your humanity so you can have more, your injecting yourself with more personality.
Edit: Maybe they should consider increasing that minimum to something like "3+CHA".
CHA+1 for how many magic items you can equip? Sounds like Cyberpunk, except instead of removing parts of your humanity so you can have more, your injecting yourself with more personality.
Edit: Maybe they should consider increasing that minimum to something like "3+CHA".
Honesty I think for level 1, 1+CHA should be fine :P, how are people getting so many magic items at such low level anyway.
It probably goes up with lvls even without CHA, otherwise other builds would suffer quite a bit also.
There's a reddit thread going around, with people claiming they were a part of the charity playtest at garycon. Its got a bunch of neat info, but a big one I found in the comments is that the number of magic items you can equip are limited but a pool of points, which at level 1 appears to be 1+cha. The know direction interview already hinted at the number of equip-able magic items being limited so this sounds pretty plausible, and it would absolutely keep a lot of people from dumping charisma... here's hoping the base number scales with level though.
I didn’t read that as equip, I think he said it’s a limit per day on use activated items like wands. So you can’t do CLW spam anymore.
I'd suppose it's somehting like half your level+cha, or anything like that.
Just checked, it’s a daily pool for using activated items like wands. His was 1+ Cha, but he was playing a level one character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The biggest problem with Charisma that I see is that, as the sole ability score employed for most social roles, it incentivizes one player to be the "party face," which is just about the least fun way to handle most social encounters. Of course, many tables default to just roleplaying things out with little input from the dice as well, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but does lead to the impression that Charisma is a "dump stat." (Though as pointed out in this thread, there are plenty of extra-social uses for it.)
could also just divide its effects up between wisdom and intelligence and just remove charisma as a stat
And combine STR and CON into one stat. 4 Stats, 4 Saves.
I'm into it.
Personally, I don't mind "dump stats." The fact that one score, above all others, is the usual go-to for a dump stat is more of an issue.
Yeah, that too - I usually feel like I have a stronger lock on a character's personality, and some mechanical reflection of it, when at least one of their mental scores is below 10.
could also just divide its effects up between wisdom and intelligence and just remove charisma as a statAnd combine STR and CON into one stat. 4 Stats, 4 Saves.
I'm into it.
4e did REF = max(INT,DEX), WIL = max(WIS,CHA), FORT = max(STR,CON), which I think works pretty well.
Personally, I don't mind "dump stats." The fact that one score, above all others, is the usual go-to for a dump stat is more of an issue.Yeah, that too - I usually feel like I have a stronger lock on a character's personality, and some mechanical reflection of it, when at least one of their mental scores is below 10.
4e did REF = max(INT,DEX), WIL = max(WIS,CHA), FORT = max(STR,CON), which I think works pretty well.could also just divide its effects up between wisdom and intelligence and just remove charisma as a statAnd combine STR and CON into one stat. 4 Stats, 4 Saves.
I'm into it.
I'm not particularly a fan of the choice. I feel like it encourages dumping. I would rather see 4 strong stats (all on the level of what DEX is currently) that everyone needs a little of. Make dumping painful.