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that's just it, it is just a class, a class that anyone should be able to play however they want, don't want them to be just a class go read a book about paladins that have nothing to do with a game where one plays a character who takes levels in a class
To you it is "just a class".
To many, it isnt. The same way a cleric isnt "just a class" either and so on, while true to a much lesser degree.
A fighter or rogue are just a class, i will agree here, they quite literally dont have anything to make them especial or relevant lore wise, but a paladin does.
Ingame what a paladin is, what a paladin does, how a paladin works... these things could and should be know, well know. The world should directly react to a paladin, entire situations could change by the simple presence of someone of this class.
Could the same be said about certain other classes who also have a lore, sure, a cleric of a certain god could directly influence certain situations for pure RP reasons and so on.
Classes do matter, they arent just a bunch of rules for you to pick on, or atleast they certanly arent on my table, a LG fighter is NOT a paladin, same way it isnt a cleric or a warpriest.
Heh honestly what people seem to want here is to literally erradicate classes as a whole, afterall what is the point of them at all? All that matters are the stats, any and all lore that comes with them is clearly irrelevant for some.
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https://youtu.be/npjOSLCR2hE
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All these munchkin accusations seem a bit silly to me. A true munchkin isn't going to care which alignment they play, and unless your GM is actively targetting you (in which case get a better GM), holding to the paladin's code isn't terribly difficult.
The only reason to want to get away from alignment restrictions and codes of conduct is that you do care about more than the sweet sweet powers and therefore don't want your own character ideas stifled by cherrypicked decades old ideas about what a class should be. It does, however, make complete sense to argue against anyone else being able to play their paladin concept if you just want to restrict the powers to your own pet character concept.
As far as sorcerers dipping Paladin goes, man if they want to trade two spellcasting levels for Paladin saves, by all means.
If alignment is the only balance against divine grace, something is wrong. And I actually kind of agree with that; I find divine grace mildly bothersome and I'd rather see it just gone.
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Yeah I'd be completely cool with Divine Grace going away. Mind, I'm also the sort of deviant that feels the d10 HD and full bab also had nothing to do with Paladins.
I'd also love to see some archetypes that gave other classes detect evil, maybe a weaker smite and the code of conduct.
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name the ways to get divine grace without being a paladin or antimatter then.
There's also the swashbuckler's Charmed Life ability. It's not exactly the same, because you have limited uses per day (3x/day at level 2), but that will probably cover most situations at the table that might arise and doesn't shornhoe you into an alignment.
Though the same reasons why no one in his right mind would waste 2 levels just to get that still apply.
The simple truth is: No one chooses to play a Paladin just because of Divine Grace. At least not if they know what they are doing. And no matter what, if I want to play an non-LG-Paladin, I'll certainly play it longer than 2 levels, so to say that I just want to dip in the class for a level 2 ability is ridiculous.
edit: and just to repeat: I do not really care about if my non-LG-paladin is actually called a Paladin. What I do care about is that my character fills the same niche that the Paladin does and that they can stand toe-to-toe with the Paladin as far as dedication, purity of heart and following a codex goes without someone saying: yeah but you're still not a Paladin.-
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And the thing in 5e isn’t a paladin.
Unless they have 11 buddies and work for Charlemagne the Pathfinder "Paladin" is technically not a Paladin.
Because the calling isn't about gods. It's a calling to be a Paladin. It has nothing to do with what a deity wants.
Official Paizo source, please.
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The idea that Saerenrae herself cannot be a paladin is laughable.
I mean...
/thread?
pretty much every book in pathfinder disagrees with that, anything labelled as a class is just that a class you play in a game, nothing more.that's just it, it is just a class, a class that anyone should be able to play however they want, don't want them to be just a class go read a book about paladins that have nothing to do with a game where one plays a character who takes levels in a classTo you it is "just a class".
To many, it isnt. The same way a cleric isnt "just a class" either and so on, while true to a much lesser degree.
A fighter or rogue are just a class, i will agree here, they quite literally dont have anything to make them especial or relevant lore wise, but a paladin does.
Ingame what a paladin is, what a paladin does, how a paladin works... these things could and should be know, well know. The world should directly react to a paladin, entire situations could change by the simple presence of someone of this class.
Could the same be said about certain other classes who also have a lore, sure, a cleric of a certain god could directly influence certain situations for pure RP reasons and so on.
Classes do matter, they arent just a bunch of rules for you to pick on, or atleast they certanly arent on my table, a LG fighter is NOT a paladin, same way it isnt a cleric or a warpriest.
Heh honestly what people seem to want here is to literally erradicate classes as a whole, afterall what is the point of them at all? All that matters are the stats, any and all lore that comes with them is clearly irrelevant for some.
Either they are now selling you a lore free version of the game since you dont care about it or you are just plain jumping over the text.
Paladin:
"Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
Actually even each ARCHETYPE has atleast a few lines explaining a bit of their lore. Hell even feats and so on do often enough.
And note, this is just taking in account what is written diectly on the class, not other sources and so on. Just because you decided to turn a blind eye mate, doesnt mean the lore isnt there.
i Think that a Mandatory LEGAL but not necessary good "paladin" should be the best solution. Rly, a paladin it's a godchosen warrior that follow a morale code. Ok perfect. I can be LG, LN o LE for that matter and have a moral or Conduct code( damn, the Hellknights have it) and be a chosen warrior the same.
Think of it. An Abbadar Paladin, An Asmodean Paladin( antipaladin should be LE in first place an not CE IMHO) that will be really cool, and will add a bunch of deepness in your story!
i can understand the reason behind the NOT Caothic paladins, but Legal should be mandatory.
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Ingame what a paladin is, what a paladin does, how a paladin works... these things could and should be know, well know. The world should directly react to a paladin, entire situations could change by the simple presence of someone of this class.
To be honest, I'd never ever allow a player to play a Paladin this way. Would mean way too much narrative power compared to the other players (and if at all, the only player at the table with that much narrative power should be the GM.
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i can understand the reason behind the NOT Caothic paladins, but Legal should be mandatory.
Why? Chaotic can and do have codes
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*pokes head back in*
PuppyT, if a paladin in your game encounters folks by combat are they required to pull their punches and keep their opponents from dying?
...are they required to announce they're about to ambush a superior force that needs to be dealt with?
...are they required to turn over all items found after combat?
If so, then you may be one of the GMs that is at the root of the concern.
If not, then the above are some small examples of WHY the 'tied only to Best Good EVAH' DOES NOT WORK for Paladins.
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*pokes head back in*
PuppyT, if a paladin in your game encounters folks by combat are they required to pull their punches and keep their opponents from dying?
...are they required to announce they're about to ambush a superior force that needs to be dealt with?
...are they required to turn over all items found after combat?
If so, then you may be one of the GMs that is at the root of the concern.
If not, then the above are some small examples of WHY the 'tied only to Best Good EVAH' DOES NOT WORK for Paladins.
They don't have to do anything that makes them less likely to win the combat, and would only get in trouble for coup de gracing enemies if they followed a god who is generally merciful and definitely could have brought them to the guardhouse instead without sacrificing or risking anything of importance.
Lol of course not.
Lol wtf? I mean, if the items are stolen from a specific NPC and it would be very easy to return them to their owners I would want them to do that, but if it's just some dragon's hoard and f~## knows where it's from, or if it belonged to the villain they just killed, of course they can keep it.
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PuppyT: I've seen GMs that have tried to enforce the 'You must take prisoners on the field of battle and treat them in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and anything less is grounds for failure/falling'.
"But... we're five hundred miles away from anywhere..."
"Too bad, you're a paladin, suck it up."
I've heard of GMs that have tried to make a paladin fall because they were using sneak attacks, superior tactics (ambush against vastly greater numbers), and if they don't make a full and complete accounting of the loot they find and turn it over in toto to the King's accountant... you guessed it, they fall.
As a result, my faith in the ability of GMs and/or players to handle something as awesome as the responsibility of Lawful Good plus agency-depriving Code of Conduct is... exceptionally lacking.
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A Paladin is a champion of Good. They hold themselves to a code of conduct to better themselves and lead by example; adhering to a code like that is something a Lawful character would do. Therefore, only Lawful Good characters would want to become Paladins. A Paladin code is not a pact you sign for power; it's a standard they hold themselves to because that is what they believe they should be.
A Chaotic character would never willingly force themself into something like that. If you think that they would, you clearly don't understand what Chaotic means: it's the manner in which the character thinks.Being Good in the first place requires a person to commit themselves to a higher standard of behavior. Is Chaotic Good an impossible alignment to hold?
Furthermore, Cavaliers have Orders with codes of conduct, and are not required to be Lawful.
I almost made this exact post.
Ingame what a paladin is, what a paladin does, how a paladin works... these things could and should be know, well know. The world should directly react to a paladin, entire situations could change by the simple presence of someone of this class.To be honest, I'd never ever allow a player to play a Paladin this way. Would mean way too much narrative power compared to the other players (and if at all, the only player at the table with that much narrative power should be the GM.
I would and i did myself in others tables, quite sure you did too, so i imagine you simply took what i said to an extreme.
Easy fast examples of players altering situations for simply being there exist and are plenty, like a cleric when involved with his/her faith, a wizard in a mage school or a fighter who is know among the guards and so on, but these are not the same as playing a paladin, that simple.
Ultimately the world should react to all characters, every player should have a world that reacts to them being something or ahving done something, being a PALADIN brings a reaction that you can only get by playing a paladin, it is unique and based on the lore of this class in the game.
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PuppyT: I've seen GMs that have tried to enforce the 'You must take prisoners on the field of battle and treat them in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and anything less is grounds for failure/falling'.
"But... we're five hundred miles away from anywhere..."
"Too bad, you're a paladin, suck it up."
I've heard of GMs that have tried to make a paladin fall because they were using sneak attacks, superior tactics (ambush against vastly greater numbers), and if they don't make a full and complete accounting of the loot they find and turn it over in toto to the King's accountant... you guessed it, they fall.
As a result, my faith in the ability of GMs and/or players to handle something as awesome as the responsibility of Lawful Good plus agency-depriving Code of Conduct is... exceptionally lacking.
I have the opposite lack of faith. In my experience, players default to opting out of role-playing altogether and you have to work hard to force it out of them (even when they openly enjoy it whenever you manage to do so). People will default toward the least restrictive code they can as a result. It's sort of like picking the least inconveniencing oracle curse.