Mouser ability Vs Arcanist ability and bad wording like usual

[Evilserran]

Ok, so this discussion came up a few weeks ago, at the time it was hyptohetical. Both sides thought they were right, and the best they could come up with is to let a die decide. It may become more relevant in the future however, so if there is any citations that could help pinpoint that would be great.

The question comes into play when a swashbuckling MOUSER uses it's ability Undefoot assault, while in the arcanist location, specifically the following lines

The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe’s space and leave the foe’s space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.

But the arcanist can use dimensional slide which has this for following wording

The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal.

The arcanist ability specifically states it does not provoke attacks of opportunity for the teleporting portion, so if the first square is exited via teleport it's not actually 'leaving' that square... or is it? This could also be relevant as the player with the mouser levels, coming across other forms of teleportations that may or may not provoke.

[Rub-Eta]

This is a question of what rule is the most specific and which one is the most general.
I'm quite convinced that Underfoot Assault is the most general and that anything that allows one to avoid AoO's trumps it.

[blahpers]

The underfoot assault text is intended to make clear that the creature provokes the mouser when moving out of the mouser's square the same way that a creature would normally provoke when moving out of a threatened square. Why they bothered is beyond me--you already threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, and during underfoot assault you can make a melee attack into your opponent's square.

Going by that, I would not expect a dimensional slide to provoke an attack of opportunity in the situation since it wouldn't provoke in the analagous "I'm standing in weapon range of a regular combatant" situation. Underfoot assault doesn't grant super-AoO skills; it grants the ability to mess up your opponent by occupying its space.

[Zarius]

Precisely what Blahpers said.

Also, Blahpers, this would be GREAT for A Tiny character. I would LOVE to toss a level of this on my main after I give him the ability to turn into a fox. Shrink, Under Foot Assault.

[Evilserran]

That is kind of what I was thinking, but I was outvoted when discussing. I sent this link to the other two in my local PFS chapter as well, so they can weigh in if they want.

[Thedmstrikes]

I have made use of this ability ad nauseum. The achilles heal is not being able to move, such as when grappled, otherwise it is a get out of melee free card (at least until the opponent moves and they get back within range). If the text of the mouser had specified such as "when using a move action" or some such, then it would be more relevant.

[Diego Rossi]

Thedmstrikes wrote:

I have made use of this ability ad nauseum. The achilles heal is not being able to move, such as when grappled, otherwise it is a get out of melee free card (at least until the opponent moves and they get back within range). If the text of the mouser had specified such as "when using a move action" or some such, then it would be more relevant.

I don't see anything in the archetype saying that you can't be attacked, and the rules about combat don't prohibit attacking someone in you own square.

[Pizza Lord]

The dimensional slide would not provoke the Underfoot Assault. It is not a normal move.

blahpers wrote:

The underfoot assault text is intended to make clear that the creature provokes the mouser when moving out of the mouser's square the same way that a creature would normally provoke when moving out of a threatened square. Why they bothered is beyond me--you already threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, and during underfoot assault you can make a melee attack into your opponent's square.

I think the wording is there because it would also point out that even if the larger creature is 5-foot stepping off the mouser (possibly to avoid AoOs from others near it), that they still provoke from the mouser, whereas the wording of 5-foot step preventing AoOs from movement might cause confusion or variation. Also, it would prevent situations where the mouser uses their ability after the target attacks and when they step into their space, the larger creature just 5-foot steps away and basically negates the deed (without at least granting an AoO to the mouser).

[Zarius]

Pizza, a five-foot step may be a non-action, but you can't do anything but Immediate actions unless it's your turn... You can't just five-foot away from someone because they're fondling your junk.

BUT I actually reread the Dimensional Slide rules...

Dimensional Slide wrote:

The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal.

I hate to change my stance, but I'm with your players here. The Slide is considered standard movement, it's just... Improved. You circumvent the intervening space completely, but you still affect the square your IN and the square you arrive in. Underfoot Assault goes off.

[Claxon]

Move action doesn't equal movement.

You could use dimensional slide while retrieving a stored item (move action), by the rules.

[Zarius]

"This counts as 5 feet of movement." Not "a five foot step", but "five feet of movement."

[Zarius]

And you can't move five feet as part of pulling out a potion.

[Evilserran]

Yes it would require actually moving as a minimum of 5 feet as a move action in order to teleport. The arguement is that if the first 5 feet is the teleport, they aren't actually crossing any grid lines to move, and their thing specifically says you cant attack them while they do that part... that's where the issue lies.

[Zarius]

Five feet of movement means changing grid squares. That's LITERALLY the point of a square being five feet of movement. That's just stupidity.

[Tusk the Half-Orc]

I agree with Pizza Lord - the arcanist ability “counts as five feet of movement” so that you can only move 25’ more during the rest of your move action (or whatever your speed minus 5 is). It doesn’t mean you have to walk for a bit first, or after. I agree - no AoO against the arcanist.

BUT I also disagree with Pizza Lord that the language about attacks of opportunity in the description of the Underfoot Assault deed means that the larger creature will suffer an AoO for taking a 5-foot step. I read it as giving the mouser an AoO if they would get one as if from a threatening/adjacent square, but that the rule about 5-foot-steps not provoking would still apply, and the mouser would need the Step Up feat to keep up with the larger creature. “Disagree” is probably the wrong word; I read it differently than Pizza Lord seems to, but my mouser (who also uses the Belkar avatar) would be completely delighted to be wrong.

[Pizza Lord]

Zarius wrote:

Pizza, a five-foot step may be a non-action, but you can't do anything but Immediate actions unless it's your turn... You can't just five-foot away from someone because they're fondling your junk.

Underfoot Assault triggers when the larger creature misses you with a melee attack, which usually indicates that it is their turn (yes, it could also happen if you provoke an attack from them, in which case you would be correct). In most cases, it will still be the target's turn after the mouser completes the Underfoot Assault, and allowing them to freely 5-foot step away (obviously if they haven't already moved this round). Without the wording as it is, there would be almost no benefit to the deed in that case (other than some repositioning).

[Claxon]

Zarius wrote:

And you can't move five feet as part of pulling out a potion.

Just because it counts as 5ft of movement doesn't mean you need to use a move action to do it.

I'm sorry, it's simply not what is written in the rules.

The rules don't say "you must move 5ft to teleport" it says "if you teleport it counts as 5ft of movement".

They should have written "you can use a move action to move". The way it's currently written doesn't actually require you to move from the square. It only says if you do, it counts as 5ft of movement against your total ability to move.

[Zarius]

First, Pizza: If they miss you to provoke your Underfoot Assault, they probably aren't moving that round (unless they were already in melee and are trying to 5-foot away). It occurs on THEIR next round, more than likely.

Second, Pizza: The ability in question disagrees with your assessment.

Dimensional Slide wrote:

The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal.

I would LOVE to know, precisely, how you can STEP anywhere without moving, to begin with, and how you can use movement in a move action that isn't for moving. You don't GET an allotment of movement from grabbing a potion, so you don't have movement to USE from that. You HAVE to use a Move Action to USE the slide at all, so you CAN'T use a five-foot to get out. And, even if you COULD, the ability still clearly says you're stepping out, so the five-foot move action that normally doesn't provoke STILL would.

[Pizza Lord]

Zarius wrote:

First, Pizza: If they miss you to provoke your Underfoot Assault, they probably aren't moving that round (unless they were already in melee and are trying to 5-foot away). It occurs on THEIR next round. ...

Zarius. I realize your confusion when you quoted dimensional slide. My comments were in response to blapher's statement about the wording for movement even being necessary.

As for them not planning to move, when your target suddenly slips into your space you might realize you're in trouble and decide to use that 5 foot step. With the wording of Underfoot Assault calling put that you provoke for moving off the mouser, this at least gives the deed a benefit in this situation. It prevents situations where someone assumes the AoO is just for moving as normal (which 5 foot step usually avoids).

[blahpers]

Ugh. It's "move action" vs. "move action" time.

Given that the snippet is

Quote:

This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement.

I'm inclined to assume they meant the action called "move" in this instance for two reasons:

1. The text says "move action or withdraw action". Keeping with the principle of parallelism, I would err on the side of the choice that has the same level of granularity or the higher similarity with the non-ambiguous term. In both cases, that's the action called "move".

2. The only reason to "count as 5 feet of movement" that I can think of is to shave off the amount of movement you have left to move during that action--for example, if you've already moved your full movement for that move action, you can't slide at the end without initiating another action because you don't have 5 feet to expend. Drinking a potion doesn't give you any movement to expend, so it wouldn't work even if they did mean "any move action".

...Really wishing they'd called these "short" and "medium" actions instead of "move" and "standard". I can see how this might be part of the appeal of New 'n' Pathy!.

[Zarius]

Short (swift), Medium (Move), Long (Standard), and Full-Round, and free... You have six seconds. A short takes 1, a medium takes two, a Long takes three. Free takes none, but are reasonably limited by the GM - talking is a free action, but if you try to deliver a full twenty-paragraph speech, your GM can reasonably take some or all of the rest of your turn. Pick any combination that is six seconds or less.

[Zarius]

And, Pizza, fair enough point there.

[Evilserran]

so.... i still see a few answers in either direction, and some so conviluted im not sure what they are actually trying to say. Yes or no? Would the arcanist provoke from the mouser by dimension sliding in the first square to out of its reach?

[blahpers]

No.

[Pizza Lord]

No, as well.

Rather than making the thread into a simple poll, I will add that while the arcanist's dimension slide doesn't just teleport them like a dimension door or such (it opens a crack in space/time that they do step into). The crack is pretty much within their space and square and that step which moves them into the crack (despite costing 5 feet of movement) is not actually moving off the mouser, even though the end result of stepping into the crack will transport them elsewhere.

In other words, think of a larger target taking a step, but not necessarily off the mouser (say, moving in a way that would keep the mouser in their space), but when they take the step... another effect places them elsewhere (say for instance, they and the mouser where adjacent to a teleport circle or something). It's not the step that does it. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with an arcanist dimension sliding if they were surrounded by enemies or enclosed in a small 5 by 5 space and couldn't otherwise take a 5-foot step.