Organized Play Manager
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This thread is for the discussion of the boon system and suggestions for changes for Pathfinder Society in 2019.
For more context to this thread, visit Pathfinder Playtest and Pathfinder Society FAQ.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Well, the big question to me is what happens to the giant stack of boons I've got in a folder here? Can they be carried forward to 2nd ed or do they effectively expire in 16 months?
My vote is to carry some forward on a boon-by-boon basis. Some probably won't work in the new system, but if it CAN be brought forward it should.
Developer
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1. Rerolls: Old boons could become campaign tokens if you turn them in at conventions.
2. Welcome to the Society: The new Welcome to the Society Boon could have unlocked additional tiers depending on how many boons you staple to it.
3. Welcome to the Society 2: The new Welcome to the Society Boon could have unlocked additional tiers depending on how many stars you earned in the current Organized Play Program.
4. Race Boons: That thing you guys did with Merfolk? It could be done with the first round of PFS2 race boons. Just tell us in advance so we don't throw out what we have.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I have given significantly more than 80 % of the boons I have ever received as GM or player away (either directly to players or as prizes for various raffles, so take my oppinion with truck load of salt.
Boons should be transplanted to the next organized play I am a big fan of giving everyone a fresh start. When I started society play unlimited aasimars/tieflings were no longer legal and some races were given out as GM boons many years ago.
Just like they handled the transition to Starfinder, giving everyone a fair start feels like a good idea.
To make those how have collected a lot of PFS boons happy, I would suggest introducing some way for them the "spend" those extra boons for other benefits in PFS 1 (maybe XP/Gold to boost a character or something similar).
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Developer
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1.) Not to bring up the elephant in the room, but can we do something about boon security? I'm a pretty trusting guy, but I never know if a boon I got in a trade was just photocopied.
A.) The low-tech solution would be to make a sub-forum exclusively for Pathfinder Society boons. Make a thread every time you release a new boon. Every time a player assigns a boon to one of their characters, or trades it to another player, they write a post. Print a hyperlink to the thread on the boon sheet so everyone involved understands the process. This would also eliminate the need for the player run "boon list" currently being kept in a google drive, and encourage convention participation for new players who don't know how cool new boons are!
B.) The high-tech solution would be to assign boons as unique hash tag gift certificates that expire when they are redeemed. They don't even need to print out the boon themselves. But this would require a whole new program to be implemented on the site, which our shiny new streamlined site doesn't need.
2.) I want watermarks on my boons indicating what "slot" they go into! Ok, I just think it'd look pretty...
3.) Please don't use QR codes as a solution. They are a terrible idea.
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Developer
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I understand. I mean, if a player wants to cheat, we really can't stop them. It really defeats the whole purpose of organized play and the lawful player who has the "fake boon" shouldn't be punished, having earned the boon they gave up for it lawfully.
I remember telling a friend about how excited I was to play Eyes of the Ten. When I explained to him how PFS worked, he asked why I didn't just report a bunch of fake games and pretend to get a character to level 12 so I could play Eyes of the Ten...and that kind of attitude will always find a way around whatever security measure we put into place but...
If there is a security measure we can think of implementing, this is our only chance to implement it (before any boons are awarded for the campaign).
Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South
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I would vastly appreciate 2 things, firstly an option to do something meaningful with your old boons (especially race boons) in PFS2 and that once the playtest is released that we giver out PF2 boons at conventions (there is already a big pushback of my regular gms against new race boons for PF1 because they will not be able to use it anyways.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Especially for race boons I'd like to see a gradual trade-in scheme. Not everything at once, flooding some people with boons while newer players still have nothing.
But what about: when a race is published for which you have a V1 boon, you can trade with your VC for a V2 boon?
Converting all race boons would then take several years, as new books come out containing the plethora of races currently in circulation.
Channeling it through the VC would also give an opportunity to add some anti-fraud markings to old chronicles. After all if someone comes to their VC with ten of the same race boon that's going to raise eyebrows.
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Question regarding charity auction race boons:
For those of us that have 1 of a kind race boons could those transfer? I'm not speaking for everyone but I know some people have held onto their specialty race boons. I mean donating 200-700 for a character to play over a long period of time then saying it is only viable for the next two years is a little harsh.
I mean at least with usual race boons there's a chance to re-earn them but for things like the wyvern, goblin, android, ect the people that donated to have them essentially paid for a piece of paper that is going to collect dust after 2020.
I don't know it just makes me sad.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South
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ItsJustAce:
If there is something for raceboons then it should apply to all of them:
If not there will be a lot of people crying out loud "PAY TO WIN", especially because the boons should be a reward for GMing at conventions and I see a very lackluster interest for any con next year when I am starting to asking who wants to GM. There should be something meaningfull (and a lvel 2 character is NOT meaningfull at all for GMs) for those who do and it should be a piece of paper collecting dust (Because a lot of us CAN NOT play 1st edition after the release of 2nd because we dont have any scenarios left.
So something should be done for all raceboons, maybe not carriing them over exactly but maybe a tradein for other exclusive races? (Because I can forsee not all boonraces being available at the start of the 2nd edition.)
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I agree, there are a lot of people that GMed a lot at Gencon for a rare boon.
there are even more people doing the retail gming for the tiefling or asamar(I think??)
Could we possible get a boon that allows us to bring a race boon over from V.1.0? Like for GenConGM boons, limited boons, or like the ones to make the merfolk.
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I like the Starfinder system of slotting boons, but with less than a dozen adventures under my belt my characters already have to track a lot of 'slotless boons' making it little different that the Pathfinder system that already exists.
Also there might enter an issue with boons not stacking with the boons of other characters. 'Well I have this starship boon, is anyone else planing of slotting it?' I doubt that starship boons specifically will appear in the new Pathfinder, but Party or Exploration boons that benefit the whole party are a welcome possibility. Maybe make it that the first party boon of a type give a bonus, and each boon of the same name gives a small additional bonus?
It means players now have to coordinate their boons, which can slow character selection. That might be something that needs to be considered.
I REALLY like Starfinder's 'retirement' boons, where a tiered out character gives a starting boon to a new character. I wouldn't mind seeing this expanded to include multiple options, some generic and some faction/race/class specific.
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I would like a system to be able to salvage/recycle my race boons, the first of which I finally was able to earn 6 months ago.
I feel like: "Oh, cool! Now I can craft the perfect character for this race--What? Oh, crap! If I want to play it, I'd better hurry up and slap something together."
Even then, I'll only have maybe a dozen games on the character before the end of PF1 PFS.
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I'm cross posting this from a less official thread:
I wouldn't even mind if it was a different race. Something along the lines of: You earned this reward but never had a chance to use it; you may trade it in for one of these 3 predetermined options.
So I void my Vanara boon in front of my VC. He hands me a PF2 PFS race boon.
I know there are people with a dragon's horde of race boons. The only suggestion that I have is leave it at 1 each of the predetermined options.
On the subject of boons in general: I do like the way Starfinder's boon slots work.
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I'd like boons to carry over in a limited manner. Something like "Attach 5 legacy campaign boons to the Welcome to 2e boon to unlock X race. Attach 10 to unlock Y race."
Not that the idea isn't bad, but at the scaling rate you're proposing only people with the highest access to boons (and likely the same people who will have the easiest access to 2e boons) would be able to take advantage of it.
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I believe the boons should not carry over. As others have said, having a fresh start for all with everyone on a level playing field is great. Since 1e characters will not carry over why carry anything else from that edition over?
@Sprada I believe it will all depend on your local lodge but I know our location will be running all three (1e, 2e, and sfs) until interest is lost. Our store doesn't decide what we offer our lodge and players do. Paizo has said that they will continue to support 1e PFS play.
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I would like to see at least the race boons carry over. Most people do put forth a good amount of time and effort to acquire them and it be a shame to not get to use them.
I agree, I'm all for level playing fields, but maybe we could implement the race boons at a later time?
There are just several people who have dedicated SEVERAL hours to this organization and the boons they received were there thanks. I just feel like it's kind of a slap in the face to say, "Thank you very much for the last 5 years, but we're starting over from scratch so it doesn't matter how much work you put in everyone's on the same playing field now."I get it, they want to get new people interesting in the game and that's great. But, I feel like pathfinder will lose many veterans in the process.
I would like to see at least the race boons carry over. Most people do put forth a good amount of time and effort to acquire them and it be a shame to not get to use them.I agree, I'm all for level playing fields, but maybe we could implement the race boons at a later time?
There are just several people who have dedicated SEVERAL hours to this organization and the boons they received were there thanks. I just feel like it's kind of a slap in the face to say, "Thank you very much for the last 5 years, but we're starting over from scratch so it doesn't matter how much work you put in everyone's on the same playing field now."
I get it, they want to get new people interesting in the game and that's great. But, I feel like pathfinder will lose many veterans in the process.
I think race boons are the worst of the boons to carry over and I have a lot of them. Receiving boons for dedicated service is great and that is why we received them, but this is a new system/rule set. They may not even want those races as usable anymore in PFS. Also, no one is being penalized since there will still be PFS1e play and support. There will be more chances to help and support organized play where you can get new boons and that's the fun.
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Also, no one is being penalized since there will still be PFS1e play and support. There will be more chances to help and support organized play where you can get new boons and that's the fun.
This is not specifically true. While I have learned that it is not specifically untrue, they have made no decisions about what support will be provided beyond bookkeeping.
Also, it is very lodge dependent whether there will be PFS1e play.
Yours? Sure.
Mine? Not likely.
Also, no one is being penalized since there will still be PFS1e play and support. There will be more chances to help and support organized play where you can get new boons and that's the fun.This is not specifically true. While I have learned that it is not specifically untrue, they have made no decisions about what support will be provided beyond bookkeeping.
Also, it is very lodge dependent whether there will be PFS1e play.
Yours? Sure.
Mine? Not likely.
Yes, that is understandable but what I was referring to was the comment about this being a slap in the face from Paizo. The individual lodges are making the choice to continue playing or not. Paizo is not saying stop playing or stopping anyone from continuing PFS1e. So, if it is considered a slap in the face (and I am by no means saying it is), its the person that perceives it as such because the lodges are not running PFS1e. This is what is causing feelings/reactions and not Paizo.
Also, I just re-read my quote and I did not intend for it to sound like I know Paizo is going to continue support with new boons etc... for P1e, I was referring to being able to put in time and get boons in P2e.
Sorry for the confusion and you are absolutely correct, we only know that bookkeeping will continue to be supported at this point.
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That's not specifically true either. My personal lodge will probably keep running PFSv1 which is fine, but that was not what I was referring to.
I've personally only been playing 2 years, I know several people who have only been in PFS for about the same amount of time. Most of them have multiple race boons and characters that are no where near retiring.
If PFSv1 ends at the end of season 10 that only leaves a little over 40 new games left to play as far as scenarios are concerned. Many of us have played over 100 scenarios and it is very unlikely that all of our characters will reach retirement with the remainder of PFSv1. That doesn't even include race boons not yet used. That's what I was referring to. The numbers just aren't there.
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If PFSv1 ends at the end of season 10 that only leaves a little over 40 new games left to play as far as scenarios are concerned. Many of us have played over 100 scenarios and it is very unlikely that all of our characters will reach retirement with the remainder of PFSv1. That doesn't even include race boons not yet used. That's what I was referring to. The numbers just aren't there.
PFS1 will not "end" at the end of season 10. They will stop producing scenarios for it. But you will still have well over 400xp worth of playing opportunities with PFS1 that will still be available for the "indefinite future" (quote per Tonya in the PFS2 FAQ).
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PFS1 will not "end" at the end of season 10. They will stop producing scenarios for it. But you will still have well over 400xp worth of playing opportunities with PFS1 that will still be available for the "indefinite future" (quote per Tonya in the PFS2 FAQ).
If PFSv1 ends at the end of season 10 that only leaves a little over 40 new games left to play as far as scenarios are concerned. Many of us have played over 100 scenarios and it is very unlikely that all of our characters will reach retirement with the remainder of PFSv1. That doesn't even include race boons not yet used. That's what I was referring to. The numbers just aren't there.
Could you tell me where I am going to get those 400 xp worth of playing opportunities? Because it's not going to be within 4 hours of where I live.
EDIT: The question is rhetorical. I'm sure somewhere far too far away for me, I could keep playing PFS PF1. However, the point that I want to underline is this: someone who has an opportunity to select from multiple tables every week (or maybe even more than once a week) does not know how those of us who are lucky to get 1 table per month feel about this. The "there's going to be all this content to keep playing" comments made in various forms in an effort to try to shut down the concerns of small lodges is getting on my nerves.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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PFS1 will not "end" at the end of season 10. They will stop producing scenarios for it. But you will still have well over 400xp worth of playing opportunities with PFS1 that will still be available for the "indefinite future" (quote per Tonya in the PFS2 FAQ).
If PFSv1 ends at the end of season 10 that only leaves a little over 40 new games left to play as far as scenarios are concerned. Many of us have played over 100 scenarios and it is very unlikely that all of our characters will reach retirement with the remainder of PFSv1. That doesn't even include race boons not yet used. That's what I was referring to. The numbers just aren't there.
That's only true if more replays get unlocked. As of today, there is 74 37 xp worth of playing opportunities.
Edit, sorry, 74 was play + GM.
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PFS1 will not "end" at the end of season 10. They will stop producing scenarios for it. But you will still have well over 400xp worth of playing opportunities with PFS1 that will still be available for the "indefinite future" (quote per Tonya in the PFS2 FAQ).
That's really just not true. Currently there are 251 scenarios and 35 playable modules.
251 scenarios = 251 xproughly 30-40 scenarios in season 10 = 35 xp
about 70 of them go up to 11, including specials that are very hard to play.
That may seem like alot but it's not actually.
those 70 games have to be shared across someone's entire character list from levels 8/9-11. That's 4 levels at 3 xp each which is already 12 scenarios.
Which means a player (at this moment (mid to end of season 9)) can only get 5 characters to retirement. (through scenarios only) and that is just for people who haven't played any 7-11 or 9-11s yet.
So for people with race boons that they haven't even touched yet, this may seem like a hard feet to accomplish.
Your right, PFS isn't dead but if our characters never develop into their full grown potentials it might as well be for them. It sucks when a character dies in a campaign, or for a campaign to be called off for any reason when a character is mid way through it's development. This is that for me and other people but 4 to 10 times worse.
I didn't include modules because modules are a whole different beast. They are longer and yes you get more xp for them but even then there are on 35 modules (don't know if they're all sanctioned) which equal out to be 140 xp. Yes you do get more xp for playing one book over 1 scenario and that's great. But, all it does is level up your characters at a faster rate to sit and wait for a scenario to come around and push them to retirement. which means using one of those 7-11 games. I've already got people saying they're just going to quit or wait for 2.0 to release. It's just a really defeated feeling.
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PFS1 will not "end" at the end of season 10. They will stop producing scenarios for it. But you will still have well over 400xp worth of playing opportunities with PFS1 that will still be available for the "indefinite future" (quote per Tonya in the PFS2 FAQ).
If PFSv1 ends at the end of season 10 that only leaves a little over 40 new games left to play as far as scenarios are concerned. Many of us have played over 100 scenarios and it is very unlikely that all of our characters will reach retirement with the remainder of PFSv1. That doesn't even include race boons not yet used. That's what I was referring to. The numbers just aren't there.That's only true if more replays get unlocked. As of today, there is
7437 xp worth of playing opportunities.Edit, sorry, 74 was play + GM.
Plus approximately 10 more from Season 9, 26 from Season 10, plus maybe 5 from Specials. Then assuming they sanction all the remaining modules and APs, we are looking at another 50 to 100 XP of stuff.
I have hardly any XP still available through Season 7. I have played half of season 8 and none of season 9. So I have slightly more than you do, but I have outplayed at least two complete Tiers (5-9 & 7-11) prior to season 8 starting.
The point being, PFS1 will still exist, with lots of play opportunities. Replay should never be an option.
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Back to the point of the thread: Boons
As I stated earlier, I like how Starfinder boon slots work.
However, part of the stated reason for the change on the blog was to reduce the amount of book keeping needed to keep track of all the boons one has accumulated on random chronicles. The addition of the slotless boon defeated this purpose. Now, all is fine and good in Starfinder, no need to change it up.
The PFS PF2 campaign is an opportunity to try to do it again: reduce the need to flip through a dozen chronicles to remember that you have a +X to do Y. Use boon slots, forgo slotless boons except in the most special cases, and make all boons truly significant (and more generally applicable) when slotted.
E.g. If I have an "Achievement Boon" slot, something that I can slot there that gives me +1 to Diplomacy vs. all creatures of the goblin subtype is going to matter a lot more than +1 to Intimidate slave trading pirates who wear blue eyepatches when within 50 miles of the Shackles.
Some boon slot types to think about (mostly repeated from SF for those who haven't payed much attention to SFS):
Ally - this has manifested in some cool ways in SF
Faction - could either be done the same as SF or have purchasable options within each faction that could be slotted here
Personal - as SF, special race access or class/archetype access
Social/Achievement/Reputation - something you're known for accomplishing (in the course of a scenario) gives you a boon
Profession - boons that assist with day job checks or other ways of increasing income
Companion - boons that apply to your animal companion/familiar/etc, may fall into the same category as Ally, but it seems like a Druid could have both an Ally like the hireling boons and a boon that benefits his wolf companion or access to a special type of animal companion (like the XXXXXXX from the goblin module).
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Assuming we use Boon Slots:
What if for each Seeker Character you have prior to August 2019, you get a Seeker Boon that goes in a special Legacy Boon Slot, that grants that character some sort of legacy bonus.
This gives folks an incentive to get a few of their favorite characters up to Seeker level by August 2019.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Hey Tonya —
Here’s a thought that I have. I think that going forward, if you are going to keep GMs gming and motivated through the transition period, I think that all convention race boons going forward should have two options on them:
1) 1 race boon that is usable for 1e.
2) 1 race boon that is usable for 2e (possibly the same race, possibly not.)
Boon recipients pick the option that they want when they apply it, and cross the other one out.
Why? I think there are lot of GMs who feel like their boons for 1e have a limited shelf life now. It’s time to give the boons away or use them, and there is only so far that you can level characters before 2e becomes prevalent. Having future boons have an option for both 1e and 2e means that GMs might be more excited about earning them.
Hmm
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Developer
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Hero Points are going to make all kinds of boons more interesting. Not just paper-boons like Convention Rewards, but Retail Incentive and even in-Scenario Boons!
And not just restoring Hero Points when a circumstance is met...but also giving us the ability to spend Hero Points on new, niche abilities will help balance boons that might be too powerful without some kind of "cost".
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I’d like a fresh start and clear separation, since I plan to keep playing both PF1 and PF2, either in person or online. It’ be confusing if there’s too much mixing and matching.
I like the slotting of boons in Starfinder, though I agree there’s too many slotless boons which undermines the point of keeping players from flipping through 20 Chronicles in the middle of a session. (though what irks me more are boons on one PC’s Chronicles that can apply to any of that player’s PCs, because that means multiple stacks may come to the table.
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One of the things I've heard (but am now not seeing in writing atm :P) is that there will be a slotted Boon system similar to what we see in SFS. I don't see why we couldn't see a "Legacy" slot where an unused/unassigned Boon from 1.0 couldn't be slotted into a 2.0 character for a static bonus of some variety.
I get that there won't likely be a direct conversion in place for any unassigned Race boons, but I also would like to see things like fulfilled RSP goals get an option to be turned in for the 2.0 launch equivalent.
As for the topic of boons, in general, I would like to see more generalized static benefits (think, you're under the effect of Endure Elements in hot environments) and less hyper-specific bonuses (think, you get a +1 Diplo against this specific flavor of gnoll).
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I have dozens of unused boons and don't think any should carry over into PF2. It's a whole new system, new money, new race availability, and so forth which the old boons weren't made to balance with. Just the fact I'd have to reevaluate the worth of my boons means maybe I shouldn't be.
There's a year and a half until PF2 if there's some really special boon (Eyes of the Ten or auctioned) you wish to play, though I could see an exception made for a short list of boons like those.