Halflings With Katars


Advice


I’m running a homebrew game and I need stats to match a rather suboptimal concept for a group of NPCs.

The concept is a guild of halfling assassins trained with katars.

Optimally they’re all 1 class just to make running the combat a little easier but they work well together.

I know katars are a terrible choice for a weapon and a halfling makes it worse but I’m trying to come up with something halfway decent to challenge a 4th level party in even numbers.

Do I go fighters and just use feats to make katars suck less? Rogue to get sneak attack damage?

Ideally the guild ends up a recurring antagonist and I can continue to add levels to make deadlier and deadlier assassins.


Question- which weapon are you referring to? The tri-bladed katar? Or the punching dagger.

Punching daggers are also katars, just without the specific name (and potentially also including t handled knives). However, at least one named magic weapon, En-Nebi, is a punching dagger referred to as a katar.

Ok. That is out of the way. So, back to the current discussion- slayers tend to be good if you are looking for more martially focused 'rogues'. Maybe a mix of unchained rogues and slayers? That means that one debuffs, while the other is a full martial that benefits at least somewhat from that debuff.

Standardized outflank and improved outflank teamwork feats would allow them to keep up their numbers and allow them to be flexible in arrangement.


Think about how Halflings using Katars would approach a fight when they realize they can't win in a slugging match.

Poison slingstaff volleys from rooftops before closing to melee?
Tanglefoot bags to impair the maneuverability of the party?
Obstacles preventing charges and helping set up flanking attacks?
Oil slick floors, letting the dexterous rogues control the battlefield, and if it goes south, lighting a match and fleeing, leaving the party to escape a burning building?

Or, maybe the assassins skip the fight altogether, have an assassin sneak into the parties stuff and poison the rations, then next time the party eats their meal, the assassins descend. If the assassin is found, the party kills him easily, but they don't know how many other assassins are out there.

If you want a recurring villain, give the party a few non-direct encounters. Someone poisoned their food, but who? Someone stole their fighter's armour, but who? Someone killed a friend of the party, but who? Someone stashed a helm of opposite alignment in the treasure pile, and now the cleric has fallen and we're down a healer, but who- Wait, did you hear that?

ASSASSIN ATTACK

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tollak Vargsson wrote:
Rogue to get sneak attack damage?

Halflings have a Str penalty, so Dex to damage is a good idea, and unchained rogue is one of the best ways to get it. As a katar is just a specific type of punching dagger, consider the knife master archetype to change those sneak attack dice from d6 to d8 with it.


Knifemaster UC Rogue might be more than necessary for even number battles at low levels.

Vanguard Slayers get teamwork feats, which goes well with the whole guild of assassins thing.

Have the leader of the band be an Archaeologist Bard with rogue talents for some flavor.

Shouldn't be overpowering at low levels, but should scale with the party as more teamwork kicks in.

If it continues long enough, take the Archaeologist Bard into the Assassin prestige class.


What the Proley Trolley said. If you're looking at builds:

1. Eldritch Guardian fighters with familiars as Flanking buddies
2. Eldritch Scion magi channeling spells into their attacks while taking advantage of decent Cha
3. Levels in Sorcerer or Oracle (again, to take advantage of Cha) and buffing themselves into combat

The biggest drawback to these NPCs besides Small sized damage on punching daggers is that they only move 20. If they use Acrobatics for example to move to a spot where they get no AoO's, they're only moving 10'. Some ways to mitigate:

1. Barbarian
2. Alternate race trait that gives them 30' base speed
3. Anything that gives them a Familiar, then making the familiar a Mauler that can assume Medium size
4. Any class that grants an Animal Companion or Mount
5. Monk

Finally, to add to what Prol-ball said, think about every way they might inflict conditions or control the battlefield

1. Net: entangle Medium or smaller foes
2. Smokesticks: make the PCs come to us
3. Tiny spaces: we can squeeze through; Medium sized opponents are highly challenged
4. Hit and run tactics: hard to pull off in this game, I know, but if the assassins win initiative after the surprise round, what happens if they spend their first round diving through a 1' x 1.5' sewer grate? Medium PCs are hard pressed to follow and 2 rounds later the same assassins might pop out of a nearby alley for another...

SURPRISE ROUND!


I agree with the weapon finesse ideas. You could make them rangers with paired katars, favored enemies that match the PC's and favored terrain of urban. They specialize in hit-and-run tactics, with or without poison. Toss in spring attack as soon as it's possible and they aren't too sub-optimal. Give the elites bane katars and they get even scarier.


If you go with TWF slayers, thus having sneak attack dice, as levels progress, you can have them katar in one hand, sap in the other, take Sap Adept and Sap Master, and Throatslicer feats...

They knock you out with a sap, coup de grace with the katar.

A bunch of full BAB sneaky teamwork-using TWF slayers with saps and katars, with an actual Assassin prestige class leader scales thematically with the party.

Manageable at low levels, but the party better get it together and learn how to fight them in later levels, or they will be coup de graced one at a time.

One person can knock you out with a sap, his teammates can coup de grace you as standard actions. What says assassin more than the coup de grace?

Slayers do not qualify for Sap Master until level 9, without feats to acquire more SA dice. So it is a scaling system not overpowering the party too early.


Arutema wrote:
Tollak Vargsson wrote:
Rogue to get sneak attack damage?
Halflings have a Str penalty, so Dex to damage is a good idea, and unchained rogue is one of the best ways to get it. As a katar is just a specific type of punching dagger, consider the knife master archetype to change those sneak attack dice from d6 to d8 with it.

While they have a dex penalty, it doesn't neccessarily mean that you 'have' to go dex build. It is possible to get 16/14/14/10/10/9 on a 20 pt build- not great, but it has the same attack bonus as an 18 str build (due to size bonuses), and you only lose out on a bit of damage.

This could help them keep up the CMB if you need to do maneuver stuff without spending feats.

So it might be good to have the option for some slayers.


I agree that burning feats for dexterity based attack and damage is just silly for an NPC reoccurring bad guy. The stats above would be fine for starters, as they progress and level with the party, having extra feats to stay scary will be way better than weapon finesse and/or slashing grace.

You can spend a trait on wisdom of the flesh and put stealth on wisdom. Which helps THEIR will saves.

Them being small is fun, and I really think the teamwork feats available through the Vanguard Slayer archetype would provide a fun dynamic that is both sensible because they are small and have to work together, and thematic because they are part of the same clan.

Put them in medium armor, sap adept/master @9, dastardly finish @ 15, and whatever movement and teamwork feats you find they need. Gives you access to pretty much every special coup de grace there is, and lots of damage variety with saps and katars coming at you from every angle...

The thing about teamwork feats, where there's one, there's probably another...

They are footsoldiers, Shredder is the scary one. Scale the battles as needed even if the party can pretty easily deal with equal numbers of equal level footsoldiers, who really cares? Can they handle twice as many? Who knows what the footsoldiers have done as far as traps later on? How about they all start using poison weapons when their leader, the Bard, prestiges into Assassin @ 10 and learns how to use poison?

Just make them all the same, same stats and feats, scale the number and the environment to make it challenging for the party, as needed. It doesn't get too much easier than that unless you make them all Unbreakable Fighters.

Teamwork feats and movement feats are probably going to be more useful throughout the entire platform overall. It's easy to scale footsoldier engagements. And I'm sure the team has other stuff to do besides fight these guys every day, so it will be fun reintroducing them as they have gained some levels with the party and now have new tricks or teamwork feats, suddenly they all have Step Up and Strike... When did this happen?!


I appreciate all the answers. I’ve definitely got some stuff to think about.

Grand Lodge

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lemeres wrote:
Arutema wrote:
Tollak Vargsson wrote:
Rogue to get sneak attack damage?
Halflings have a Str penalty, so Dex to damage is a good idea, and unchained rogue is one of the best ways to get it. As a katar is just a specific type of punching dagger, consider the knife master archetype to change those sneak attack dice from d6 to d8 with it.

While they have a dex penalty, it doesn't neccessarily mean that you 'have' to go dex build. It is possible to get 16/14/14/10/10/9 on a 20 pt build- not great, but it has the same attack bonus as an 18 str build (due to size bonuses), and you only lose out on a bit of damage.

This could help them keep up the CMB if you need to do maneuver stuff without spending feats.

So it might be good to have the option for some slayers.

I agree I did pretty much this exact thing but went into Brawler Snakebite Striker after three lvls. Boosted feint so as to get sneak attack dmg as often as possible and upping punching dagger base damage as well.


VoodistMonk wrote:

If you go with TWF slayers, thus having sneak attack dice, as levels progress, you can have them katar in one hand, sap in the other, take Sap Adept and Sap Master, and Throatslicer feats...

They knock you out with a sap, coup de grace with the katar.

A bunch of full BAB sneaky teamwork-using TWF slayers with saps and katars, with an actual Assassin prestige class leader scales thematically with the party.

Manageable at low levels, but the party better get it together and learn how to fight them in later levels, or they will be coup de graced one at a time.

One person can knock you out with a sap, his teammates can coup de grace you as standard actions. What says assassin more than the coup de grace?

Slayers do not qualify for Sap Master until level 9, without feats to acquire more SA dice. So it is a scaling system not overpowering the party too early.

Holy. Schnikes.

I'd never even heard of the Throat Slicer feat. Looking it over, imagine making these Halflings as groups, not just individuals.

They are NPCs and intended as a challenge for level 4 PCs, so I'm guessing Fighter 4 so individually they are CR 3. That gives the halflings a base stat array of 15/14/13/12/10/8, the heroic array.

The suggestion under creating NPCs is that a melee focused NPC has the following layout, from Str to Cha: 15/13/14/10/12/8. Using Halfling stat changes the final fighter breaks down to 13/15/14/10/12/10. Then tacking on a +1 Stat increase from level 4 you add one to Dex giving them a 16 in that stat.

Now remember I said they work in groups? Remember how there's a feat called Extra Traits that gives NPC Halflings the ability to take Fools for Friends and Helpful Halfling, so that now one of them is granting another one a +5 Aid Another bonus on, say, a Grapple check?

If one aids and one grapples using Agile Maneuvers and Throat Slicer, you could quickly start threatening a Fort save from Coup de Grace around a DC 25 if they survive into round 2.

That high of a Fort save, you're looking at PC death there.


Why waste feats converting to dexterity? Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Finesse, and Slashing Grace (even Agile weapon enchantments), are a trap.

Leave them based on strength, even with a penalty. Use the feats you save for movement, like step up/follow up/step up and strike.

Sap adept/master is worth more than grappling when you combine it with Throatslicer and Coordinated Charge. If the first Sap Master charge doesn't knock you out, the second one will, and the third guy casually walks up and coup de graces you.

The slower Sneak Attack dice progression of the Slayer, and the focus on movement and teamwork feats actually slows the progression of how scary they are, giving the party a chance to adapt.

Make them wisdom based stealth so they aren't TOO sneaky, giving the party a chance.

Make them have no magical anything, so party members spamming detect magic can't find them easily. Thus, no Agile weapons.


As a follow up I built the standard Halfling. I got my numbers wrong above so please check my stuff here and make sure I've done it right this time:

Build halflings as level 4 fighters, CR 3 threats each:

Str to Cha: 13/16/14/10/12/8

Level 1 Improved Unarmed
Level 1 bonus Improved Grapple
Level 2 bonus Agile Maneuvers
Level 3 Extra Traits: Fools for Friends, Helpful Halfling
Level 4 Throat Slicer

BAB +4; CMB +6 (+8 Grapple); CMD 17
Melee: grapple +8; masterwork punching dagger +6 (1d3 +1; x3)

1. Round 1
a. Helper: grappling Aid Another CMB +8 to grant friend +5 Grapple
b. Grappler: Grapple +13
2. Round 2
a. Grappler: Grapple +13 to pin opponent; +5 bonus comes from holding on for 1 round
b. Helper: Throat Slicer on pinned opponent; coup de grace avg DC 19

My original post above considered 2 different builds; one as the grappler, one as a katar specialist. Re-reading the OP the GM wants one consistent build, so this covers it.

It's only now a DC 19 Fort save, doable for martial types at level 4 but still very hard to survive. It still also takes this 2 man team 2 rounds to achieve potential coup de grace, but this is a CR 5 threat.


VoodistMonk wrote:

Why waste feats converting to dexterity? Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Finesse, and Slashing Grace (even Agile weapon enchantments), are a trap.

Leave them based on strength, even with a penalty. Use the feats you save for movement, like step up/follow up/step up and strike.

Sap adept/master is worth more than grappling when you combine it with Throatslicer and Coordinated Charge. If the first Sap Master charge doesn't knock you out, the second one will, and the third guy casually walks up and coup de graces you.

The slower Sneak Attack dice progression of the Slayer, and the focus on movement and teamwork feats actually slows the progression of how scary they are, giving the party a chance to adapt.

Make them wisdom based stealth so they aren't TOO sneaky, giving the party a chance.

Make them have no magical anything, so party members spamming detect magic can't find them easily. Thus, no Agile weapons.

But Sap Master pre-req = 3d6 Sneak Attack damage. Even building straight rogue that means at least level 5. APL is 4, which means a single sap master is CR 4, or equal to APL. Could a group of these be TOO op for the PCs?


I would do nothing but teamwork and movement feats at the beginning. Even with Sap Adept as soon as they have TWF and 1D6 SA dice, which would be level 3... They aren't that scary. Maybe one teamwork feat at this point.

Throatslicer @ 5, but they won't be using it yet.

Another teamwork feat @ 7, because you need two previous teamwork feats to qualify for coordinated charge.

Sap Master @ 9, earliest you have 3D6 without burning a feat for extra.

And @ 11 you get coordinated charge... Better hope your party has figured out how to protect one another.

Everything after this is movement based feats or more teamwork feats.

The vanguard is actually the most nerfed archetype you can choose, because you aren't even using his ability to share teamwork feats. So you are effectively wasting a special ability that another archetype may have to make them even more scary.

I chose this set up specifically to give the party a fighting chance...


Level 4 unchained rogue knife master/scout

Dex to damage, Dex to attack. Dump str, high Dex and con. Grab an initiative trait and improved initiative and they will likely go first. Four charges in surprise (or just first round) all with 2d8 sneak attack damage + d4+4 dex. That will likely drop the "tank" and next turn they charge someone else. Take toughness for some more health beyond the high con and these "rogues" will feel more like 2hand fighters.


We all realize: the OP was asking for a build to make halflings with katars, a suboptimal build, less suboptimal, for an APL 4 party? If a single level 11 Slayer gets in front of them, they're dead meat.

Now you might be suggesting future build stuff there so my sincere apologies if I'm misreading, but right now I'm only thinking about the level 4 encounters.

Also we're building NPCs, not PCs. That means sticking to the guidelines re: building NPCs; normal or heroic stat arrays, NPC wealth by level, no Traits at the start unless they burn a feat on it, etc.

Finally a question to the OP: were you looking for a build to utterly destroy the PCs or just mildly annoy them? I mean building the baseline, entry-level assassins as Warrior 3/Expert 2, CR 3 NPCs with 3 feats, a heroic array of stats, and maybe a single consumable magic item that might actually factor into the combat would be easy to make and easy to throw out on the battle map.

Then again if you're looking for Slayer 4, CR 3 types who are as RIDICULOUSLY optimized as we can make them, I think folks chiming in here have proven that with a chain of only 3 feats you can put together some horrifying builds.

Imagine for example, if you didn't mind putting assassins with different classes out there. Take a Halfling sorcerer 4 hyper-focused on casting Sleep spells; they could get a Sleep spell up to DC 16 as far as I can tell, maybe even DC 18 if they read a really expensive scroll in the Surprise round.

With three feats a Halfling Rogue 4 helping the sorcerer could ready an action, move 20' up to whoever passes out, use Throat Slicer, and with 4 levels of rogue deal 1d3 +1 x3, plus 2d6 SA damage, for an average of 16 damage. That yields a DC 26 Fort save or the PC dies.

... in one round, because they failed one Will save.

TL/DR; my vote is for the lowest level mooks just give 'em Warrior 3/Expert 2, chain together some "assassin-like" feats, and don't hype the deadliness of them until the PCs start hitting some elite agents. Then start dropping builds like a katar-wielding, Ghoul Touch casting Sorcerer 4/Rogue 2 that focuses on Two Weapon fighting, casting his Touch attack in the Surprise round, then using Throat Slicer on anyone that fails the save while onlookers are Sickened by the stench...


Yeah, and the pack of rogues descend upon the low level party and feast on their flesh. How is the party supposed to reliably defend against this? Might as well have one baller assassin just kill one party member a night until no one in the group wants to play anymore. Unchained Rogues with D8 SA dice and full SA dice progression... What's wrong with you? Lol.

Size small katars and saps are menial damage. Sap master makes the small sap better, coup de graces play to the katars crit multiplier.

Coup de graces draw AoO, even with Throatslicer and Dastardly Finish. This gives your party a chance to save their unconscious friend.

It's easy to just kill the party.

Making a fun, scaling, continuous enemy means showing restraint unless the party is highly optimized.


I figured "even numbers" means party of 4 of same class level. If it's an ambush, they would be rogue-like, using dagger like weapons is what rogues do. Sure it's dangerous, but 50% chance of winning IS dangerous, and that's what an even number fight is...


Slightly less sneaky, less SA dice, and nonlethal damage to knock someone out, plus the AoO if they try the coup de grace gives the party a fighting chance against equal numbers of equal level full character sheet NPC's.

Unless you are following the NPC rules for CR, then there's no point truly optimizing the assassin apprentices.

If anything, nerfing them is necessary to keep it fun.

Thus, strength based halflings, wisdom based stealth, medium armor, fewer SA dice, nonlethal damage from saps, killing blows that provoke AoO, and fewer special archetype abilities... They are still full leveled, lots of feats, real PC level characters for the party to fight.

But it will be a fight every time the two groups interact... Not a bloodbath from optimized rogues they never saw coming.


Unfortunately, Katars are martial weapons, so you have to take a class that has the proficiency, unless you want to waste a feat on the weapon. I have given two possible builds below. I used the standard heroic array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and did not include any traits or favored class bonus. They are also somewhat undergeared for their level, which normally should be about 2400 gp, instead of the approximately 700 - 1000 gp I used. The first one is a single classed option which you said you wanted. The second is a multi-class option.

Halfling Swashbucker (4): Str: 12-2=10 Dex: 15+2+1=18 Con: 13 Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 14+2=16, HP: 29 +6 Initiative
Skills: Acrobatics +10, Intimidate +10, Escape Artist: +10 Feats: Weapon Finesse (c), Weapon Focus (Katar), Dodge, Weapon Specializaton (Katar)
Armor Class 22/16 flat footed, 17 touch (+4 armor (masterwork chain shirt), +1 shield (masterwork buckler), +4 dexterity, +2 dodge (dodge feat, nimble class feature), +1 size)
Melee: Masterwork Katar +11 to hit (+4 BAB, +4 dex, +1 Weapon focus, +1 enhancement, +1 size), 1d3+6 (precise strike, weapon spec), x4 critical.
Ranged: Sling +9 to hit, 1d3 x20 damage
Other equipment: Flasks of alchemist fire x2, smokestick, tanglefoot bag, potion of shield of faith

Tactics: If the team knows they are facing a dangerous adversary, they will drink their potions at the beginning of combat. If facing archers, 1 will use a smokestick, while the others ready alchemist fire against the nearest target. If there is an obvious magic user, one will use a tanglefoot bag against the caster. If possible, they will attempt to flank for the additional +2 to hit. Any hit will trigger Menacing Swordplay unless they have used their swift action for charmed life. If below half health, they will switch to fighting defensively (-4 to hit, +3 to AC). If badly injured (less than 5 hp remaining), they will switch to total defense (+6 AC) and attempt to flee. They will never use their last Panache point. They will almost never use their sling unless facing flying targets or cannot reach the targets in melee.

If you are willing to use rapiers, you can go with inspired blade swashbucker and add the fencing grace feat, increasing damage to 1d4+10.

If willing to multi-class:

Brawler (Snakebite striker) 1/Unchained Rogue 3: Str: 12-2=10 Dex: 15+2+1=18 Con: 13 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 8+2=10 HP: 26 +4 init
Feats/Rogue Talents: Dodge, Weapon training (Katar), Two weapon fighting (Finesse Training/Katar)
Armor Class 21/16 flat footed, 16 touch (+4 armor (masterwork chain shirt), +1 shield (masterwork buckler), +4 dexterity, +1 dodge (dodge feat), +1 size)
Melee: Masterwork Katar +10 to hit (+3 BAB, +4 dex, +1 Weapon focus, +1 enhancement, +1 size), 1d3+4+3d6 sneak attack, x4 critical. Full attack: x2 Masterwork Katar +8 to hit (+3 BAB, +4 dex, +1 Weapon focus, +1 enhancement, +1 size, -2 twp weapon fighting), 1d3+4+3d6 sneak attack, x4 critical
Ranged: Sling +8 to hit, 1d3 x20 damage (+3d6 sneak attack if able to trigger)
Other equipment: Flasks of alchemist fire x2, smokestick, tanglefoot bag, potion of shield of faith

This will do a lot more damage than the swashbuckler when able to trigger the sneak attack. Tactics are similar, but flanking is much more important. I didn't include skills for this one.


Quick tangent/side note: most everyone else on these forums is more skilled at building challenging NPCs than me. I've had to restart campaigns several times over the years, all of which started at level 1, and I've also been focused a lot on Core material, so most of my NPCs tend to be "mean weenies;" humanoids, mites or other low-level creatures with NPC classes on them.

Oh, I can make a fairly dangerous Kobold Adept 3/Warrior 2 riding a flying Familiar now with the Mauler archetype added to it for a CR 2 challenge, or a Mite Adept 1 with Extra Traits and using spells to make the Giant Centipede she's riding truly threatening to a level 1 party, but honestly there's SO MUCH more we can build nowadays it's both exciting and intimidating!


Knife master rogues with gang up feat each would likeliest be the easiest to manage and the most straightforward of builds. At level 2 you can even take twf as a combat talent.


You can use katars without proficiency. That makes them "less optimized" but flavorful without sacrificing feats or class choice. The ultimate goal for these guys are to die at the hands of the PCs so not having katar proficiency isn't a deal breaker.


Aren't halflings proficient with any weapon they craft themselves? How hard is it to build a punching dagger with three blades? I think this can easily be worked around.

Or have them be slayers...

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