One of my players, running a Rogue, is interested in a Ring of Improved Invisibility. What would be the base cost and caster level? I honestly have tried figuring this out before, but always came up with different results.
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The price for such an item would be incredibly high considering how powerful the effect is and based on similar items.
Gallant Armors 54'000 gp there is way of the mark based on existing magical items.
A ring of Freedom of movement is a permanent 4th level spell on a ring, it costs 40'000. Now the major difference is that spell lasts 10 minutes a level and is a lot more situational but it is still considered a very good ring.
Improved invisibility only lasts 1 round a level and it is considered a very good spell because invisibility that doesn't turn off is a very powerful effect.
It would be incredibly expensive, I'll just put it this way, if your Rogue is on the wrong side of level 10 it shouldn't be on the table unless your playing a high powered game.
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My first instinct would be to simply say "no," and suggest the player get a wand and use UMD when they need it. But, if you want an estimate:
A normal ring of invisibility runs 20k gp. That's for a 2nd level spell at CL3. You proposed improved ring would be a 4th level spell at CL7, so multiply 20000*28/6 = 93333gp. Round up to 95k and it seems about right.
Given a level 10 ninja can gain a closely related trick (invisible blade), I'd wait until a significantly higher level to hand over such a ring. It's one of the ninja's trademark abilities, basically a demicapstone.
Either way, such a ring has the potential to be completely overpowered in some encounters (bunch of mindless foes wait to be slaughtered) and completely useless in others (one opponent - with blindsight). So if I had to deal with the item, I'd design the encounters around it - give the rogue some easy prey, but make sure at least one important foe can see through invisibility. A spell like glitterdust might be most effective, while purge invisibility at least makes the rogue spend a round of panic on reactivating their ring.
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One of my players, running a Rogue, is interested in a Ring of Improved Invisibility. What would be the base cost and caster level? I honestly have tried figuring this out before, but always came up with different results.
Gallant Armor's calculations of 224,000 gold is both accurate and relevant.
Heaven forbid there involves a quest to throw one of these rings into a certain volcano in a certain mountain that takes over 3 movies and two separate iterations to accomplish...
Well, the Reign of Winter campaign should go up to 18th level, assuming that the short adventure I tacked on (Witchwar Legacy) takes them up a level. So, it's feasible that with crafting, the Rogue might actually be able to get her hands on this. 224k base price sounds reasonable given the raw power of the Ring.
It's an example of the sort of item that "should not exist", in the same sense that tentacular horrors from beyond the pale "should not exist".
If an item of continuous improved invisibility existed, it would be a major artifact, like the hand or eye of Vecna, requiring great sacrifice and little by little subverting the will of its bearer. Or was that the Head of Vecna?
Or it belongs to the formerly dead back returned to unlife fallen god-like wizard who created all the evil in the world at the knees of his former master, and saved a special helping of evil pie for the dolt foolish enough to imagine he can wield such power without adverse consequences.
So I suggest you let the player commission this item for 224,000 gp, but also let him come to the dawning realisation that not only do a lot of people want to take it away from him, but that using it for himself also has consequences he can soon no longer bear.
Wouldn't that be fun?
It's an example of the sort of item that "should not exist", in the same sense that tentacular horrors from beyond the pale "should not exist".
If an item of continuous improved invisibility existed, it would be a major artifact, like the hand or eye of Vecna, requiring great sacrifice and little by little subverting the will of its bearer. Or was that the Head of Vecna?
Or it belongs to the formerly dead back returned to unlife fallen god-like wizard who created all the evil in the world at the knees of his former master, and saved a special helping of evil pie for the dolt foolish enough to imagine he can wield such power without adverse consequences.
So I suggest you let the player commission this item for 224,000 gp, but also let him come to the dawning realisation that not only do a lot of people want to take it away from him, but that using it for himself also has consequences he can soon no longer bear.
Wouldn't that be fun?
No, it wouldn't. I am not that dishonorable. If a high level character wants a potent magic item, and PAYS for it, then by Arneson and Gygax, that character gets it.
I mean, you can use the magic item creation rules to find the cost of creating a ring that puts you constantly sunder the effect of "True Strike". It's just that you shouldn't, unless you want this to be a macguffin or carry some kind of horrific curse.
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No, it wouldn't. I am not that dishonorable. If a high level character wants a potent magic item, and PAYS for it, then by Arneson and Gygax, that character gets it.It's an example of the sort of item that "should not exist", in the same sense that tentacular horrors from beyond the pale "should not exist".
If an item of continuous improved invisibility existed, it would be a major artifact, like the hand or eye of Vecna, requiring great sacrifice and little by little subverting the will of its bearer. Or was that the Head of Vecna?
Or it belongs to the formerly dead back returned to unlife fallen god-like wizard who created all the evil in the world at the knees of his former master, and saved a special helping of evil pie for the dolt foolish enough to imagine he can wield such power without adverse consequences.
So I suggest you let the player commission this item for 224,000 gp, but also let him come to the dawning realisation that not only do a lot of people want to take it away from him, but that using it for himself also has consequences he can soon no longer bear.
Wouldn't that be fun?
Last time I made one of these rings, a bunch of halflings stole it, and one of them threw it into a volcano. It pretty much ended the whole campaign.
No, it wouldn't. I am not that dishonorable. If a high level character wants a potent magic item, and PAYS for it, then by Arneson and Gygax, that character gets it.It's an example of the sort of item that "should not exist", in the same sense that tentacular horrors from beyond the pale "should not exist".
If an item of continuous improved invisibility existed, it would be a major artifact, like the hand or eye of Vecna, requiring great sacrifice and little by little subverting the will of its bearer. Or was that the Head of Vecna?
Or it belongs to the formerly dead back returned to unlife fallen god-like wizard who created all the evil in the world at the knees of his former master, and saved a special helping of evil pie for the dolt foolish enough to imagine he can wield such power without adverse consequences.
So I suggest you let the player commission this item for 224,000 gp, but also let him come to the dawning realisation that not only do a lot of people want to take it away from him, but that using it for himself also has consequences he can soon no longer bear.
Wouldn't that be fun?
You may grow to regret that position, especially if you're letting them just research and create whatever magic item.
^ a GM has all of the power. What is there to regret? You can equip the enemies with the same magic items or even better ones if some sort of insane abuse comes from it.
Most people dislike power level arms race in their games, or dealing with a campaign derailed from unintended and unforseen consequences of a magic item.
Also GM's should always be prepared for the PC's to get whatever magic you equip their enemies with.
A Ninja, at level ten, can turn Greater-Invisible as a Swift action for ten rounds at at time, up to about ten times per day. If a Ninja got a regular 20,000gp ring of invisibility, and just used the Invisible Blade trick when ready to attack, they'd be permanently invisible for all practical purposes.
So if you don't think that's overpowered, I don't see that the cost should be so high that it's impossible to get for a regular rogue before level 17 or so.
(Actually, whether or not it's overpowered probably depends massively on the types of enemies you're fighting. If the enemies can't see invisible, they're often practically helpless. If they can, the ability is worthless.)
A Ninja, at level ten, can turn Greater-Invisible as a Swift action for ten rounds at at time, up to about ten times per day. If a Ninja got a regular 20,000gp ring of invisibility, and just used the Invisible Blade trick when ready to attack, they'd be permanently invisible for all practical purposes.
So if you don't think that's overpowered, I don't see that the cost should be so high that it's impossible to get for a regular rogue before level 17 or so.
(Actually, whether or not it's overpowered probably depends massively on the types of enemies you're fighting. If the enemies can't see invisible, they're often practically helpless. If they can, the ability is worthless.)
I'd argue that there's a difference between "this class" can do a thing and "any class with enough gold" can do a thing. I'm not exactly convinced itd be broken on a rogue. So much of their combat balance rotates around sneak attack they need to be forcing it any way they can and well played will usually get it. For other classes its just kind of scary gravy. Casters in particular would love this item and probably be more of a problem
A Wizard could get a 20,000gp Ring of Invisibility, then cast Greater Invisibility as a Quickened Spell at the start of combat with a 75,500gp Rod. So I doubt they'd spend 224,000gp on this ring either.
ok thats one combat, how many greater invisibilities is the wizard going to memorize?
32,000gp to buy two Pearls of Power and cast it quickened three times a day from a single spell slot - most people don't fight more than three seriously dangerous encounters a day. That brings the cost up to 127,500gp.
Which might be about right for this ring.
"most people dont fight more than X"
Your campaign doesnt fight more than three dangerous encounters a day. The evidence doesn't exist to claim most people.
I feel like "no one table's anecdotes are really indicative of anything" is a maxim that should be more widely understood.
I mean, in my experience a day with more than 0 but fewer than 5 serious fights is extremely rare once anybody can cast greater invisibility. Plus "always on invisibility" completely trivializes those fights which, while not dangerous, are still supposed to require some expenditure of resources.
We could take the "x pearls of power and a quicken rod" argument to make the "Ring of continuous true strike" seem reasonable, which it obviously is not.
I feel like "no one table's anecdotes are really indicative of anything" is a maxim that should be more widely understood.
I mean, in my experience a day with more than 0 but fewer than 5 serious fights is extremely rare once anybody can cast greater invisibility. Plus "always on invisibility" completely trivializes those fights which, while not dangerous, are still supposed to require some expenditure of resources.
We could take the "x pearls of power and a quicken rod" argument to make the "Ring of continuous true strike" seem reasonable, which it obviously is not.
I also kind of hate the assumption that these are just things you're guaranteed to have. I get you can take craft wondrous, but a pearl of power for fourth level or quicken metamagic rod by RAW exists to be purchased when its randomly rolled. Their base value is higher than the 75% chance of the largest cities to have an item in stock. By RAW you have to luck into them being in the 1 to 4d4 medium items or 1-3d4 major items in the case of a standard quicken rod.
I guess blame the books for giving people the idea that pricing magic items is a science- that since there's a formula we should be able to plug any spell in and get a valid magic item. The reason that magic item pricing is an art and not a science is that it doesn't work this well, since sometimes you get something seriously over-priced and sometimes you get a modest price on an item that simply should not exist.
So the question that keeps all the continuous true strike rings and the like from existing is the GM seriously considering "how much of a headache is this going to be when it starts getting used in every single scene". If the rogue's gonna go around just ganking everybody in sight, you're going to have to start seeding the world with things that can see invisibility (7th level Occultists as far as the eye can see!) and we've now wasted everybody's time and GP.
Whereas tactics for landing sneak attacks reliably like "having a flanking partner" or "getting swift action feinting" or "asking the wizard nicely" are not likely to cause any issues. Honestly the most concerning thing about the "ring of continuous greater invisibility" is that it becomes a literal Ring of Gyges which ruins more than just combat.
The irony of course being that theorycrafting tiers and complaints of power balance regularly fall back on "narrative power". Then use combat balance to determine if a thing is balanced, ignoring its narrative effect.