|
I mean you didn't really deconstruct the one point. As I said earlier there is a significantly large enough gap in scenario difficulty in that it gets kind of aggravating and given that he named one scenario which is pretty common in coming close to TPKing people its easy to see how you need to min-max.Guess my post deconstructing each individual point of the OP doesn't count as a response huh?
I'm also very curious why you haven't sought out a home game if you dislike PFS so much?
Weird how we don't see mostly wizards and archers given all that need to min/max and be super powerful for scenarios isn't it?
Creating a competent character that is decent help in combat =/ minmaxing.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
ChaosTicket, how can we help you?
You obviously have grievances, whether perceived or real. You obviously aren't accepting what we're telling you.
What can we as a community do to improve your PFS experience?
I *assume* you wouldn't be posting here if you weren't seeking help or advice.
|
|
Chaos Ticket,
I'll ask once more because I'm genuinely curious. If you truly dislike PFS so much why do you continue to play it over a homebrew game? One where you could have access to all those mechanics that you complain PFS lacks which makes it impossible for you to enjoy?
Alternatively, if PFS is truly so flawed then surely you could find plenty of likeminded people to set up a game of your own with. Perhaps even using PFS scenarios, but your preferred rules.
Chaos Ticket,
I'll ask once more because I'm genuinely curious. If you truly dislike PFS so much why do you continue to play it over a homebrew game? One where you could have access to all those mechanics that you complain PFS lacks which makes it impossible for you to enjoy?
Alternatively, if PFS is truly so flawed then surely you could find plenty of likeminded people to set up a game of your own with. Perhaps even using PFS scenarios, but your preferred rules.
Because there arent any Pathfinder Homebrews available. Believe me Ive looked. I have tried to find groups online, but they have no answers.
ChaosTicket, how can we help you?
You obviously have grievances, whether perceived or real. You obviously aren't accepting what we're telling you.
What can we as a community do to improve your PFS experience?
I *assume* you wouldn't be posting here if you weren't seeking help or advice.
I already either have some the answers. Then its about finding out what is possible in the Society.
I need high incomes of gold and/or prestige. I need 5450 gold in the bank at all times to have Raise Dead cast on me, another 1700 gold for a Scroll of Restoration, and a party Cleric. Survival of total party wipes is essential to progressing to a higher level.
I know my grievance to the Pathfinder Society are that its rules are directly to increase the overall threat by removing important features like the Leadership and Crafting Feats. You can still technically buy anything but lack the income methods and options to basically reduce death to a slap on the wrist.
|
|
Because there arent any Pathfinder Homebrews available. Believe me Ive looked. I have tried to find groups online, but they have no answers.Chaos Ticket,
I'll ask once more because I'm genuinely curious. If you truly dislike PFS so much why do you continue to play it over a homebrew game? One where you could have access to all those mechanics that you complain PFS lacks which makes it impossible for you to enjoy?
Alternatively, if PFS is truly so flawed then surely you could find plenty of likeminded people to set up a game of your own with. Perhaps even using PFS scenarios, but your preferred rules.
When you say you've tried to find groups online do you mean online games? Or you've tried finding IRL games online?
Because if you're willing to play online I just found a treasure trove of games for you to look through on Roll20.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What is the point of playing if there is no risk of failure? Half of your grievances are just wanting to always have a way back from death.
If you want a level 20 character sheet and don't want to risk permanent death along the way, just write up a few level 20 character sheets. You get what you want, and you avoid all of the risk you are so worried about.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was at a convention this weekend.
I played three very different characters in Pathfinder Society Play.
Two of the characters were 'playing up' in difficult and complicated scenarios.
Yet despite this, I was still able to contribute in character, people on my team respected that I had my limitations in comparison to their capabilities, and in all cases the table had a lot of fun.
Setting arbitrary imaginary limits that demand adjustments to the campaign that are not only unnecessary, but worthless as they do not change the dynamic.
Perhaps a careful moment of introspection into one's own activity in contrast to party activities is in order.
Tealdeer: Bring fun for everyone at the table, be someone enjoyable to play with, and know one's weaknesses and LET THE PARTY KNOW THEM.
EDIT: If the party gives you fixes for those in-scenario, USE THEM.
Contributor
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm playing in my first-ever play-by-post right now. Despite playing a 1st-level character without even a single scenario's worth of resources, I'm still managing to hold my own alongside and contribute to the efforts of a group of 4th- and 5th-level characters.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The thread title should be changed from Why cant I make progress in Pathfinder Society to Why cant Pathfinder Society change to suit me better. The answer is obvious. It can’t. OP needs to focus on making changes to himself not to PFS. Modify your expectations, make some internal changes and have fun or move along. Posting the same thread every month isn’t helping things.
|
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
|
Can't you find some people from your lodge to form a home group? I know in my lodge at least two home groups have formed because they met at PFS.
If you really can't find people to join for a home group, that could be because of several reasons:
- Maybe you don't look hard enough. I've seen people hang out in local game shops and getting referrals, for instance.
- People simply don't have time. But they at least have time to visit PFS night, so maybe you can convince people to leave PFS night for a home game.
- You live in an isolated place and there simply aren't enough people around.
- Maybe the problem is you. People might not invite you because you have a weird attitude and don't want to bring that into their home game. I don't mean this as a personal insult, but from what I can infer from your posting, if you're this demanding at game night, I might not want to have you in my home game. A guy at my lodge has the same issue. He keeps wondering why he doesn't get invited for private games, but he's simply too much to handle. He's a good guy and he means well, but he can be overbearing. I'm not saying you're in the same boat, but if everyone is disagreeing with you, maybe they're not the ones at fault.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
|
One easy way to see if there's more games in your area is to search Warhorn. Usually PFS lodges will host there.
Haha, funny that nobody address any of the game flaws I bring up.
Because they're not flaws, but rather different (and often reasonable) expectations.
If party composition concerns you, then make multiple characters and switch them based on who else you're playing with.
If you're having trouble finding a good GM or group, then maybe consider starting one yourself? Or get into online PFS games.
|
|
ChaosTicket, how can we help you?I need high incomes of gold and/or prestige. I need 5450 gold in the bank at all times to have Raise Dead cast on me, another 1700 gold for a Scroll of Restoration, and a party Cleric.
Okay. Here's my advice:
What you want is achievable, but it's going to take time and effort to pull off.
GM.
I have several characters that I didn't begin playing until 3rd, 5th and even 8th level. Spellcasters that I felt were too squishy. Characters with key class features that didn't come online until 4th level. Or melee builds that needed an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Most of my characters started above 1st level, in fact. Only recently have I really been playing at 1st level, and only because I wanted to playtest classes or builds I've never done before. That ~1500gp bump really helps get a character going. I totally get where you're coming from.
As a side benefit, maybe you'll see from the games that you run that PFS isn't as difficult or deadly as you seem to believe. I know I've been pleasantly surprised that a party of 6 casters was able to survive a melee heavy scenario, a party of Charisma 7-10 characters socialized through a dinner, and an ill equipped party was able to survive a deadly incorporeal boss by solely using items supplied in the scenario itself.
Would this help solve your problem?
|
|
GMing also helps a character recover from the financial setback of a death.
One of my characters (my Life Oracle, ironically) died three times during their career. That's roughly 20k down the drain. More, actually, because the gear I had to eventually sell was sold at half price. It was painful.
To recover, I GMed modules. Modules have a three level tier. The gold rewards for, say, a 5th level character playing in a Tier 4-6 are slightly subpar, but that same amount of gold is above the wealth curve for a 4th level character.
Applying a couple levels of Module credit in that way can give you a real boost.
|
|
Next, GM a Tier 2-4 Module. Emerald Spire can be run in 4-5 hours. That gets you a whopping 4800gp 3711gp.
In as little as a day you suddenly have a 3rd level character with over 6000gp 5000gp at their disposal.
EDIT: sorry, was off a little on the amounts.
GMing a Tier 3-5 Module then earns you another 4800gp, so with just a little investment you now have a 4th level character with roughly 10,000gp and 12pp, plenty for a "rainy day fund".
|
Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
|
I need high incomes of gold and/or prestige.
You will want to avoid playing APs, modules or Free RPG Day modules then. They give less than the maximum prestige.
I need 5450 gold in the bank at all times to have Raise Dead cast on me, another 1700 gold for a Scroll of Restoration, and a party Cleric.
Actually, this may well be one of your errors.
Spending about 3K on a magical or adamantine weapon may prevent a death. Spending 2 pp on a potion of fly or oil of daylight can also save you from death.
Yes, you should build up a reserve, but doing it as quickly as possible is more likely to get you killed because you didn’t have the right equipment to handle the threats.
A serious flaw is how credits work. Most scenarios can only be played once per player. You only get the benefit if you are in level of the scenario. Too low or too high and you can only use pregenerated characters, which still means you have to level up in the between levels.
Its part of why the players, scenarios and characters keep changing. The GMs have to try completely unknown scenarios so every player will be rewarded.
Its not like a homebrew where unless you die every challenge will be rewarding with gold, experience, and equipment.
My personal issue is that removes the purpose of the challenges and condenses each scenario to a Primary and Secondary objective. Everything else is filler.
Thats worse if the player makes a character that has to wait to even function. Dexterity characters need Agile equipment. Casters need spells per day. Skillmonkeys need enough skills to have a variety. There are Pathfinder problems with early game difficulties.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thats worse if the player makes a character that has to wait to even function. Dexterity characters need Agile equipment. Casters need spells per day. Skillmonkeys need enough skills to have a variety. There are Pathfinder problems with early game difficulties.
You expect a PC to be super-competent at everything the class has to offer as a starting adventurer? D&D and it's offspring, including Pathfinder, have never been like this. It's part of their core conceit - taking a character from Zero to Hero for over 40 years. That's not going to change now.
|
|
I don’t see why these threads Dont get locked quicker. OP does not like PFS and thinks it should change to suit him. That’s not going to happen. OP can’t find a home game to play in most likely due to personality traits clearly evident in this thread and many others. OP is frustrated and comes to the boards to complain while pointedly ignoring well intentioned advice. Ad nauseum.....
And why are the Society rules based around keeping people from growing faster to get out of the level tiers? There are ways to avoid those problems, but they are banned, or scenario dependent.
In a homebrew I know thee are noncombat quests so skillmonkeys and other weak starters can a
In that case its very important on what scenario the GM chooses.
|
|
Everything else isfillerfun.Fixed that for you. I know how annoying iOS autocorrect can be.
With all seriousness--not dismissively--the game that matches your expectations is called Diablo, either 1, 2, or 3. Go to battlenet and play it co-op online. I think you'll have a blast.
If you've seen many of his posts you see that he wants to be like Skyrim, where he can have it all and do it all and the story is all about him. So you're not far off.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And why are the Society rules based around keeping people from growing faster to get out of the level tiers?In what other game can you gain a level in four hours?
He's often compared Pathfinder with a RPGs and that's where most of his complaints seem to stem from.
Examples:In many RPGS you can kill that sheep/slime/pidgey (first enemy) for hours to be overleveled for the area you're going to next.
In PFS you can't do this since you can't bring a lv10 character to a 1-5 scenario. Also maybe related to this is that you can't have all lv5s and play low tier.
In Many RPGS you can sit and grind to get lots of money, thus you can buy all of the best gear as soon as it's offered in shops. Thus you have the best gear often making you far stronger than expected for the game.
Both of these are about trivializing the game by trading hours of life for better stats. Chaos has often complained that you can't do this in PFS. That in PFS you can't go and play extra scenarios for no EXP to get more PP and GP then expected, nor that you can go and power level and then go play the easy scenarios when you're out of their expected level range.
Also part of many RPGs is very cheap and meaningless death. Dying in most games is a very minor setback. Lose some of your on hand change(that is farmable) and be like 5 minutes from where you were. Some games have no real penalty for death, you die and you just start that fight over no loss of anything (sometimes you even get a temp buff).
These are all things that ChaosTicket has advertised as wanting from PFS and he's upset that he can't.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because thats how pathfinder works. You want to be a world conquering baddass you have to earn it from the bottom up. Cut your teeth on a nice starter hamlet or something.
"To be murderhoboed or not to be murderhoboed, that is the que--gurk!"
-Starter Hamlet
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
...or throw dice into a sea of troubles
and by opposing checks, end them...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or how a goodly chunk of folks get this 'Must have Tank/Heals/DPS' mindset from a certain major MMO...
Nothing wrong with the terms (Meat shield has been in use since collecovision at least) but insisting on setting your party up like that just doesn't work in pathfinder, much less society. Video games work like this because RPG games used to work like this. Not the other way around.
Being built with a high AC to stand in between the bad guys and the squishies assumes that the bad guys can't walk around you and that the squishies are willing to stay behind you. Thats not going to happen in most pathfinder groups, much less PFS groups that are crawling with melee. You need one of a few very specific builds to help protect someone else going toe to toe with the bad guys and if you don't use that, your tank is going to feel useless plinking away for 1d8+2 damage while the monster ignores him to tear apart the backstabbing rogue.
The prevailing method of play (meta) is different. Its kill the bad guys quickly, give them fewer rounds, and take less damage that way. Heal up to wands to full hit points, and do it again. Someone trying to operate the old way in this group is going to find it confusing, not contribute effectively, and think the guys are nuts. Combat healing isn't a plan A because you don't generally need it. A cleric can have the party take less damage with support or even damage spells (as dead is a heck of a debuff on the enemy)
And why are the Society rules based around keeping people from growing faster to get out of the level tiers?In what other game can you gain a level in four hours?He's often compared Pathfinder with a RPGs and that's where most of his complaints seem to stem from.
Examples:
In many RPGS you can kill that sheep/slime/pidgey (first enemy) for hours to be overleveled for the area you're going to next.
In PFS you can't do this since you can't bring a lv10 character to a 1-5 scenario. Also maybe related to this is that you can't have all lv5s and play low tier.In Many RPGS you can sit and grind to get lots of money, thus you can buy all of the best gear as soon as it's offered in shops. Thus you have the best gear often making you far stronger than expected for the game.
Both of these are about trivializing the game by trading hours of life for better stats. Chaos has often complained that you can't do this in PFS. That in PFS you can't go and play extra scenarios for no EXP to get more PP and GP then expected, nor that you can go and power level and then go play the easy scenarios when you're out of their expected level range.
Also part of many RPGs is very cheap and meaningless death. Dying in most games is a very minor setback. Lose some of your on hand change(that is farmable) and be like 5 minutes from where you were. Some games have no real penalty for death, you die and you just start that fight over no loss of anything (sometimes you even get a temp buff).
These are all things that ChaosTicket has advertised as wanting from PFS and he's upset that he can't.
Very good point. I want Pathfinder society to be like Pathfinder vanilla/original/proper/etc.
Why is it that people bring up all the instances In Roleplaying Games where they managed to rob people blind, talk their way out of trouble, and make tough enemies into chumps, but when I want to be able to do that something is wrong?
Videogames more often have those features. Roleplaying ones like the Fallout series allow 2-3 options like Fight/Talk/Sneak.
So I dont understand why people want a tabletop Roleplaying game to be poorly streamlined grindfests with no rewards until the end. The options are very much up the scenario, not the players' choice. I keep trying to talk my way out but it hasnt worked yet.
The Society campaign is poorly altered so its not a Videogame or a Roleplaying game. The only things new are the prestige and those are replacements for what people could already do with some clever thinking. Retraining is outright worse as you have to hoard up Prestige points.
=================
What do you want? I want feedback from my actions. I want things to matter. If they dont then speed along to the end so I can get my rewards and wait weeks while waiting for my character to "awaken".
Warriors classes have the best results early on. There is feedback in attacking, hitting, and damaging enemies. Problem is all the later abilities are for the non-warriors because of "LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards". So is it possible to create a character that has 18 strength for low level fighting and 18+ casting stat for later on? If that was possible that would mean I wouldnt have to overthink about making a Cleric or a Druid.
================
Pathfinder has its well known flaws carried over from Dungeons and Dragons. Scaling is erratic and the early levels are deadly. There are ways to make things easier.
Pathfinder Society didnt really fix any of that. It made it worse actually as it takes more work to gain anything, and still throws around overpowered enemies frequently unless you also have overpowered characters.
|
|
And why are the Society rules based around keeping people from growing faster to get out of the level tiers?In what other game can you gain a level in four hours?He's often compared Pathfinder with a RPGs and that's where most of his complaints seem to stem from.
Examples:
In many RPGS you can kill that sheep/slime/pidgey (first enemy) for hours to be overleveled for the area you're going to next.
In PFS you can't do this since you can't bring a lv10 character to a 1-5 scenario. Also maybe related to this is that you can't have all lv5s and play low tier.In Many RPGS you can sit and grind to get lots of money, thus you can buy all of the best gear as soon as it's offered in shops. Thus you have the best gear often making you far stronger than expected for the game.
Both of these are about trivializing the game by trading hours of life for better stats. Chaos has often complained that you can't do this in PFS. That in PFS you can't go and play extra scenarios for no EXP to get more PP and GP then expected, nor that you can go and power level and then go play the easy scenarios when you're out of their expected level range.
Also part of many RPGs is very cheap and meaningless death. Dying in most games is a very minor setback. Lose some of your on hand change(that is farmable) and be like 5 minutes from where you were. Some games have no real penalty for death, you die and you just start that fight over no loss of anything (sometimes you even get a temp buff).
These are all things that ChaosTicket has advertised as wanting from PFS and he's upset that he can't.
Very good point. I want Pathfinder society to be like Pathfinder vanilla/original/proper/etc.
Except that the way you've expressed how you want the game to work is not how vanilla/original/proper/etc. Pathfinder works.
Your descriptions is how video games or computer RPGs like Fallout or Skyrim work.
My answer: Leadership, Crafting, Diplomacy, Stealth, Sleight of Hand
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder has its well known flaws carried over from Dungeons and Dragons. Scaling is erratic and the early levels are deadly. There are ways to make things easier.
Pathfinder Society didnt really fix any of that. It made it worse actually as it takes more work to gain anything, and still throws around overpowered enemies frequently unless you also have overpowered characters.
1) It is not Pathfinder Society's job to "fix" the game system it uses to run its campaign.
2) This is another fallacy. It takes less work to gain things in PFS than standard play. It is largely not overpowered. Sure, there are some challenging encounters, but overall, average powered characters can succeed quite well.
3) I don't know why I keep responding to you. You never actually listen to what anyone actually says in response to your posts.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why is it that people bring up all the instances In Roleplaying Games where they managed to rob people blind, talk their way out of trouble, and make tough enemies into chumps, but when I want to be able to do that something is wrong?
Why do you keep insisting this is impossible in pathfinder society?
We rob..erm. Take possession of valuable treasures all the time. Usually off of corpses. That were totally like that when we got there. The money on your chronicle sheet IS from robbing people blind. It didn't drop out of the air and it's not a check from the society. You can make money in between adventures, thats the dayjob check.
Last convention my oracle talked the big bad into killing himself. I have a character that considers oozes a social encounter. The exchange card goal specifically requires that you talk or negotiate your way out of what is explicitly a combat encounter.
"You can't talk your way out of fights" is not just incorrect, at the number of times you've been shown its wrong its a lie. You are lying when you say this.
Either your group has the same incorrect idea of how stuck on track encounters are, or you have an unreasonable idea of how clever you're being and how much you can solo encounters while the rest of the party watches you be cool.
|
|
Very good point. I want Pathfinder society to be like Pathfinder vanilla/original/proper/etc.And why are the Society rules based around keeping people from growing faster to get out of the level tiers?In what other game can you gain a level in four hours?He's often compared Pathfinder with a RPGs and that's where most of his complaints seem to stem from.
Examples:
In many RPGS you can kill that sheep/slime/pidgey (first enemy) for hours to be overleveled for the area you're going to next.
In PFS you can't do this since you can't bring a lv10 character to a 1-5 scenario. Also maybe related to this is that you can't have all lv5s and play low tier.In Many RPGS you can sit and grind to get lots of money, thus you can buy all of the best gear as soon as it's offered in shops. Thus you have the best gear often making you far stronger than expected for the game.
Both of these are about trivializing the game by trading hours of life for better stats. Chaos has often complained that you can't do this in PFS. That in PFS you can't go and play extra scenarios for no EXP to get more PP and GP then expected, nor that you can go and power level and then go play the easy scenarios when you're out of their expected level range.
Also part of many RPGs is very cheap and meaningless death. Dying in most games is a very minor setback. Lose some of your on hand change(that is farmable) and be like 5 minutes from where you were. Some games have no real penalty for death, you die and you just start that fight over no loss of anything (sometimes you even get a temp buff).
These are all things that ChaosTicket has advertised as wanting from PFS and he's upset that he can't.
Sorry I mistyped, it should have said
These are all things that ChaosTicket has advertised as wanting from Pathfinder the game and he's upset that he can't.