Eldritch Scion Magus - how to use?

[Priyd]

Pretty much the topic. As far as I can tell, magus in general requires quickened spells to function. Eldrich scion is a spontaneous caster with elements of the bloodrager, and applying metamagic to spontaneous requires a full-round action. That means quickening doesn't work. And that intensifying spells, the main gimmick of the magus (intensified shocking grasp weapons) doesn't work.

So how exactly is it supposed to be used properly? Note im not asking for things like "don't do it's a bad idea" Or what have you. Just how it's intended to function.

[Saldiven]

I might have always misunderstood, but I thought Quicken worked fine for spontaneous casters because of the final clause in the Feat:

"Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time."

[David knott 242]

Quicken Spell does work. See the text at the end of the feat:

"Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time."

[Saldiven]

Am super ninja.

[Priyd]

Ah my mistake then. And would that allow for other metamagic to be applied and still cast in a reasonable time frame?

[Dasrak]

You could use a metamagic rod, but that would require you to have an extra hand or a prehensile tail since you also need a free hand for spell combat.

[Priyd]

Rods and wands and the like explicitly state theyre still a full round action for spontaneous casters anyway. Was very disapointed.

[the Queen's Raven]

Why do you need quickened spell to play a magus? The spell combat and spell strike abilities allow you cast and attack as part of the same action. You don't need to quicken anything. Unless I missed an errata somewhere or is this a min/max thing to get more bang for your buck?

[Athaleon]

Magus doesn't require Quickened spells to function, though of course they're always handy. What it does require is that the spell be a Standard Action to be used with Spell Combat, which means that you can't Spell Combat with a metamagic spell as an Eldritch Scion unless it's a spell for which you burned the extra feat on Spontaneous Metafocus.

[BretI]

Eldritch Scion does require different tactics from a normal Magus until level 8.

Until then, you can’t use Spell Combat without spending an Eldritch Pool point (used like Arcane Pool of a normal Magus) every other round.

Advanced Class Guide, pg. 104 wrote:

Spell Combat (Ex): An eldritch scion can use spell combat only while in a state of mystical focus (see eldritch pool, above). At 8th level, an eldritch scion can use spell combat at any time. This ability alters spell combat.

Either you need to pump your Eldritch Pool so you can go into Spell Combat (which also gives you Bloodrager powers) a lot or you ignore Spell Combat.

The other problem is you really don’t have enough skill ranks per level to do much.

Given when Quicken normally comes in, you still wouldn’t be looking for Quicken Spell.

[Priyd]

the way i read it, spell combat allows a standard action spell as a free action while full attacking, and spell strike allows that spell (as long as range = touch) to be used through a weapon strike as a free attack on top of the full attack (with all the associated penalties, but thats fine with good bonuses to hit), and that's awesome. even better, you can apply fun toys like intensify spell or rime spell at no penalties other than a higher spell slot, because you're a prepared caster.

but the eldritch scion is spontaneous. attempting to apply metamagic makes it a full round action, and therefore invalid with spell combat without quicken spell (assuming ive even read that right) or spontaneous metafocus. both of which have serious issues, in that quicken adds FOUR levels to a spell in addition to the other metamagic you're trying to compensate for, and metafocus applies to only one spell per feat taken. which defeats the purpose of a spontaneous caster, which is flexibility and adaptability.

i don't understand how this is supposed to work.

[Cyrad]

You don't need to quicken to play a magus. That being said, the eldritch scion is a really poorly designed archetype.

The biggest problem (aside from having to spend points to spell combat) is that metamagic increases the casting time of spells so you can't use them with spell combat and hurts the action economy of spellstrike. This is bad because typical magus heavily relies on Intensify Spells and Empower Spells in order to make their blast spells scale with level. As a result, you have to play an eldritch scion very differently

[BretI]

Use the spells for Spell Combat without metamagic feats.

Chill Touch, Shield, and many other combat spells work just fine without metamagic feats.

What you can’t do is the Wayang Spellhunter Empowered Shocking Grasp (as an example). There are plenty of other ways to use spells in Spell Combat than that. Rather than Rime Chill Touch, use Vampiric Touch.

Your spell selection will look a little different, but the action economy savings of Spell Combat are still fantastic.

[Priyd]

@breti

interesting advice. ive been mainly looking at damage-dealing spells, and obviously the low level ones cap out early which is why intensify is so attractive.

anyone know a few good spells to use without metamagic at any given level? i imagine debuffs like glitterdust, snowball, and mudball would become more attractive since its harder to boost up the more iconic spells like shocking grasp and chill touch.

[graystone]

Priyd wrote:

snowball

You might want to look up the 'fixed' spell... It's not a debuff anymore.

[BretI]

1st Level
burning hands (for swarms, just to have something)
chill touch
feather fall (defense)
grease (defense against grapplers and chargers, area denial)
magic missile (for incorporeal)
ray of enfeeblement (if you take close range arcana)
vanish (leave without an AoO)

2nd
Bladed Dash (Inner Sea Magic, allows you to move and full attack as part of Spell Combat)
blur or mirror image (defense)
glitterdust
stone call** (creates difficult terrain, area denial)

3rd
daylight (take care of darkness effects)
fly
haste (if your mage isn’t doing it)
ray of exhaustion (if you have close range arcana)
vampiric touch
versatile weapon** as scrolls or a wand
water breathing as scrolls or potions

With the exception of Bladed Dash all of these are pulled straight from the Magus spell list in Ultimate Magic. Bladed Dash is a spell that I would want on any Magus I run— it is that good. Think of it as Pounce for Spell Combat.

[Priyd]

I remember seeing bladed dash mentioned somewhere else.

why is that not a thing for fighters? that should TOTALLY be a thing for fighters. high-level ones maybe, but still, its way too cool to not be a thing. :P

thanks for the spell tips, and ill have to look up the new snowball.

what does the ** mean on stone call and versatile weapon?

EDIT: Snowball no longer forces a stagger save. How disappointing.

[BretI]

Priyd wrote:

what does the ** mean on stone call and versatile weapon?

Sorry, copy & paste from Ultimate Magic. It just means the spell is from the APG.

[Kurald Galain]

This Magus handbook offers lots of options that aren't shocking grasp.

The key to the Eldritch Scion is that a good bloodline offers you several free buff spells whenever you activate your bloodline, which further boosts your action economy. Then use spell combat as often as feasible. The only downside is the lack of skill points, but a number of spells can compensate for that (e.g. scroll of Monkey Fish).