With Starfinder, casters have been dramatically renovated. I'm wondering how they would stand up against the mighty Wizard or Cleric of Pathfinder?
Theory time! A duo duel:
20th level Technomancer and Mystic
vs.
20th level Wizard and Cleric
Preferably this would be a comparison of Core SF vs. Core PF. Any builds will be accepted if you wish to go that route - no third party materials please.
Who do you think would win and why?
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It's not just 9th level spells (though that alone is a huge advantage).
I think a Sorcerer/Technomancer fight could be pretty close to even (assuming TM gets to keep their higher level weapon damage, but sorcerer doesn't), depending on the spells known by each and which item rules you use. There is a pretty large item disparity between the two games that make some of it hard to adjudicate (I mean, how do you determine the two character's AC? which ruleset do you use?). I think how you decide all that other stuff is going to affect who wins in a lot of comparisons.
For cleric and Wizard, specifically, I think the bigger deal is the size of the spell list available to them + the number of spells available per day. Wizards have over twice the number of spells of each level available to pick from in the PF CRB versus the Technomancer list in the SF CRB, and the wizard can literally learn all of the spells. Clerics automatically know all of the spells on their list (and their list is bigger) compared to a Mystic. That is a HUGE strategic advantage even before you get into raw power disparity. They can literally pick any and every spell that helps, while the Mystic/TM is going to be limited to a very short list of spells known from a comparatively short list of knowable spells.
If the PF spellcaster gets to use PF rules for AC, Saves, and conditionals, that huge list is a huge advantage. A wizard/cleric can spend most/all their 1-6th level spell slots on all day (or long duration) buffs and utility spells that make them immune or highly resistant to all the attacks the TM/Mystic could potentially throw at them. Then their high level slots, which they just have a lot more of, are all on spells used for tactically attacking/shutting down their opponent or for giving themselves more actions in combat (to apply more debuffs or BFC or Save or Dies to their opponent).
Wizards, Clerics, and Druids (and Archivists and S2P Erudites) are just broken in d20/PF, in part because of the size of their spell lists and the fact that they can potentially have the most broken spell for any given situation available for them at any given point in time. It's not just that they can cast time stop (or whatever 9th level spell is most broken in your game), it's that they can cast time stop and then also cast the 4 most broken spells for this particular combat because their spellbook/list is so huge and they memorized those spells today.
Unless a high level wizard/cleric gets caught out unprepared (almost always by DM fiat or because the player got lazy), they generally "got this" for any given situation.
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Wizard and Cleric, hands down. The Mystic and Technomancer have literally zero chance of surviving.
Spell DCs vs Saves is the single biggest reason, followed closely by the ability to blast stats into the stratosphere. Slightly behind that is the availability of buffs (dramatically different between the two).
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I think it depends on who gets the first shot, really, since both groups are capable of massive damage. Yes, Pathfinder's 9th-level casters have (much) more powerful spells, but Starfinder's casters have 3/4 BAB and access to Starfinder weapons. Any weapon, given a couple feats. Like the paragon x-gen gun, which deals 9d12 + 20 damage with a single shot. Take a full-round action, and you get 18d12 + 40 damage (before any buffs or class abilities or additional feats). Energy weapons would probably target a Pathfinder caster's touch AC, so you have a decently high chance of hitting in exchange for a bit less damage.
Honestly, I think a soldier is more dangerous to a wizard than a technomancer and might win if she gets the first shot off.
I think it depends on who gets the first shot, really, since both groups are capable of massive damage. Yes, Pathfinder's 9th-level casters have (much) more powerful spells, but Starfinder's casters have 3/4 BAB and access to Starfinder weapons. Any weapon, given a couple feats. Like the paragon x-gen gun, which deals 9d12 + 20 damage with a single shot. Take a full-round action, and you get 18d12 + 40 damage (before any buffs or class abilities or additional feats). Energy weapons would probably target a Pathfinder caster's touch AC, so you have a decently high chance of hitting in exchange for a bit less damage.
Honestly, I think a soldier is more dangerous to a wizard than a technomancer and might win if she gets the first shot off.
While forcing the two systems to interact without any conversion is probably not the way to go, wouldn't this spell completely annihilate the soldier?
While forcing the two systems to interact without any conversion is probably not the way to go, wouldn't this spell completely annihilate the soldier?I think it depends on who gets the first shot, really, since both groups are capable of massive damage. Yes, Pathfinder's 9th-level casters have (much) more powerful spells, but Starfinder's casters have 3/4 BAB and access to Starfinder weapons. Any weapon, given a couple feats. Like the paragon x-gen gun, which deals 9d12 + 20 damage with a single shot. Take a full-round action, and you get 18d12 + 40 damage (before any buffs or class abilities or additional feats). Energy weapons would probably target a Pathfinder caster's touch AC, so you have a decently high chance of hitting in exchange for a bit less damage.
Honestly, I think a soldier is more dangerous to a wizard than a technomancer and might win if she gets the first shot off.
That's kind of the point! How would it look if we did force interaction between PF and SF. It's obviously not balanced for every day play, but as a curiosity it shows the differences between the systems in an interesting way.
As for Winds of Vengeance, I wonder if energy weapons would count for that, as wind doesn't really affect lasers/light based weapons. Otherwise, yes.
And, as written, it would deflect ballistic starship weapons, missiles, and even nukes.
Yes, Pathfinder's 9th-level casters have (much) more powerful spells, but Starfinder's casters have 3/4 BAB and access to Starfinder weapons.
I think this really depends (a lot) on how the bonus rules work, though.
Even a full BAB class like soldier has a total attack bonus of like 30? 35 maybe? barring circumstance (BAB 20 + Dex/Str 9 + Weapon Focus 1, I can't think of anything else that's universal). It's not unusual for high level wizards/druids/clerics I build to have AC's well into the 50s or 60s (and also be immune to crits, and also have multiple miss chances, and also energy resistances or immunities, and also...you get the idea).
This whole thing is weird. I know it looks like these two games are similar, but they're really not. Once they changed the underlying bonus system, any way to compare characters or monsters between the two systems went out the window.
This whole thing is weird.
Hence, interesting!
Yeah, I think it's interesting, too. I just mean that it has variables that make it difficult to adjudicate arbitrarily. It's like trying to compare a really good boxer with a really good greco-roman wrestler. The answer to who would win in a fairly adjudicated match depends a lot on the rules for the match.
What is the difference between a lvl6 vs lvl9 wish Spell? You get access to it at an earlier level if you are a SF caster. But unless I missed something they are the same. It's a little more complicated then "9 is greater than 6 so 9 is obviously better."
One variable that wasn't mentioned is the possible shock of seeing technology as a wizard. Imagine being from the Middle Ages and all of a sudden seeing all this crazy tech. I mean even a lvl20 wizard would freak out a bit. To put this in context, I went to Japan last year and freaked out because even their truck stops have digital toilets. Like how?! I'm afraid of even walking into a public bathroom in the states and Japanese truck drivers are living like kings.
A 20th lvl Technomancers has a ship that fires 20d12 x10 environmental damage shots from Orbit. The Technomancer wins.
Like Bluenose said, you can't target people, and at best function as hazards. Though, hazard damage from a 20th level source can still do ridiculous damage, but a wizard with high saves and AC can greatly diminish the ship's effectiveness.
I'm not sure what's stopping the wizard from teleporting next to the ship and blitzing it with timestop and disintegrate spells. Likewise the wizard could hit it with rebuke technology and render the ship useless for at least 20 rounds.
Since wish is mentioned, wish is a capstone ability for the technomancer, while a wizard can learn it as early as 17th level. Plus, the Pathfinder version of wish can do a lot more things without asking for the GM's permission.
Actual 9th level casters would win, hands down. They get better spells.
This is intentional, Starfinder has lowered the ceiling on power level intentionally.
That's why I mentioned timestop. A ship is not outpacing a wizard during timestop.
That's why I mentioned timestop. A ship is not outpacing a wizard during timestop.True, three or so rounds of disintegrate will probably ruin a space ship. I guess it comes down to whether we consider a piloted ship as being in the Technomancer's possession.
A GM could rule that it is, even though he isn't actually carrying it around with him. Maybe.
In any case, if the Wizard has knowledge of who he is facing, he best have a good will save or the technomancer may find himself teleported into a star's corona
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
That's why I mentioned timestop. A ship is not outpacing a wizard during timestop.True, three or so rounds of disintegrate will probably ruin a space ship. I guess it comes down to whether we consider a piloted ship as being in the Technomancer's possession.A GM could rule that it is, even though he isn't actually carrying it around with him. Maybe.
In any case, if the Wizard has knowledge of who he is facing, he best have a good will save or the technomancer may find himself teleported into a star's corona
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.I suppose if we are bringing Wish into it then it really comes down to who becomes aware of the other first. So likely whomever wins initiative wins.
Although really it all comes down to circumstance. Do each get ideal setups? If so Wizard. If not Technomancer. After all 25,000g of specific component isn't an assumed part of being a lvl 20 wizard, while a spaceship is for the Technomancer.
This version of wish is only for Wiz/Sorc while the technomancer's has no such ability (unless the GM okays it).
A 25,000 GP item could easily be assumed to be apart of his equipment, since it's a trivial amount versus the WBL for a 20th level character.
I may be mistaken, but doesn't such a ship belong to a 20th level party, not just a lone 20th level? If anything, he may be out of such a powerful ship way before the Wizard is assumed to not have a gem for wish. He'll probably still have a ship, just not a 20th tier monster, lol. I forget how the game handles that, I'll have to check if no one else knows.
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Wait....what? Why the heck would you say a spaceship is considered part of the Technomancer?
The party definitely gets a spaceship, but it no more belongs to the technomancer than the party soldier or other character.
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Nah, I don't agree at all.
Or else we have to start allowing a infinite number of simulacrums of the wizard to participate in the combat too. And all the other creatures the wizard can potentially call and bind (free of charge even).
Don't include the Starship. It's not a technomancer mechanic, it's just a mechanic for playing Starfinder RPG in general. It's not a valid point of comparison for the two classes.
The only thing that I don't like about including the starship is that it kinda relies on GM fiat. Like, does a starship use hazard attacks or trap damage (environmental hazard). Do we choose to include a save or is it a direct attack? I guess we just have to choose what makes sense.
Anyway, a level 19 hazard attack has a static +31 attack and deals 23d10, and CR 19 environmental hazards has a +34 attack, a save DC of 26, and deals 16d12+60 damage. You can check it out on the StarfinderSRD under vehicle rules and trap rules. I'm also using trap rules since they're called out as "environmental hazards" and the rules given in the starship section say to use "deadly hazards," which is seemingly the same thing.
Anyway, if said wizard can gain over 60 AC, as someone mentioned above, along with good saves, and maybe evasion, the ship will have a very tough time winning the fight all on its own.
Alternatively, the wizard can sit in a prismatic sphere and wait for the technomancer to change strategies or engage the ship if the technomancer does not.
Honestly, I feel like the wizard has too many options and probably the reason magic only goes to 6th level in Starfinder.
All of this relies on GM Fiat.
Otherwise the wizard can say, "How is he targeting me in the Pocket Dimension I live in? When I leave the pocket dimension, I always leave fully buffed and immediately greater teleport exactly where I intend to be. Assuming he knows all this and still targets me (at my destination? somehow), he has to get through my prismatic sphere and also I have a contingent getaway if I'm 'attacked from orbit'." as a response.
I think that was his point.
Side Note: I actually did have a contingent teleport if 'attacked from orbit' for one high level wizard, because that actually happened.
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Otherwise the wizard can say, "How is he targeting me in the Pocket Dimension I live in? When I leave the pocket dimension, I always leave fully buffed and immediately greater teleport exactly where I intend to be. Assuming he knows all this and still targets me (at my destination? somehow), he has to get through my prismatic sphere and also I have a contingent getaway if I'm 'attacked from orbit'." as a response.
And the obvious answer to that is that the technomancer entered the drift and accidentally ripped the wizard's pocket dimension into Driftspace. Which also explains why the technomancer has a ship on hand.
Which, if that works, calls into question just how many bags of holding have had their contents spilled out into the drift, but I digress.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was referring to the Create Demiplane spell (I just always call them pocket dimensions, for some reason, I think I'm confusing it with another game), which last I checked could be free for the wizard in question, and I don't think you can plane shift into them depending on how your DM rules the attunement of the focus item for plane shift works. But that wasn't my point.
I'm not claiming Wizard supremacy. I'm continuing to claim what I said in the beginning, that it massively depends on which underlying rules you use.
The AC, Attack, Damage, Health, Disease, Poison, Conditions, Magic, Save, Wealth By level, Equipment, Feat, and Skill rules all changed between the two games. Which character wins depends entirely on which rules you use. It affects what they can do in the first place.
This thread may as well compare Chess based Knights and how strong they are at farming in Settlers of Catan.