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Guide to the Outflanking Hunter
Been working on this guide for the past few days. It's still a work in progress and open to suggestions.
Yeah- I had similar thoughts on animal companion selection when you are flank focused.
Because the companion will often spend its time moving to flank position, it might be better to have one solid hit. Additionally, this solid hit would also translate to any AoO shenanigans. The full attack damage doesn't lag that far behind either when you account for the extra iterative style attack from multiattack.
The basic wolf is a fine selection for this purpose. They have a single natural attack, and they can trip. Additionally, they can grow to large and get 21 base str.
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Good to see people making new guides.
You need gang up, pack flanking something pair oppertunist requires you to be adjecent. Improved outflank is worth writing about.
Twf with no Dex to damage is not optimal. You have more chances at crits but you trading real damge now for possible damage later that requires you to confirm
More attacks are still better than one for an animal companion because you still have full to full attack and 3 attacks are 3x more likely to crit 5 are better still. Remember the feats work both way the more the animal companion hits the more it crits it gets the more attack you take.
Consider recommending and ioun stone (1500gp) and a fauchard. Fortuitious weapon enhancments could be included. A long with menacing.
Consider how to actually get aoo out of trips and grabs. They are both good but not for the reason you state. They make thing easier to hit and make you harder to hit. You need feat take take time to get a lot of aoos out for tripping and grapples don't really ever give aoos.
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Yeah- I had similar thoughts on animal companion selection when you are flank focused.
Because the companion will often spend its time moving to flank position, it might be better to have one solid hit.
Help me get into this mind set.
Half-orc should be a purple-colored race. Why? Because you can dip barbarian two levels for Ferocious Beast rage power, and then share Amplified Rage feat benefits via Hunter's Tactics.
(This is particularly good as multiclass groundwork for the Mammoth Rider prestige class.)
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Half-orc should be a purple-colored race. Why? Because you can dip barbarian two levels for Ferocious Beast rage power, and then share Amplified Rage feat benefits via Hunter's Tactics.
(This is particularly good as multiclass groundwork for the Mammoth Rider prestige class.)
Why must you go around sharing all of my barbarian secrets! How are my barb 1 martial class X going to be magically superior to everyone when you go left and right telling people how awesome a dip and extra rage feat are, or a dip into savage technologist, or pulling off amplified rage shenanigans (personal favorite is the valet familiar from eldritch fighter 2 and sharing sympathtic rage so the familiar rages thus triggering amplified rage for self. Fighting Frenzy works well with it too).
BTWs, using a badger prevents the need for the rage power. ;)
Yeah- I had similar thoughts on animal companion selection when you are flank focused.
Because the companion will often spend its time moving to flank position, it might be better to have one solid hit.
Help me get into this mind set.
Builds around pack flanking there is no getting around.
I'll also admit that my thinking was more geared towards non-hunter classes with animal companions- the ones that don't get to share teamwork feats, and the AC has to take the feat itself (which makes it even harder to meet the int prereqs). As such, it was not a feat that was on my radar very much.
*speed would actually be relevant for that kind of build. Under the assumption 'we have to be on opposite sides', one of the two characters have to spend more time moving around in order to get into position.
oppertunist requires you to be adjecent.
That means it doesn't work with mounted combat, right? I'll have to fix that.
Improved outflank is worth writing about.
It's a third party feat. I can mention it.
Twf with no Dex to damage is not optimal. You have more chances at crits but you trading real damge now for possible damage later that requires you to confirm
More attacks are still better than one for an animal companion because you still have full to full attack and 3 attacks are 3x more likely to crit 5 are better still. Remember the feats work both way the more the animal companion hits the more it crits it gets the more attack you take.
If I understand what you just said, two weapon fighting is bad because more chances to crit is not worth the loss in damage, but multiple attacks on the animal companion are better even though they do less damage?
I get that the feats work both ways, but we should have a 18-20 crit weapon, or a 19-20 crit weapon. We should have more crit chances. I did mention that if you find a way to increase the animal companion's crit chance multiple attack forms could be better.
Consider how to actually get aoo out of trips and grabs. They are both good but not for the reason you state. They make thing easier to hit and make you harder to hit. You need feat take take time to get a lot of aoos out for tripping and grapples don't really ever give aoos.
Tripping provokes an attack of opportunity when the target tries to stand up. That's what I was referring to. I will revise this section and call them battlefield control.
I'd also argue that Eye for Talent is not as good as a feat. I'd much rather have the pet take Combat Reflexes at level one, then something like Power Attack at 2 then boost their Int to 3 at level four. Especially since you already get the ability to give an enh bonus to the pet's str or dex
Some animal companions only have 1 int. Even if you don't want to buff int you can buff their strength raising damage by 1.5 and attack by 1. This would take two feats to accomplish. -Yeah it's arguable.
I will add some more to the multiclass section based on the suggestions.
Thanks for the feedback!
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Thanks lemeres.
Pack Flanking can be a bit of a pain. Gang up works well for a lot of groups but has the same req. Improved out flank is a little weird but it works decently. Once your run the patterns it works better for non-reach builds.
Wild child brawler should be mentioned in the guide. Brawlers in general should be included on demand teamwork feats are pretty powerful.
Longstrider really helps movement issues as well this includes playing small characters.
Snap flanking is good once you can get it though it is a pretty high level feat.
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oppertunist requires you to be adjecent.That means it doesn't work with mounted combat, right? I'll have to fix that.
Improved outflank is worth writing about.It's a third party feat. I can mention it.
If I understand what you just said, two weapon fighting is bad because more chances to crit is not worth the loss in damage, but multiple attacks on the animal companion are better even though they do less damage?Twf with no Dex to damage is not optimal. You have more chances at crits but you trading real damge now for possible damage later that requires you to confirm
More attacks are still better than one for an animal companion because you still have full to full attack and 3 attacks are 3x more likely to crit 5 are better still. Remember the feats work both way the more the animal companion hits the more it crits it gets the more attack you take.
TWF with not dex to damage does virtually no damage depending on the point buy. A multi-attack animal companion does less per hit more has more hit per round. The DPR is higher.
Trade 1 is from good 2 hand damage > basically no damage. Hope to crit then hope to confirm. THen the animal has to hit to do damage. That's 3d20 rolls to do damage.
Trade 2 is slightly less damage on the outflank/pair opportunist attacks but more damage and more crit chances when you include the full attack.
Does that clear up my position?
Hunters don't have sneak attack or other damage booster to help keep the damage up.
I get that the feats work both ways, but we should have a 18-20 crit weapon, or a 19-20 crit weapon. We should have more crit chances. I did mention that if you find a way to increase the animal companion's crit chance multiple attack forms could be better.
You could keen amulet and use magic fang on the animal companion. 5 attacks 19-20 in addition to the attacks generated by the PC crit you could use the feats an additional time every round and a half.
You should still use a high crit two handed weapon.
Consider how to actually get aoo out of trips and grabs. They are both good but not for the reason you state. They make thing easier to hit and make you harder to hit. You need feat take take time to get a lot of aoos out for tripping and grapples don't really ever give aoos.Tripping provokes an attack of opportunity when the target tries to stand up. That's what I was referring to. I will revise this section and call them battlefield control.
You put grapple and trip together with the explanation of get more Aoos. It was just not as clear as it could be. Control is a good idea or just talk about them is two paragraphs trip > improved trip AOO but you may runout some rounds if your dex is not super high. A second paragraph grapple. Helps to hit controls casters etc.
Half-orc should be a purple-colored race. Why? Because you can dip barbarian two levels for Ferocious Beast rage power, and then share Amplified Rage feat benefits via Hunter's Tactics.
(This is particularly good as multiclass groundwork for the Mammoth Rider prestige class.)
Why must you go around sharing all of my barbarian secrets! How are my barb 1 martial class X going to be magically superior to everyone when you go left and right telling people how awesome a dip and extra rage feat are, or a dip into savage technologist, or pulling off amplified rage shenanigans (personal favorite is the valet familiar from eldritch fighter 2 and sharing sympathtic rage so the familiar rages thus triggering amplified rage for self. Fighting Frenzy works well with it too).
BTWs, using a badger prevents the need for the rage power. ;)
Man, I was using barbarian dips to AVOID being mainstream.
Now I have to combine a shifter, monk, and druid just to have a unique build!
I haven't thought this out too much, but Ultimate Wilderness added rules for milking poison from animal companions. Maybe...
I get your point about multiattacks and agree with you for the most part. But this build is trying to provoke attacks of opportunity and they will always do more damage if there is only 1 attack.
Pack Flanking can be a bit of a pain. Gang up works well for a lot of groups but has the same req.
How is it a pain? I don’t understand. You and your animal companion should be attacking together most of the time. Gang up is strictly inferior needing another character.
Revised the trip/grapple section. What do you think now.
Cool there are two improved outflank feats. I’ll revise in a bit.
Half-orc should be a purple-colored race. Why? Because you can dip barbarian two levels for Ferocious Beast rage power, and then share Amplified Rage feat benefits via Hunter's Tactics.
(This is particularly good as multiclass groundwork for the Mammoth Rider prestige class.)
Why must you go around sharing all of my barbarian secrets! How are my barb 1 martial class X going to be magically superior to everyone when you go left and right telling people how awesome a dip and extra rage feat are, or a dip into savage technologist, or pulling off amplified rage shenanigans (personal favorite is the valet familiar from eldritch fighter 2 and sharing sympathtic rage so the familiar rages thus triggering amplified rage for self. Fighting Frenzy works well with it too).
BTWs, using a badger prevents the need for the rage power. ;)
Upon reaching Mammoth Rider, you'll want to switch out the badger for an arsinoitherium or a megaloceros, among other size-large companions that would become huge with the second level in that PrC, which means you can ride them while Enlarged.
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It is a pain because you need 13 int on a already MAD build and you have to spend an additional feat to get it. That's why the wild child dip is very popular.
But this build is trying to provoke attacks of opportunity and they will always do more damage if there is only 1 attack.
Is this the goal? Or is the goal to use Aoos to do a lot of damage?
I would build out 5 or 6 different builds and put them through a DPR calculator and make my recommendation based on that but that may not be your style.
With that your going to want to see how many Aoo you will generate on average a turn. PC crits > animal Aoo > pc aoo > animal Aoo. The crit and the aoo being 2 different events. So, the animal is burning 2 aoo for the PCs one so you could burn through all the Aoos rather quickly.
TWF with not dex to damage does virtually no damage depending on the point buy. A multi-attack animal companion does less per hit more has more hit per round. The DPR is higher..
I could get a str based TWF going on a 20 pt buy... but it hurts- bad. You have to cut deep to get enough dex for TWF and enough str to match that dex. Well, you have to cut deep if you are playing a caster class.
It certainly cuts off a lot of routes to flank altering options. And you would have to suck at casting, and also be fairly brain dead in general given the stats you have to dump.
Honestly though? It isn't worth it. Some bards can make it work, since they have various bonuses to damage (I can do a fierce dawnflower dervish once you abandon the scimitar). But a hunter only gets flanking bonuses- damage is a trickier subject.
A melee hunter should just grab something big and critty, and let its animal companion be his extra damage.
It is a pain because you need 13 int on a already MAD build and you have to spend an additional feat to get it. That's why the wild child dip is very popular.
But this build is trying to provoke attacks of opportunity and they will always do more damage if there is only 1 attack.Is this the goal? Or is the goal to use Aoos to do a lot of damage?
I would build out 5 or 6 different builds and put them through a DPR calculator and make my recommendation based on that but that may not be your style.
With that your going to want to see how many Aoo you will generate on average a turn. PC crits > animal Aoo > pc aoo > animal Aoo. The crit and the aoo being 2 different events. So, the animal is burning 2 aoo for the PCs one so you could burn through all the Aoos rather quickly.
The AoO juggernaut is the way to go, and you don't need to sacrifice much to get it. (The actually hard trick is getting your mount's reach to equal your own so that tag-team AoOs really start reverberating with Paired Opportunists, which you will of course pick up. My solution was the Primal Companion archetype for Hunter, which lets you grant evolutions to your animal as a swift action.) You'll have a Fortuitous polearm and the animal will have Fortuitous on either tuskblades or an AoMF (an eventually large companion with horns or tusks is therefore "purple").
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Unchained rogue 4 / Hunter X is an AMAZING multi-class combo for an Outflank based character.
I've got a level 9 (Urogue4/Hunter5) character who is a terror in combat. TWF with a pair of keen kukri, add in sneak attack damage on every hit against most targets, with Boon Companion you don't lose any pet progression, finesse and dex to damage plus debilitating injury from the rogue levels. Once you get Debilitating Injury you can stack 2-3 debuffs a round on something (if it lives through the round). As a side note, you can use the 2 rogue talents for things like Weapon Focus and a combat (or teamwork) feat of your choice.
Take a tiger for the pet and you can pounce into combat for a claw/claw/bite/grab/rake/rake combo to open with. Get super nasty and take Precise Strike and Accomplished Sneak Attacker for even more damage.
With my character at level 9 currently, I have only run into 1 thing that managed to survive a full attack chain from me and my tiger companion...and that involved some bad rolls on my end :) I actually used my level 9 feat for something non-combat oriented, just to tone the character down a notch.
If I were writing the guide, I might actually rate the rogue as purple for multi-class options. 4 levels gets you a bunch of skill points (and class skills), finesse, Dex to damage, 2d6 sneak attack, 2 rogue talents, evasion, trap finding, debilitating injury, same BAB progression, slightly reduce fort save. You lose out on some spell progression, but an outflank build really won't miss it, it also delays stuff like raise companion (or in PFS you will end up not getting it), but that is also something you likely won't miss since hunter ACs are pretty darn tough.
Which reminds me phalanx formation should be mention in the feats if it's not.
Can you tell me about this feat, in what situations it would be necessary?
SanderJK
Thanks for pointing out those feats!
Unchained rogue 4 / Hunter X is an AMAZING multi-class combo for an Outflank based character.
I've got a level 9 (Urogue4/Hunter5) character who is a terror in combat. TWF with a pair of keen kukri, add in sneak attack damage on every hit against most targets, with Boon Companion you don't lose any pet progression, finesse and dex to damage plus debilitating injury from the rogue levels. Once you get Debilitating Injury you can stack 2-3 debuffs a round on something (if it lives through the round). As a side note, you can use the 2 rogue talents for things like Weapon Focus and a combat (or teamwork) feat of your choice.
Take a tiger for the pet and you can pounce into combat for a claw/claw/bite/grab/rake/rake combo to open with. Get super nasty and take Precise Strike and Accomplished Sneak Attacker for even more damage.
With my character at level 9 currently, I have only run into 1 thing that managed to survive a full attack chain from me and my tiger companion...and that involved some bad rolls on my end :) I actually used my level 9 feat for something non-combat oriented, just to tone the character down a notch.
If I were writing the guide, I might actually rate the rogue as purple for multi-class options. 4 levels gets you a bunch of skill points (and class skills), finesse, Dex to damage, 2d6 sneak attack, 2 rogue talents, evasion, trap finding, debilitating injury, same BAB progression, slightly reduce fort save. You lose out on some spell progression, but an outflank build really won't miss it, it also delays stuff like raise companion (or in PFS you will end up not getting it), but that is also something you likely won't miss since hunter ACs are pretty darn tough.
I'm currently playing a character that does the exact same thing. Though mine is a halfling that rides her boar companion. Take the right feats and you will be an AoO spamming machine. Those feats of course are Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunists, Broken Wing Gambit, and Combat Reflexes. True, the boar can't do as many a round as the halfling can, but with his high strength, he really doesn't need to. Gave him Tusk Blades and will be enhancing it with Keen as soon as I have the downtime. Precise Strike adds to the damage dealt. Next level, I'll be using Evolved Companion to give him a Slam attack as well. It's a primary attack so no BAB penalty. Sure, it'll lower his Gore's damage a little bit, but not so much that it will really hurt anything.
Jup, UC Rogue-Hunter is awesome.
Simon here is in a Gestalt 1.5 (you get one Gestalt level each two normal levels), playing a plain Hunter with UC Rogue as Gestalt Class.
Ah, and of course he's a Catfolk with a large black pantheress (intelligent) as AC. For awesome fluff (got it?^^)
Ah and of course, once you reach level 14 iirc, take Coordinated Charge and make sure your AC can pounce.
Let your AC declare the charge with a pounce, Coordinate-Charge with your AC and drop both full-round attack rotas on your target. Repeat.
Make sure to motivate other frontliners (especially hard-hitters like Babarians) to invest in Outflank teamwork feat and have them AoO upon one of your many crits as well.
If you want Dinosaur power and possibly reach, go with the Ancylosaurus as AC. That stun attack is brutally effective with regular AoO-Reach-attacks.
Marking for interest.
Is it just for fighting behind your animal companion or do you need it for some mounted rules I’m unfamiliar with? I guess that’s my question.
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I notice you added in a section about the rogue. As a note, you get dex to damage at level 3 not 5 on the URogue, and taking a 5th level isnt a great idea...you lose a point of BAB, your saves do not increase from it, and the extra d6 sneak can be made up for with the accomplished sneak attacker feat. The only reason I could see to go 5 levels into URogue would be if you are playing PFS and want the Rogue's Edge skill unlock (You can get it other ways outside of PFS).
Sweet. Not sure why I was thinking it was 5. That makes it much better. So, what’s good about 4th level over just 3 levels?
So, what’s good about 4th level (of rogue) over just 3 levels?
You get another Rogue talent, and Uncanny Dodge (an unsung little ability that will occasionally save your ass), and four-to-six more skill points than whatever other martial level you were thinking of taking instead (good deal in exchange for 1hp less). It doesn't provide any class development, however, so multiclassers often skip it.
Rogue4 also advance Ref save by one. 5th level in any class does not advance saves at all, so it had better be pretty spectacular to be worth taking from a multiclass perspective.
So, what’s good about 4th level (of rogue) over just 3 levels?You get another Rogue talent, and Uncanny Dodge (an unsung little ability that will occasionally save your ass), and four-to-six more skill points than whatever other martial level you were thinking of taking instead (good deal in exchange for 1hp less). It doesn't provide any class development, however, so multiclassers often skip it.
Rogue4 also advance Ref save by one. 5th level in any class does not advance saves at all, so it had better be pretty spectacular to be worth taking from a multiclass perspective.
Well assuming unchained rogue(which should be base assumption) lv4 of rogue gives debilitating injury, a debuff to the enemy when you sneak attack them. Having their attack roll be 4 lower against you is a nice boost for the rogue and 2 lower against all allies is helpful to them too. Or if you are getting more than 1 attack you can first debuff their AC by 4 for you making your iterative be basically full bab which if that hits could then swap to lowering their attack if you wanted or keep the AC penalized for your next round to be buffed.
Where are you coming up with that as a suggestion?
You start off with Hunter, taking the Combat Expertise feat so you can have Pack Flanking later, then at level 2 you take a level in UnRogue for the Weapon Finesse and Sneak Attack, then 2 more levels in Hunter for Outflank and a teamwork feat AKA Pack Flanking. Then 2 more levels in Rogue to get the Dex to damage, and take however many levels of Hunter you want before getting the fourth and last level of Rogue. Make sure to take Boon Companion at some point so your companion is fully developed.
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Definitely take hunter 1st, you will start with your animal companion, along with martial weapon proficiency (for kukri). Then go with a level of rogue to get weapon finesse. At level 3 grab boon companion, to keep your pet up to speed with you, I would also go ahead and just power through the rogue levels, you will have your own flanking partner (not quick fully powered up yet, but still amazing). Then just go straight hunter from level 6+, which is when this build really starts to get amazing. By level 9, properly geared and with the right feats you should be getting 3-4 attacks with the character, and 5+ with the AC (if you chose large cat), and that is before AoOs (which you will get a ton of thanks to the 15-20 crit range on your kukris). You will be debuffing your targets with -4 AC vs your attacks, -4 to hit against you, probably 50% movement speed as well, they will most likely also be grappled by your tiger thanks to its grab ability. They will also likely have taken 40-ish HP damage from the character, and 50+ from the AC (plus AoOs generated from crits).
It delays your teamwork sharing a little..but it is so very worth it in the long run.
I suppose you could also change things around and squeeze a few more hunter levels in earlier to rush out precise companion and hunter tactics...just comes down to which part of the build you find most valuable.
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Like I said the build is a fine build. I like unRogue dips and there are ways to control the character development to be less bumpy but the guide, as I understood it was about using a specific combo, with the specific class so it seems weird to me to recommend a build that puts of the subject of the guide for as many as 4 levels and is more rogue that hunter until level 8 in the hunter outflank animal companion guide.
Again not to say it's a bad build it just seemed a bit away from the goal of the guide from my perspective. But I'm not the author I I'm happy to differ to their judgment.
Half-Orc should be purple in light of the Shamanic Enhancement racial trait from Legacy of the First World, which replaces Weapon Familiarity and Intimidate to grant your AC +2 to any physical ability score. That's in addition to Darkvision and Sacred Tattoo/Tenacious, of course.
For my outflank hunter, I like using the sense vitals spell in combination with Improved Spell Sharing. I ride my wolf, cast that spell, and split the duration between myself and him. That way we both get +2d6 sneak attack damage for a few rounds, and we're basically always flanking because I'm riding him.
Like I said the build is a fine build. I like unRogue dips and there are ways to control the character development to be less bumpy but the guide, as I understood it was about using a specific combo, with the specific class so it seems weird to me to recommend a build that puts of the subject of the guide for as many as 4 levels and is more rogue that hunter until level 8 in the hunter outflank animal companion guide.
I'm looking and keep missing where I said what order to take any classes. I'll add a line for clarification.
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Like I said the build is a fine build. I like unRogue dips and there are ways to control the character development to be less bumpy but the guide, as I understood it was about using a specific combo, with the specific class so it seems weird to me to recommend a build that puts of the subject of the guide for as many as 4 levels and is more rogue that hunter until level 8 in the hunter outflank animal companion guide.
Again not to say it's a bad build it just seemed a bit away from the goal of the guide from my perspective. But I'm not the author I I'm happy to differ to their judgment.
I mentioned the URogue specifically for the section of the guide which talks about multi-classing. Not as a baseline for the entire guide to be written around.
Half-Orc should be purple in light of the Shamanic Enhancement racial trait from Legacy of the First World, which replaces Weapon Familiarity and Intimidate to grant your AC +2 to any physical ability score. That's in addition to Darkvision and Sacred Tattoo/Tenacious, of course.Wow, I hadn't seen that.
If you're playing a Half Orc with an AC, that alternate racial trait is a complete no-brainer.
Note: You have to search for "Shaman Enhancement" (not "Shamanic Enhancement") to find this.
Do Cavalier levels stack with hunter levels to advance your wolf if you are medium size?
If so the Order of the Blossom which grants you a Sneak Attack progression at level 2 might be an interesting option for a dip or a multiclass build.
I've also been debating the merits of Paired Opportunist for such a build.
In theoretical DPR calculations it's gonna do a lot of damage. But I reckon that in many instances where you score a critical hit with your two hander and your bloodthristy doggy takes a big bite you have likely suceeded at taking down your foe anyhow and won't be able to take extra AoO anyhow.