Close Weapon Mastery and Increasing your UAS damage


Rules Questions


Does increasing your unarmed strike damage do anything for Close Weapon Mastery? Do any of the following change the damage dealt:

A) Increasing your current actual size (Enlarge Person)
B) Increasing your effective size for unarmed damage (Strong Jaw)
C) Increasing your level for determining your unarmed damage (Half-Orc FCB)
D) UAS Damage change from another source (Improved Wilding Strike)


toastedamphibian wrote:

Does increasing your unarmed strike damage do anything for Close Weapon Mastery? Do any of the following change the damage dealt:

A) Increasing your current actual size (Enlarge Person)
B) Increasing your effective size for unarmed damage (Strong Jaw)
C) Increasing your level for determining your unarmed damage (Half-Orc FCB)
D) UAS Damage change from another source (Improved Wilding Strike)

No, the ability isn't based off of your unarmed strike damage, it's linked to the brawler unarmed damage table, at your level - 4. Enlarge Person still works though, because the weapon also gets bigger.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

A) Yes, as your Unarmed Strike Damage increases to large size, which you use the large size variant of the section you are at (1d8, 2d6, 2d8, etc).
B) Edit: Yes, as Brawler has the same line from Monk, which allows this to work.
C) Yes.
D) No, this isn't the "unarmed strike damage of a brawler" but the Unarmed Strike of Improved Wildling feat. Even if it did, it'd be useless in four levels (since level 8 would give you 1d8).


I've got one no, one yes, on A,B,And C. Anyone else want to weigh in?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't know if it'll help, but the reason for my answers is because Unarmed Damage is based on your size, for the purpose of calculating the damage, you are larger in each instance I said yes (either virtually or literally) except for C and D. C provides an exception to that because it increases your effective level by +1/4. After 5 levels of this, you'd have +1-1/4th, rounded down, one level higher. This would make it so you count as a level 6 for effects of Unarmed damage, which Close takes and subtracts 4 off of. As we are all aware, 6-4 = 2, making it so it has an effect. D is the exception because it isn't modifying the unarmed damage of brawler, merely unarmed damage.


Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you. I was just trying to get a consensus of some sort. Telling my DM "I'm not sure if this works, but half of 2 people on the internet say it does" is not the most helpful.

Your reasoning was clear and rational, and thank you for taking the time to both give it and elaborate upon it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

No problem! And I understand, if you don't get any response, best bet is just to talk to him, figure out why he doesn't agree (or if he does, then no need to go through the extra work). Maybe come to a compromise? Hard to say for all GMs, but I wish you luck!


"she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower". I take this as meaning you use the number from the class chart 4 lower than your level adjusted for size.

So
#1 enlarge changes the chart so yes.
#2 no, it doesn't modify the chart.
#3 No, you get the base die, not bonuses.
#4 No, it's not modifying the chart.

So you check your unarmed damage based on actual size for a generic brawler of 4 levels lower: that's it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:

"she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower". I take this as meaning you use the number from the class chart 4 lower than your level adjusted for size.

So
#1 enlarge changes the chart so yes.
#2 no, it doesn't modify the chart.
#3 No, you get the base die, not bonuses.
#4 No, it's not modifying the chart.

So you check your unarmed damage based on actual size for a generic brawler of 4 levels lower: that's it.

I'm willing to concede that 2 might be right for you (As my logic on it is mediocre at best), but 3 seems nonsensical. As it does modify the chart, and makes your effective level for the chart higher.

"Add 1/4 to the brawler’s effective level to determine her unarmed strike damage."

So Close checks "What is level of the Brawler?" the answer back would be 5 for base level, 6-1/4th for the purpose of unarmed strikes, which is rounded down to 6. Then it checks, "does this pertain to Unarmed strikes?" To which you get the answer, yes.

With your statement that you only get the basic brawler damage, size wouldn't change it either, as that isn't the "Base Dice." As it is only "Brawler 4 levels lower," a GM could say that the Brawler they are using for this example is Tiny or Small and only level 5. It's clear that the intent is that "if you were a brawler four levels lower" and your reading very silly.


TrinitysEnd wrote:
...best bet is just to talk to him...

I'm not particularly concerned about what the outcome is. If he allows it or not is his decision, but first he will ask me what the actual rule is. In this case, I'm not confident in my answer, so I come looking for some 3rd party opinions.


TrinitysEnd wrote:
It's clear that the intent is that "if you were a brawler four levels lower"

That is one of the ways I could see to interpret it, and probably the easiest, but then the Wilding feat line could potentially come into play. (I don't know, a multiclass character with 5 levels of brawler could technically benift, if they invested way too many feats...)


Ah... I misread the FCB. I was thinking it was giving a bonus to unarmed damage [like the catfolk monk FCB]. Now that I look again, it's a bump in level for checking damage. So yes, I was wrong on #3.

#3 Yes, it checks 4 levels lower than your effective level for unarmed damage.

PS: On size, a generic brawler check 2 things: size and level. Both these affect base damage. This is why actual size changes affect the results. It doesn't say "she uses the unarmed strike damage of a medium brawler 4 levels lower", so you need to make the size check to get the base damage.

"The unarmed damage values listed on that table are for Medium brawlers. A Small brawler deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large brawler deals more damage; see the following table.": both tables together list base damage for small, medium and large brawlers.


Could you refresh my memory graystone? Which side do you come down on re: sacred weapon and leadblades? Do you feel these questions are related?

Sacred Weapon, Close Weapon Mastery, Shifter Claws... I seem to have a lot of uncertainty about damage replacement effects and size changes.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Could you refresh my memory graystone? Which side do you come down on re: sacred weapon and leadblades? Do you feel these questions are related?

lead blades increases your weapons base damage not the sacred weapon dice.

Related? Identical except for the -4 levels part.

toastedamphibian wrote:
Shifter Claws...

Shifter's claws are a bit different. It's checking her natural form's claws vs the claws from her new shape. As such, it's the natural forms size and not the current forms size that matters.


yes, yes, yes, no

enlarge makes you a large size brawler giving you the large size table assuming medium base

strong jaw treats you as tho you were a huge brawler giving access to huge size category chart(you gata do the math your self tho cuz paizo didn't make one) or gargantuan if you are also enlarged assuming medium base

just increases your effective level for unarmed strikes would probably also work with monk robes too if your dm rules hybrid classes with the same class features as the parent class can use the same items to augment the class feature

this ability has nothing to do with the brawler unarmed damage from the class as it doesn't stack with it

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Close Weapon Mastery and Increasing your UAS damage All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
Bluffing against Confess spell
Limitations of Disguise Self