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If it wants to keep using them, yes. If your stats later fall short of prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, etc., then you lose access to them until you qualify again.
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I believe you no longer need to qualify for the prestige class after you enter it.
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Good point, worth looking at:
If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (You can still retrain that feat, prestige class, or other ability.)
The retraining rules are specifically "if retraining... means you no longer qualify", it doesn't apply if you no longer qualify via other means.
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Unlike feats if you no longer meet the prerequisites you don't lose any benefits, nor are you prevented from gaining further levels.This is wrong.
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
I believe you no longer need to qualify for the prestige class after you enter it.Not true, and you can’t use things from a prestige class to qualify for that prestige class. Plus you lose all class features (except saves, hp, and BaB) when you don’t qualify.
Technically, you don't lose saves, HP, BAB or skills because they are not class features (i.e. they do not appear after the line "the following are class features of the _____"). This is why, should a paladin fall, "loses all paladin spells and class features" has a clause about armour/weapon proficiency, but not HP, BAB, base saves, or skill points.
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Unlike feats if you no longer meet the prerequisites you don't lose any benefits, nor are you prevented from gaining further levels.This is wrong.Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
No, I was referring to prestige classes, so I am right. Your quote applies to feats - as I said unlike feats, there are no rules indicating you lose access to prestige class class features if you no longer qualify for that prestige class.
The only rules are:
1) you must qualify for the prestige class before taking your first level.
2) if you retrain such that you no longer qualify, you lose access to that prestige class.
That is it as far as rules are concerned - unless there is a FAQ I've missed.
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Plus you lose all class features (except saves, hp, and BaB) when you don’t qualify.
I'm going to ask for a citation please. I cannot find any such rule.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Plus you lose all class features (except saves, hp, and BaB) when you don’t qualify.I'm going to ask for a citation please. I cannot find any such rule.
The worse part of this was that people said “that FAQ doesn’t stop” so they took away retraining base classes to PRC entirely. If people hadn’t been so obstinate, we wouldn’t have lost that.
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That's just a clarification of the retraining rules. which is specific to retraining. It is not by any stretch a general rule. I fear we will need to disagree on this one.
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That FAQ has been reworked two times the day it came out. Not actually relevant, I just think it's hilarious. Anyway.
No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
The problem here is that it says "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify [...]"
It doesn't really say anything about what happens if you stop qualifying for reasons other than retraining. (Or for retraining anything but class levels, if we're extra picky.)Can you extrapolate from that? Probably. Is it reasonable to lose access if you stop qualifying? Most likely. Is it actually stated in the rules? No, not really.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The reason that FAQ got modified multiple times is people kept saying it didn’t say they couldn’t. Just like this thread.
The feat prereq rules are where prerequisite are covered. Just like the spell stacking rules cover stacking non-spell and supernatural effects despite not being spells.
If you read that and still conclude you don’t lose rules elements of a PRC your don’t qualify, the you are not going to believe anything that doesn’t address you specifically.
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But everyone forgets or overlooks the line at the top of special abilities that tells you all those abilities work like spells and then lists the ways they don't.
There's no such reference to make the leap from feats to prestige classes.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The ”in any case” means however it comes to be that you don’t meet the prerequisite the same happens. So it covers the case of retraining without using the word retrain. Such as the ability discussed here.
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The reason that FAQ got modified multiple times is people kept saying it didn’t say they couldn’t. Just like this thread.
The first instance of the FAQ just says that you still need to fulfill the prerequisites. That does not prevent a Prestige Class from fulfilling its own prerequisites - if a prestige class needs five BAB, and gives you five BAB, you still fulfill the five BAB requirement.
The second instance, "A Prestige Class can't fulfill its own prerequisites", fixes that problem, but still doesn't stop you from retraining into a second Prestige Class and have the two Prestige Classes fulfill each other's prerequisites.That's the loophole they fixed in the third instance.
But yeah...
The ”in any case” means however it comes to be that you don’t meet the prerequisite the same happens. So it covers the case of retraining without using the word retrain. Such as the ability discussed here.
It's not outright stated, but I'd agree that it is strongly implied that you lose access to your Prestige Class levels if you cease to qualify for them.
Technically still only implied, since another possible interpretation is simply "You aren't allowed to retrain into an illegal build" (Since literally every part of that FAQ is about retraining), which would still allow other effects to change your build without affecting Prestige Classes.
If you can't meet the requirements for a prestige class without using rules elements from that prestige class, you no longer qualify for that prestige class.
FAQ updated: "In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class."
But yeah, I'd count that reading as legalese cheese.
Honestly (), without the conversation around the FAQ, I wouldn't have been sure about that.
What actually convinced me that it applies to Prestige Classes as a whole was the sentence "If you can't meet the requirements for a prestige class without using rules elements from that prestige class, you no longer qualify for that prestige class." (because it's worded generally, not about retraining, and if you don't meet the prerequisite with the Prestige Class levels, then you certainly don't meet them without them, either), but that sentence never made it into the FAQ.
Without that, looking at the FAQ itself, it's just a bunch of "If you retrain..." rules.
(And if I didn't think losing access to a Prestige Class when you cease qualifying was reasonable, I'd point out that it still doesn't actually say what happens when you cease qualifying - it still only says what happens if you stop qualifying due to retraining.)
Ugh! There is a huge difference between the painful pseudo-logic required to get a thing to qualify for itself (and it saddens me that the FAQ needed to spell that out. I am glad I was not part of that discussion) and this situation.
I'm not sure I am in the cheesy rules-lawyering/trying to twist meanings territory.
Ugh! There is a huge difference between the painful pseudo-logic required to get a thing to qualify for itself (and it saddens me that the FAQ needed to spell that out. I am glad I was not part of that discussion) and this situation.
I'm not sure I am in the cheesy rules-lawyering/trying to twist meanings territory.
You should try it. It allows a lot you can't do normally, and it's not even always the most OP thing you could be doing.
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A lot of the rules in the Pathfinder books are assumed to be understood and nothing is expressly forbidden within abilities of any sort as it is assumed that the reader would know how to use the rules as stated and not add to them. Feats do note normal circumstances that have been superseded by the feat a lot of the time.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm not sure I am in the cheesy rules-lawyering
A number of reasons this shouldn't be a question:
- The FAQ says "in any case," which in the thread was meant to block the issue even when not using retraining.
- Is forbidden in Feats, a similar mechanic with prereqs.
- Forbidden by core "You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made" (taking additional levels in a PrC you no longer qualify).
- Forbidden in 3.5 Complete Warrior as a global rule: 'A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.” (CW 16) You retain Hit Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.'
Knowing that the developers say that the rules shouldn't be so rigidly applied, there is so much evidence that you lose access to the PrC when you don't qualify.
I would say we need a FAQ for this, but I think I've only seen 3 threads on this issue. So it isn't something we should burn a FAQ.
Mr. Risner, even when I agree with you on something, apparently I can't agree with you on the "why":
The FAQ says "in any case," which in the thread was meant to block the issue even when not using retraining.
"In any case" is followed by "you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class." Which is indeed prohibited in any case. But no one is trying to fulfill Prestige Class prerequisites using the Prestige Class' levels, so this is as relevant as "In any case, I like eating chocolate."
Is forbidden in Feats, a similar mechanic with prereqs.
I'm pretty sure I can come up with a bunch of things that are prohibited in one place but allowed in another if I go looking for them.
Forbidden by core "You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made" (taking additional levels in a PrC you no longer qualify).
This is after taking the class. No one is trying to meet prerequisites before taking a class level (except dragonhunterq, who thinks this only applies to the first level. I disagree, it applies to any level. But not to the continuous function of a level that's already taken).
Forbidden in 3.5 Complete Warrior as a global rule: 'A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.” (CW 16) You retain Hit Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.'
Which is an entirely different rule system. You don't see me digging Mind Rape out of its grave, either.
I would say we need a FAQ for this, but I think I've only seen 3 threads on this issue. So it isn't something we should burn a FAQ.
And we're back to agreeing again! Except maybe for details for what exactly happens when you cease qualifying.
I'm thinking that ceasing to meet prerequisites should have a similar result as being an ex-[cleric/paladin/whatever], but maybe/probably also affect (Ex) abilities gained from the class.
You would keep BAB, saves and HD, maybe also proficiencies, but not much, if any, else. But that's not spelled out anywhere.
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"...but that's not spelled out anywhere."
As we debate this, please remember that not everything is separated into little segments that become unrelated to other parts of the system. This ruleset works best when used together and complete rather than piece-mail and focused on bits and pieces.
If there is a precedent elsewhere that ferrets out a particular instance of how to do something, likely it is done the same way for the other instance. 3.5 reference aside, it is clear how to work the particulars discussed within the rules for Feats and Retraining.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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A good example (and there are many) of the “not spelled out” are how meta magic spells are treated as which level for things like ring of spell storing. It took years of devs saying they count for that and it took a controversial FAQ saying “whatever’s worse for the player” to get it across.
Similar to the “two hand default” rules often derided for being “unwritten rule”.
How would you rule on stat drain causing you to become ineligible for the PrC after you already have a PrC level?
Per dragonhunterq's quote, you only need to qualify for the first level. So loosing qualification after that would not seem to affect gaining more levels, nor do I see loosing access to the PrC abilities.
/cevah
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Drain lowers the score. Damage and penalties don't.
Usually, a stat requirement is low enough that anyone is very safe from losing access due to belts or headbands.
Specifically, if you lost enough to no longer qualify then you'd lose the feat / PRC / etc.
Losing a PRC isn't spelled out in Pathfinder, but going from pointers (such as the rules on Feats and how PrC seems to expand on those) and general "understanding" for the last couple decades you keep Skills, BAB, Saves, and HP.
I said drain for just that reason.
I found this [PRD]:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.
So this supports not being allowed to gain a PrC level.
There is still no support for loosing access, however.
/cevah
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There is still no support for loosing access, however.
While correct, there is significant indirect and implied support from Pathfinder FAQ responses. There is also the fact there was direct text blocking it in various 3.5 books like complete warrior and a general 3.5 FAQ blocking it using the CW p16 rule.