so forgive me if it's been asked a few times already, search doesn't quite give me results I feel satisfied in. Are there plans to bring more Pathfinder Legacy Races forward in future book content? I do like what the conversion suggestions the book gives but unless I'm misreading there's a distinct lack of guidelines for converting character traits over for player character use.
Which character races? I have actually been finding it easy to convert the ones I have so far.
There are several in the Starfarer's Companion, if you don't mind using 3p material. It's a good book, overall, and I think worth it, especially now when there isn't much to go on class, feat, or spell wise, yet.
But I agree that the races are by far easier to convert than other material. If it's a normal PC race, you pretty much drop their favored classes and change out any racial weapon proficiencies, skill bonuses, or spell like abilities for the starfinder equivalent.
I'd personally argue against flat converting energy resistances too (which I hear SC did much to many people's dislike) because it makes the character flat immune to certain energy weapons at early-game.
Yeah, my one complaint about their race writeups is that the Aasimar and Tiefling are quite a bit OP. Aasimar get something like 3 different ER 5's which is pretty dang broken at level 1. I think Tiefling's get two, but I'm AFB.
I'm not too concerned with the other (genesi/elemental) races that get one ER 5, since there are a few in the AA that have that already, like Ryphorans. But that's just my opinion.
I actually love the lack of pathfinder races in starfinder and don't plan on converting any of them (or using the legacy ones in the book). To me it's refreshing to have new options and keep the games distinct and separate.
My only complaint about the starfinder races is that a wish the Ysoki were a little more Warhammer skaven and a little less Disney's the rescuers.
However, in an effort to be helpful to the OP: you could convert the energy resistance into a buff to EAC (perhaps +1 for each resistance 5, so an Aasimar would get +3, and a tiefling +2). This may be too powerful, but it's all I can think of at the moment.
Which character races? I have actually been finding it easy to convert the ones I have so far.
well beyond the "in general" my personal desires are to see Dragonborns, Kobolds, Tengu, and Tieflings brought forward, and I have seen them listed as included in the Starfarers companion but something in my head feels odd about using 3rd party, but the closer and closer the game I'm running gets the more I feel like just taking ashot at it.
I would like to see a more flexible system for using Pathfinder classes in Starfinder, rather than how they currently get no weapon proficiencies and such. Let me play my Space mesmerist!
Also updating some more races would be nice, like Kitsune, and overall just tying the two worlds more closely together because right now they say its the same universe but Golarion is missing and we have no clue about the state of the cosmology or anything.
I'd personally argue against flat converting energy resistances too (which I hear SC did much to many people's dislike) because it makes the character flat immune to certain energy weapons at early-game.
Not to be condescending but isn't that supposed to be the entire major drawback and reason WHY the Energy weapons aren't completely OP? I mean, they already cost cheaper and hit an easier AC than the conventional firearms, they need some balancing factors or else why wouldn't you use one?
Which character races? I have actually been finding it easy to convert the ones I have so far.well beyond the "in general" my personal desires are to see Dragonborns, Kobolds, Tengu, and Tieflings brought forward, and I have seen them listed as included in the Starfarers companion but something in my head feels odd about using 3rd party, but the closer and closer the game I'm running gets the more I feel like just taking ashot at it.
I use these links.
Tiefling example:
Tieflings
TYPE
Outsider (native)1 rp (making this 1 because I only took dark vision. Left all other traits to balance.)
SIZE
Medium 0 rp
BASE SPEED
Normal 0 rp
ABILITY SCORE MODIFIERS
Standard (+2 Dex, +2 Int, –2 Cha) 0 rp
LANGUAGES
Standard 0 rp
RACIAL TRAITS
Defense Racial Traits
Fiendish resistance (Tieflings may choose one. Either cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, or fire resistance 5. Tieflings also receive a +1 Racial Bonus to EAC.). Only 2 rp.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Skill bonus (Bluff) 2 rp
Skill bonus (Stealth) 2 rp
Prehensile tail 2 rp
Magical Racial Traits
Spell-like ability, lesser 2 rp
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision 60 ft. 0 rp
Total 11 rp
11 rp is the same as a drow.
I'd personally argue against flat converting energy resistances too (which I hear SC did much to many people's dislike) because it makes the character flat immune to certain energy weapons at early-game.Not to be condescending but isn't that supposed to be the entire major drawback and reason WHY the Energy weapons aren't completely OP? I mean, they already cost cheaper and hit an easier AC than the conventional firearms, they need some balancing factors or else why wouldn't you use one?
Yes energy weapons need a balancing factor. But making a character immune (or nearly so, the strongest energy weapons you have at level 1 have a 50% chance of being nullified by Fire Resist 5) to them for the first few levels isn't balancing, it's removing a massive chunk of the threat from the early game... or else upping it and penalizing everyone who wanted to use one of the many energy weapons if you're using it as an enemy. Especially if it's a Fire resistance, given how nearly half the weapon options available at level 1 are Laser weapons. And honestly Tieflings are probably the worst with this, given they have Fire, Cold, and Electricity Resistance, the three most common energy weapon damage types.
Yes energy weapons need a balancing factor. But making a character immune (or nearly so, the strongest energy weapons you have at level 1 have a 50% chance of being nullified by Fire Resist 5) to them for the first few levels isn't balancing, it's removing a massive chunk of the threat from the early game... or else upping it and penalizing everyone who wanted to use one of the many energy weapons if you're using it as an enemy. Especially if it's a Fire resistance, given how nearly half the weapon options available at level 1 are Laser weapons. And honestly Tieflings are probably the worst with this, given they have Fire, Cold, and Electricity Resistance, the three most common energy weapon damage types.
Why not just limit the choice to one resistance? There are a bunch of races that have one resistance and it doesn't break the race. This is the future and enemies should have different weapon types. Throw in cryo or sonic weapons. Sounds like more interesting combat to me.
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1 Resistance or multiple at reduced (such as Resist 2 like Transitional Ryphorians) would work. I still dislike how strong Fire Resist is at low level, but that will hopefully be solved once we start getting other damage types more common below level 4.
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Yes energy weapons need a balancing factor. But making a character immune (or nearly so, the strongest energy weapons you have at level 1 have a 50% chance of being nullified by Fire Resist 5) to them for the first few levels isn't balancing, it's removing a massive chunk of the threat from the early game.
Get a slightly better gun then? Or heck, you could also just, ya know, use one of those conventional firearms that exist because last time i checked, fire resistance doesn't mean anything to bullets.
well beyond the "in general" my personal desires are to see Dragonborns, Kobolds, Tengu, and Tieflings brought forward, and I have seen them listed as included in the Starfarers companion but something in my head feels odd about using 3rd party, but the closer and closer the game I'm running gets the more I feel like just taking ashot at it.
The SC doesn't have Dragonborn. The Kobold and Tengu writeups seem fine to me, in that, they're probably almost exactly how I'd do it.
Tieflings (and Aasimar) in SC are broken. I'd almost certainly nerf Fiendish Resistance before I'd ever consider letting anyone play them, at least at 1st level.
Overall, I felt like the book was worth the $20. It had several races that I really feel my group would like to use. I'm willing to bet my first game will have at least one Gripli.
While I see problems with the way they did some of the classes, and I'm personally loathe to allow Wizards/Clerics on principal, the dearth of classes in the CRB is a major down point for the game, IMO. Plus it has a significant number of new spells and feats (also low points from the CRB). Right now, I am using it as a stop gap fill in until the official writeups for new classes/feats/spells and old races come in, and for me that's worth it. I have had several bad experiences with 3pp, but I bought it anyway and am happy with my purchase. YMMV.
Yes energy weapons need a balancing factor. But making a character immune (or nearly so, the strongest energy weapons you have at level 1 have a 50% chance of being nullified by Fire Resist 5) to them for the first few levels isn't balancing, it's removing a massive chunk of the threat from the early game.Get a slightly better gun then? Or heck, you could also just, ya know, use one of those conventional firearms that exist because last time i checked, fire resistance doesn't mean anything to bullets.
Bullets are expensive, energy charges are cheap.
Folks wanting to save their money will go with energy because it's a lot cheaper than buying rounds.
Yes energy weapons need a balancing factor. But making a character immune (or nearly so, the strongest energy weapons you have at level 1 have a 50% chance of being nullified by Fire Resist 5) to them for the first few levels isn't balancing, it's removing a massive chunk of the threat from the early game.Get a slightly better gun then? Or heck, you could also just, ya know, use one of those conventional firearms that exist because last time i checked, fire resistance doesn't mean anything to bullets.Bullets are expensive, energy charges are cheap.
Folks wanting to save their money will go with energy because it's a lot cheaper than buying rounds.
And energy resistance is the exact tradeoff they make for those cheap charges. So either have an alternate energy type on hand or get a backup gun, retconning several species existing capabilities just to suit your whims is just silly.
And energy resistance is the exact tradeoff they make for those cheap charges. So either have an alternate energy type on hand or get a backup gun, retconning several species existing capabilities just to suit your whims is just silly.
Emphasis added
That's not really a fair description, at least for Tieflings/Aasimar. In this game, these species don't officially exist yet, nor do they have any existing capabilities. No ones retconning anything by saying that the abilities the races had in a different game are OP in this game. PF/SC Tieflings/Aasimar have ER to the 3 most common energy types and are effectively nearly immune to all three before level 4 or so. Anyone running an AP against those players has to consider rewriting half the enemies in order to allow them as written/likely converted.
Down that path lay madness.
(Of course, if you're referring to people suggesting changes to the handful of creatures that do exist in the AA with a single ER, I withdraw my statement entirely.)
And energy resistance is the exact tradeoff they make for those cheap charges. So either have an alternate energy type on hand or get a backup gun, retconning several species existing capabilities just to suit your whims is just silly.Yes energy weapons need a balancing factor. But making a character immune (or nearly so, the strongest energy weapons you have at level 1 have a 50% chance of being nullified by Fire Resist 5) to them for the first few levels isn't balancing, it's removing a massive chunk of the threat from the early game.Get a slightly better gun then? Or heck, you could also just, ya know, use one of those conventional firearms that exist because last time i checked, fire resistance doesn't mean anything to bullets.Bullets are expensive, energy charges are cheap.
Folks wanting to save their money will go with energy because it's a lot cheaper than buying rounds.
At the early levels (1 through 3) you can barely afford one gun, let alone two or three. And for a ranged character (like most are going to be) there's currently only two energy damage types even available before item level 4: a lot of fire and one electric that deals nonlethal. Both of which are resistances that Pathfinder's Tieflings has Resist 5 to, and thus would be for the most part completely immune to at early levels. Sure at higher levels you can carry 6 different guns with 6 different damage types, but at no point has higher levels ever been where my concern has been.
To put this into another frame of reference though, would you at any point be okay with a playable race having DR 5/- as an inherent ability? Because in Starfinder Physical Damage might as well just be another damage type, and DR 5/- is pretty much equal to Energy Resist 5.
All that said, I will concede that AA has made it obvious that one Resistance 5 isn't going to be uncommon. I merely hope that they don't make races that completely shut down early-game energy weapons with multiple Resist 5s, but instead follow the Transitional Ryphorian model and have Resist 2s if they have multiple Resistances.
Or a bonus to EAC?
That would be great, but doesn't seem that likely (at least from Paizo) going by what we've seen of races so far.
At the early levels (1 through 3) you can barely afford one gun, let alone two or three.
Look at the adventure path dead suns and you’ll see that 20%-25% of the battles include laser weapons. In fact SPOILERS!!!! after the first scene you could possibly steal 6 laser pistols.
And for a ranged character (like most are going to be) there's currently only two energy damage types even available before item level 4: a lot of fire and one electric that deals nonlethal. Both of which are resistances that Pathfinder's Tieflings has Resist 5 to, and thus would be for the most part completely immune to at early levels. Sure at higher levels you can carry 6 different guns with 6 different damage types, but at no point has higher levels ever been where my concern has been.
The last few comments on this thread have stated only have one resistance for converting the tiefling. One resistance (even if it is fire) is not broken. We all pretty much agree on that. Even adding an additional +1EAC wouldn’t break the race either(Vesk get a plus to both EAC and KAC). They wouldn't get Fiendish Sorcery sicne their aren't sorcerers anymore. Native outsiders don't get anything special in Starfinder that I could find. The only other thing the race has is create darkness. That is nothing since half the playable races can see through it. Compare the tiefling (w/ resistance 1 element) to a drow (can cast mulitple spells), dragonkin(breathe weapon & can FLY) or any other races and you'll see it is pretty balanced.
To put this into another frame of reference though, would you at any point be okay with a playable race having DR 5/- as an inherent ability? Because in Starfinder Physical Damage might as well just be another damage type, and DR 5/- is pretty much equal to Energy Resist 5.
This is an extreme. You would either choose slashing, piercing or bludgeoning which those resistances exist in pathfinder.
Here is a 3rd party weapon generator. It’s not that bad actually. It’s the future and with multiple planets and starsystems. Weapons should be everywhere and should range a great deal.
That would be great, but doesn't seem that likely (at least from Paizo) going by what we've seen of races so far.
It’s pretty clear Paizo has given the tools to create your own races in the book and the only guidance they gave to not break the game was compare to other playable races. I was actually shocked to see they didn’t have a point structure to add or compare too. In Alien Archive you could even add flight movement for free! In Pathfinder flight costs a lot to put into a race.
Using the links in my comments you’ll find a good balance to creating races. I have personally added and deleting abilities numerously times over the past weekend because I was looking for that right balance.
And energy resistance is the exact tradeoff they make for those cheap charges. So either have an alternate energy type on hand or get a backup gun, retconning several species existing capabilities just to suit your whims is just silly.Emphasis added
That's not really a fair description, at least for Tieflings/Aasimar. In this game, these species don't officially exist yet, nor do they have any existing capabilities. No ones retconning anything by saying that the abilities the races had in a different game are OP in this game. PF/SC Tieflings/Aasimar have ER to the 3 most common energy types and are effectively nearly immune to all three before level 4 or so. Anyone running an AP against those players has to consider rewriting half the enemies in order to allow them as written/likely converted.
Down that path lay madness.
(Of course, if you're referring to people suggesting changes to the handful of creatures that do exist in the AA with a single ER, I withdraw my statement entirely.)
Emphasis added
They do exist and we know their capabilities from Pathfinder. Starfinder is the same universe so to suggest a radical restructuring of their biological racial traits sounds silly. I mean, the only reason Androids are different is because they are an entirely new breed from the Androffan type androids of PF.Unless you can give me a good in-world reason that these species would have drastically changed I am going to have to disagree with you. After all letting one character be strong for a few levels isn't so bad, it just means they will have to protect their squishier allies.
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I think it's important to remember that Starfinder is technically a different game than Pathfinder. As such, direct conversions (say, of three energy resistances) may not be appropriate. Saying that tiefling energy resistance is being nerfed is a distraction from the point that you're actually converting between game systems, and that tends to require more consideration than just copying over text.
They do exist and we know their capabilities from Pathfinder. Starfinder is the same universe so to suggest a radical restructuring of their biological racial traits sounds silly. I mean, the only reason Androids are different is because they are an entirely new breed from the Androffan type androids of PF.
Unless you can give me a good in-world reason that these species would have drastically changed I am going to have to disagree with you. After all letting one character be strong for a few levels isn't so bad, it just means they will have to protect their squishier allies.
I completely disagree with you. Until there is a legal writeup for a race, they don't exist unless a given DM says that they do. And even then, they only exist in that game by that DM and by that DM's whim, not in the world at large. Any DM that compares those races to the races that exist is completely justified if they decide those abilities are too powerful for their games. Any DM that decides they should have all the same goodies they had in PF is also justified in making that choice. It's their game.
Asking for an in-world reason for a rule change between two different games that share a setting is a bit much. This is a different game. Lots of stuff is different. There are in story indications that (possibly) none of the PF AP's ever happened in SF story, and many of the races/classes/spells/monsters changed significantly. The monsters and AP's and society modules are balanced against the races that were put in the CRB and AA (and even then, some aren't, which is why their availability is limited in Society play). Or did I miss the PF module where goblins were running around with laser guns? Pathfinder and Starfinder are about as different from one another as 3.5 is from Pathfinder. Stuff changed, there is no reason to assume that this won't (or will, for that matter).
This is an extreme. You would either choose slashing, piercing or bludgeoning which those resistances exist in pathfinder.
Since things are getting a bit circular at this point I'm gonna leave off the energy resistance discussion, but I do need to comment on this. I have previously gone through the entire Alien Archive, including the various Grafts for creating your own creatures. Not once does DR/Damage Type ever come up. I don't have copies of the AP books or SFS scenarios to compare, but based on the sheer number of entries in AA the fact that not once does a damage type DR ever come up leads my group to theorize Paizo may have decided to do away with damage type DR in Starfinder. At least for now.
Until there is a legal writeup for a race, they don't exist unless a given DM says that they do. And even then, they only exist in that game by that DM and by that DM's whim, not in the world at large.
Ah, so by that logic, in Pathfinder the miscellaneous Empyreal lords, the 1000 gods of Vudra, Psychopomp Ushers, and other various deities that lack a domain writeup don't exist?
They exist because we know they exist in the setting, to say they don't exist because they lack stats is silly. Sure a DM can rule that tieflings don't exist in his homebrew but Starfinder revolves around it's core setting and that includes all the creatures and beings in Pathfinder to some extent due to it sharing the same universe (and solar system).
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Forgive me, I meant, "don't exist as a playable race" and not "don't exist in the lore".
They exist because we know they exist in the setting, to say they don't exist because they lack stats is silly. Sure a DM can rule that tieflings don't exist in his homebrew but Starfinder revolves around it's core setting and that includes all the creatures and beings in Pathfinder to some extent due to it sharing the same universe (and solar system).
So if you are trying to be snarky you should probably step back from the computer and take a breather. To me this sounds like baiting under the Community Guidelines.
Starfinder does revolve around a core setting but just because I brought the book and am using the rules doesn't mean I have to follow any of them. I can change rules and the setting in my home game. It states in multiple books and in multiple sections that the books are merely guides. The main theme is to have fun!
This thread started off to help a guy to convert some races and has turned sour. Really sucks to see it turn out that way.
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This thread started off to help a guy to convert some races and has turned sour. Really sucks to see it turn out that way.
Yeah... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sour things. It seems i just hold some controversial opinions. I'll stop now, sorry again.
Also updating some more races would be nice, like Kitsune, and overall just tying the two worlds more closely together because right now they say its the same universe but Golarion is missing and we have no clue about the state of the cosmology or anything.
I did a conversion of kitsune for a home game. I changed the penalty to a Constitution penalty because it's impossible to play a Dex fighter in Starfinder unless you're an operative.
Ability Adjustments: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Hit Points: 4
Size and Type: Kitsunes are Medium humanoids with the kitsune and shapechanger subtype. They have a base speed of 30 feet.
Agile and Stealthy: Kitsune gain a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics, Athletics, and Stealth checks.
Change Shape (Su): Kitsunes can assume the appearance of a specific human (or other humanoid with the human subtype) of the same age and sex. Kitsunes always take this specific form when using this ability and gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action, and kitsunes retain the shape infinitely (even if killed or knocked unconscious) until they change forms.
Kitsune Magic (Sp): Kitsune can cast the dancing lights spell at-will as a spell-like ability.
Low-Light Vision: Kitsunes can see in dim light as if it were normal light.
I did a conversion of kitsune for a home game. I changed the penalty to a Constitution penalty because it's impossible to play a Dex fighter in Starfinder unless you're an operative.
Ability Adjustments: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Hit Points: 4
Size and Type: Kitsunes are Medium humanoids with the kitsune and shapechanger subtype. They have a base speed of 30 feet.
Agile and Stealthy: Kitsune gain a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics, Athletics, and Stealth checks.
Change Shape (Su): Kitsunes can assume the appearance of a specific human (or other humanoid with the human subtype) of the same age and sex. Kitsunes always take this specific form when using this ability and gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action, and kitsunes retain the shape infinitely (even if killed or knocked unconscious) until they change forms.
Kitsune Magic (Sp): Kitsune can cast the dancing lights spell at-will as a spell-like ability.
Low-Light Vision: Kitsunes can see in dim light as if it were normal light.
All the Kitsune I found have a -2 str and they didn't have three +2 to skills. What Kitsune did you base this off of?
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Unless I am completely missing something, Dragonborn are not a Pathfinder player race
Dragonkin are just as good. Large Dragon humanoid that can fly and has a breath attack.
*points up* This. Just because Aasimar and Tieflings exist in the setting, doesn't mean they must be allowable PC race choices.
I think the debate was how to convert. It's pretty clear most people in the thread want those races.
We could just do this Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 2, electricity resistance 2, and fire resistance 2.I mean isn’t only 1 additional point of damage and after level 2 it would basically do nothing.
If the resistances is such a big problem they could just get a +2 EAC and end it there.
*Snip*All the Kitsune I found have a -2 str and they didn't have three +2 to skills. What Kitsune did you base this off of?
While the three skill bonuses is a surprise (At a guess it was to try to make up for the Kitsune Magic ability they don't have, since a lot of races do have 2+ skill bonuses), they did at least explain the -Str to -Con conversion in their post. That said, a racial penalty doesn't actually matter a whole lot past the first couple of levels so it's not a change I personally agree with.
Also I feel that instead of Athletics skill bonus, they probably should have gotten Natural Weapons in Kitsune form, not unlike the Reptoids do.
I think the debate was how to convert. It's pretty clear most people in the thread want those races.
Also the issue here originated with this quote:
They do exist and we know their capabilities from Pathfinder. Starfinder is the same universe so to suggest a radical restructuring of their biological racial traits sounds silly.
Which gave rise to the controversial stuff about changing existing mechanics and ultimately lead to the bit you quoted.
EDIT: Well, technically it started with my misgivings against racial Resist 5s, which through a series lead to that quote, which lead to its own segment.
Ability Adjustments: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Hit Points: 4
Size and Type: Kitsunes are Medium humanoids with the kitsune and shapechanger subtype. They have a base speed of 30 feet.
Agile and Stealthy: Kitsune gain a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics, Athletics, and Stealth checks.
Change Shape (Su): Kitsunes can assume the appearance of a specific human (or other humanoid with the human subtype) of the same age and sex. Kitsunes always take this specific form when using this ability and gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action, and kitsunes retain the shape infinitely (even if killed or knocked unconscious) until they change forms.
Kitsune Magic (Sp): Kitsune can cast the dancing lights spell at-will as a spell-like ability.
Low-Light Vision: Kitsunes can see in dim light as if it were normal light.
Personnally, i'd have left them with the Str penalty (worst case scenario, you can take one of the arrays that overwrite racial bonuses). Also, did they get to keep the best racial feat ever made (Realistic Likeness)?