I can see the logic in that.To me Pathfinder was similar enough to DND 3.5 that no beginner box was necessary out of the gate. Starfinder, however, seems different enough to warrant one from the start, to help teach the system.
If I can spend general feats to pick up the multi-class feats, I can get behind this. Pick up some off-class abilities without sacrificing my main class stuff, sweet.
My guess is however, that the dedication feats cost class feats, which diminishes my main class to pick up those off-class abilities, which sucks.
The Devs keep repeating how turning all aspects of the game into feats opens up tons of design space for moving forward, but to me it just seems like lazy design. "I don't feel like actually designing this race/class/archetype/prestige class/spell/whatever, so let's just turn it into a series of feats and call it a day".
I'm really hoping that actually seeing the whole playtest book will make it make more sense and not seem so bland, but I'm not very optimistic about it.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Trivial: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.Seriously 'tho, trivial to me is not a 50/50 coin flip. Trivial to me is something the average joe could do 85-90% of the time without even trying. I'll leave the actual number crunching to those obsessed over the math (lord knows there's plenty of them), but to me, it just seems off.
Paizo seems to have an aversion to printing things I want to see, so my post-CRB wish list consists of only 2 items.
 A conversion guide from 1.0 to 2.0, kind of like the one they put out when switching from 3.5 to pathfinder.
 The new compatibility license, so awesome 3rd party companies like Dreamscarred Press & Rogue Genius Games can keep putting out the stuff I actually want to play.
You would've hated 1st edition DnD then. lol.
As to the OP's topic:
What do I expect: since EVERYTHING in 2.0 seems to be based on/around feats, I expect multi-classing to work very similar to VMC from 1.0... only worse. I say worse because, you'll likely not be able to grab other class feats with your general feats, but will have to give up your limited class feats to do so, thus diluting your original class in the process. VMC in 1.0 is a pretty weak option, but at least you don't have to give up your original class features to do it.
What do I know: thusfar, nothing except that it exists in some form in 2.0. Like most of 2.0, I'm hoping for the best while expecting the worst.
The best thing about this IMO, is that it shows that the developers are paying more attention to the needs of the DM. in 1e, far too much content seems to be aimed at players only, while DM's get left in the dust.
It would have made more sense to me to make sorcerer the full Occult caster to further differentiate them from wizards, and have the bard (as the jack of all trades class) be the one that could mix it up with different spell lists depending on his muse (or something similar).
I've kinda sorta been doing this for years. Everything in the core book is common and readily available at normal costs; hardcover splat-book (APG, ultimate magic, etc) are uncommon and may or may not be available for +25-50% normal cost; all other splatbooks/3rd party stuff is rare and seldom available at +100% normal costs.
It's worked great to allow player's to occasionally get a shiny new toy, without overloading myself as the DM with too much extra work.
Finally something in 2nd edition that isn't just something else stripped down into a bunch of feats and regurgetated back up.
But, seriously, Resonance seems to me to be a lot like VMC in 1st edition: a really cool concept that lacks proper design and implementation.
On multi-classing: I kinda hope it does work like VMC. I thought that was a cool system, but with a poor execution. It always felt like they had this neat idea, but due to time constraints/lack of playtesting/whatever, the implementation fell short. 2nd edition, gives them the opportunity to fix that.
Another thing I want to say is that (as evidenced by my pessimistic remarks in most of the playtest blog threads) even 'tho overall I don't like how 2nd edition is shaping up, one thing I do appreciate is the fact that Paizo seems to be trying to take high level play into consideration and make it an integral part of the new game from the ground up. Given how high level play was basically ignored in 1st edition, this is a welcome change for those of us who like to play (or hell, sometimes even start games) at level 11+.
Am I the only one that absolutely hates that practically EVERYTHING in 2nd edition has been reduced to a freaking feat.
I realize that one of the goals of 2nd edition was to simplify and streamline character creation, but there must have been a better way to accomplish that goal.
Hi, I'm a monk. My special abilities are called Ki Powers and allow me to cast spells.
Hi, I'm a cleric. My special abilities are called Domain Powers and allow me to cast spells.
Hi, I'm a wizard. My special abilities are called school powers and allow me to cast spells.
Anyone else see the resemblance to 4th edition and the way they made every class homogenized, boring and the same?
Love: that fear now automatically lessens over time, so you can get back into the fight and perhaps even contribute.
Hate: that quickened grants different types of bonus actions depending on the source of the condition. Just make it 1 bonus action across the board and be done with it.
Meh: new number stacking vs old progressively worse conditions. IMO, the old way was pretty simple and easy to keep track of, and this new way looks just as simple and easy to keep track of.
Besides, how often does the need to "fall from orbit without taking damage" actually come up in a game? maybe once every 5-10 years (that's actual real-world years, not game downtime years)? I really don't see it being an issue.
I skipped a bunch of pages due to the flame wars emanating from them, so...
The legendary feats look amazingly overpowered, but you only get a limited number of them (3-6 I believe), so it's not like you're pulling these legendary stunts with everything you do all day long.
I was hoping for some more low-level examples (you know stuff that will actually get played and used) instead of the focus on Legendary stuff, which likely will never see play at most tables.
PossibleCabbage wrote: "I feel like taking Assurance in something you plan on being legendarily competent at is sensible, since "take 30" is pretty good."
As long as it doesn't take 30 times as long to perform the check like taking 20 in P1e took 20 times as long.
Halfling sorcerer 12/barbarian 1. Contingency set to trigger Enlarge Person when she "wolfs-out" into hybrid form. Causing her to transform from a 3' halfling into a 9' raging werewolf, that's now charging at the enemy.
Are the characters going to be children as well, or are the kids playing adult PCs?
If the former:
Or, perhaps another child from the town who was bullied/an outcast took the pets as revenge.
If the latter:
Or Perhaps a local farmer forgot to introduce his son's new pet to the farm Dvorovoi(bestiary 5 or the PRD bestairy index) and the creature took offense and talked the other Domovoi and Dvorovoi in the area to take the pets until a formal apology is made.
Hope these ideas help, have fun.
In Unchained they combined Sense Motive and Perception into just Perception.
Time Thief from super genius games/rogue genius games/whatever the hell they're calling themselves nowadays: hands down the coolest class ever written, and even 'tho it's 3rd party, Paizo should include it in the core book because of it's sheer awesomeness.
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Then where is my CON boost (a fighter's secondary stat) coming from? I'm not trying to work against the system, but the system (what little we've seen of it) seems more restrictive to character vareity than some of you seem to want to admit to.Yes, the floating bonuses can help cover some of the gaps, but IMO it's not gonna be enough to prevent the CCC syndrome. Like I said in my original post, I hope the actual playtest material in August proves me wrong. But until then, my opinion stands.
I skipped like 5 pages so this may have already been said elsewhere.
So each background provides 2 ability bumps, 1 skill feat, and 1 free lore skill. Sounds kind of underwhelming to me. The lore skills especially just seem too niche and may or may not ever come into play.
OFF-TOPIC 1: I'm really not a fan of this new method for generating ability scores. To me it lends itself to having too many cookie-cutter characters that are all the same 'cuz that's the "optimal" combination for the classes main stats. [For instance: why would my Fighter ever take the "scribe background" when the blacksmith one pumps my main stats?]. I see this as especially being a problem in PFS games where people tend to optimize more so than in casual games, but it's still an issue.
OFF-TOPIC 2: The whole theme of 2.0 thus far seems to be to drop the power level and entrance complexity. Which is cool and truthfully much needed, but they seem to be taking it way too far in that direction for my tastes. I'm still gonna try out the actual playtest in Aug, and I hope that upon seeing the "whole picture" that I'm completely blown away by it...but as of right now, based on what little I've seen, I will not be switching to 2.0. The few Diamonds I've seen thus far do not make up for the sheer amount of worthless coal.
So the Initiate feats from Player's Guide to Faerun (which granted diety-specific spells to forgotten realms dieties back in 3.0) makes a comeback. That's actually pretty cool - not new or innovative, but cool nonetheless.
Anathema: I've been house-ruling this sort of thing for years. Nice to see an official take on it.
Domain Powers: the ones previewed seem weak and boring to me. Hopefully they're not all as lame as those. Otherwise, I'll just have to port over the P1E domain powers.
Spell Pool: I'm kinda unclear on this. Is there a separate pool for using domain powers and channeling? or do all class features draw from the same spell pool?
Does any DM out there actually keep track of encumbrance anymore?
So, with this I'd need at least 4 ancestry feats just to play a standard P1E dwarf (hatred, weapon familiarity, poison resist, magic resist). Also no mention if stonecunning is a free basic ancestry trait or if that's a 5th feat needed.
Hopefully, this changes between now and when the actual 2.0 books drop next year. If not, looks like my group will just stick to 1.0.
But I share your concerns with this and as I tried commenting earlier I am pretty disappointed that stat adjustments (to include vision, speed and hp) and these fairly underwhelming feats are all ancestry gets in terms of mechanics. I feel as though a PC could have all 4 of those feats at level 1 and be just about in line with what a normal race gets in 1e which is a resounding meh. I really do hope there ends up being more to it.
Exactly. It's almost like saying "you can play an Elf, but you don't get low-light vision, magic resistance, or ancestral weapon proficiencies unless you spend these ancestry feats to get those things". So basically you're a generic being chassis with no defining features until you take the ancestry feats to turn you into an average member of your chosen species.
I skipped a few pages, so forgive me if this has already been said.
I Hate the idea of Paizo goblins as a core race, but IMO, that wasn't the red flag of this blog post. The red flag was how boring and underwhelming ancestry feats appear to be.
Burn It: could be cool if the damage boost is significant or scales with level -both of which I doubt.
Junk Tinkerer: so I can make a broken, fragile improvised weapon? why wouldn't I just use a normal improvised weapon that isn't broken or fragile and save the feat slot for something useful.
Razor Teeth: This is probably the best of the 4 listed. a free bite attack sounds pretty cool, right? and might be if it's an extra attack, but more than likely it still counts against my 3 actions, which is less cool. Still, being always armed can be an advantage, so this one doesn't completely suck.
Very Sneaky: so I can use stealth to move 15 feet instead of 10 feet (assuming that you round down, 1/2 of 25 feet base speed is 10 feet), not all that impressive for spending a feat slot on.
If this is any indication of the overall scope and
The Good: what I like about the P2E info so far.
The Bad: what I dislike about the P2E info so far.
The Ugly: what I hope to see in P2E
(1) Warrior of Holy Light [Paladin]: To me, 4 level casters are kind of pointless. This archetype removes the spellcasting and provides other cool abilities that are better themed to the base character. I've made this archetype the new core paladin in my games.
(2) Skirmisher [Ranger]: For the exact same reasons as listed above.
(3) Monk of the Empty Hand [Monk]: Improvised weapons are cool thematically, but totally suck mechanically. This archetype changes that.
(4) Scrollmaster [Wizard]: "I attack with my rolled up piece of parchment, have at you". This ones just too weird to not consider.
(5) Dervish Dancer [Bard]: I like that this turns the bard into a self-buffer instead of the standard party buffer for a nice change of pace (The same reason alchemists are so cool).
(Honorable Mention 1) Bladebound [Magus]: This archetype is a true roleplayers dream...and possibly nightmare.
(Honorable Mention 2) Altho not archetypes, I'd like to see Bardic Masterpieces and Variant Channeling become a core part of Bards and Clerics respectively.
This is my version of the fighter class. I made it not only to give the fighter a slight power boost, but also a flavor boost. Its only been played in one game so far and we're only at level 3, so I don't have a lot of play-test feedback yet, but feel free to dissect it and tell me what you think.
Just note a couple of things:
HD, BAB, and Saves: no changes.
Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Craft (Int), Husbandry (Cha), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Warcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + 1/2 Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields). In addition, he is proficient with all exotic weapons listed under his chosen weapon training categories.
Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Teamwork Feats, or Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Battlefield Politics (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear, Influence checks to feint in combat, Influence checks to demoralize an opponent, and Perception checks to sense motives. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Martial Calling (Ex): Beginning at 1st level the fighter must choose one of the following martial callings to follow: Assembly, Logistics, Munitions, or Tactics. Each choice offers a couple of bonus feats as well as a special ability gained at 1st, 7th, 13th, and 19th level.
Assembly: these are the artisans and craftsmen who make and repair the armaments that keep the wheels of war spinning. Their keen eye for detail also allows them to develop an insight into when something is visually out of place.
Bonus Feats: choose skill focus in 2 of the following: craft (armor, bowyer, weapons, or siege engines), knowledge (engineering), or profession (architect, engineer, or soldier).
Architect's Insight: At 1st level. Perception becomes a class skill. In addition, you gain advantage on perception checks to notice secret or hidden doors, mundane traps, and unusual stonework. This ability stacks with any similar ability such as trapfinding or stoncunning. If you gain 2 instances of advantage on the same check, you roll 3 times and keep the highest result of the 3.
Advanced Craftsmanship: At 7th level, you gain your choice of the master weaponsmith advanced weapon training ability or the master armorer advanced armor training ability as a free bonus ability.
Craftsman's Insight: At 13th level, you gain the Artificer's Touch (Sp): domain power, treating your fighter level as your effective cleric level. In addition, you add 1/2 your fighter level as a competence bonus to the 2 skills you chose skill focus feats for at 1st level.
Mystic Architecture: At 19th level, your ability to notice when things are out of place extends to magical "misalignments". You gain advantage on saving throws vs Illusions and all Perception checks (not just the ones listed in your architect's insight class feature). A number of times per day equal to your WIS modifier (minimum 1) as a swift action, you may grant this ability to all adjacent allies for 1 minute.
Logistics: Logictics is the study of movement and how it affects both individual combatants and entire armies. Fighters with this calling are masters at knowing the best way to get from point A to point B with the least amount of effort or resistance.
Bonus Feats: you gain nimble moves and either fleet or run (choose one) as bonus feats.
Pick up the Pace: At 1st level, The distance you travel when using local movement or overland movement is increased by +25%. In addition, any CON checks required for making a forced march recieve a +4 bonus. You may take a full-round action to grant this ability to a number of allies within 100' equal to your level +WIS modifier for 24 hours. At 7th, 13th, and 19th level the number of allies you can affect with this ability doubles, and the distance increases by an additional +25%.
Close Combat Manuvering: At 7th level, , you gain your choice of the fighter's reflexes advanced weapon training ability or the armored finesse advanced armor training ability as a free bonus ability.
Charging Logistics: At 13th level, when the fighter takes a charge action, he may make a full attack at the end of that charge; and when he takes a withdraw action, he may make a single attack at any point during his movement. x1/day as part of a charge or withdraw action, the fighter may grant this ability to all adjacent allies for 1 round. At 19th level, he may do this x2/day.
Nimble Swarm: At 19th level, your nimble moves, fleet and run feats gain the teamwork type. In addition, as a standard action, a number of times per day equal to your DEX modifier (minimum 1) you can grant those feats to all allies within 60' for 3 rounds.
Munitions: Munitions experts are masters at maximizing damage potential. Whether by increasing the accuracy and damage dealt by weapons; assisting allies in dealing more damage; or even finding weapons when none are normally available.
Bonus Feats: you gain catch off guard and weapon focus as bonus feats.
Battlefield Scrounging: When you or an adjacent ally use the aid another action in combat, the bonus is increased by your highest weapon training bonus. In addition, at 1st level: x1/day you may spend 1 minute to search a freshly vanquished foe, or the area of a recent battle (no more than 3 rounds ago) to find 1d4 arrows, bolts or sling bullets. At 7th level you may use this ability x2/day as a full round action, and the result increases to 1d6. At 13th level you may use this ability x3/day as a standard action, and the result increases to 2d4. At 19th level you may use this ability x4/day as a move action, and the result increases to 2d6.
Unlocked Potential: At 7th level, you gain your choice of the focused weapon advanced weapon training ability or the trained throw advanced weapon training ability as a free bonus ability.
Penetrating Weapons: At 13th level: all weapons you have chosen for weapon training groups are always treated as adamantine, cold iron, magical, and silver for purposes of overcoming hardness and DR. In addition, you gain penetrating strike as a bonus feat.
Penetrating Swarm: At 19th level: as a swift action, you may grant your penetrating weapons ability (affects any weapon they wield during this time) to all allies within 30' for 1 minute. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to your INT modifier (minimum x1/day).
Tactics: Tacticians are masters of planning and communication. They are the ones who not only concieve a battle plan and communicate it to their allies, but also the ones most likely to notice when something goes awry and make adjustments accordingly.
Bonus Feats: gain skill focus (influence) and any 1 teamwork feat as bonus feats. You must meet the prerequisites of the chosen teamwork feat.
Advanced Planning: At 1st level, Influence becomes a class skill. In addition, x1/day as a free action upon entering combat, you may grant all allies within 15' (but not yourself) advantage on their 1st initiative check that round. At 7th, 13th, and 19th level, this ability is usable an additional x1/day and the range limit increases by +15'.
Tactical Training: At 7th level, you gain your choice of the fighter's tactics advanced weapon training ability or the armored confidence advanced armor training ability as a free bonus ability.
Leader of Men: At 13th level, you gain a bonus teamwork feat that you meet the prerequisites for. In addition, when you activate your advanced planning ability, each affected ally gains a bonus move action on that round that can only be used to move.
Leader of Armies: At 19th level, as a full-round action action, you can grant all allies within line of sight that can see or hear you advantage on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks they make until the start of your next turn. You can use this ability a number of times each day equal to your CHA modifier (minimum 1), but no more than once per encounter. This ability can affect a total number of allies equal to twice your fighter level.
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the time to don, hastily don, and remove any armor he wears by 1/2 normal. In addition, he chooses 2 specific types of armor (leather, breastplate, platemail, etc) and reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), he chooses another type of armor to gain this bonus, and these bonuses increase by +1 for all previously chosen types. Also see advanced armor training below.
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains Damage Reduction 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield. Any armor or shield he wears has it's hardness increased by his highest armor training bonus, and it's hitpoints increased by twice that amount. In addition, his armor training bonus increases by 1 (or he gains an additional advanced armor training option).
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon group that he has at least a +1 weapon training bonus with. Any attacks made with weapons associated with that group automatically confirm all critical threats, and have their critical damage multiplier increased by 1 (to a maximum of x5). In addition, the fighters weapon training bonus increases by 1 (or he gains an additional advanced weapon training option).
For D&D/Pathfinder: The only ones I've ran or played in that didn't last until level 20 and beyond, were when real life got in the way of the game (work schedule change, marriage, childbirth, couple moved to another state, etc).
However, my core playgroup of 5-6 people have been together for roughly 30 years, with others sprinkled in throughout the years. For guys/gals who mostly play PFS or pick-up games at the local hobby shop/collage campus/whatever, and ones that've only been gaming for 2-3 years, I suspect that that number is much lower than 20.
I don't see how do you not read cast a spell as a swift action as casting a swift action spell?
Not thinking you were anti-psionic, sorry if that's the way it came off. I'm actually glad to see someone else on here supporting Ultimate Psionics.
A 20th level cleric casting mass heal cures 200 HP to any number of creatures in range (no set limit on number of targets) + removes a boatload of conditions at the same time, for a 9th level spell. If applied to 6 targets that's 1200 HP of healing, if applied to 30 targets, that's 6000 HP of healing. compared to that, the vitalist is losing big time... except for the greatly enhanced range of the collective (multi-dimentional at 19th level IS a bit much, but how often is that really gonna matter), which IMO brings them back to roughly even.
If you really compare all the Vitalist abilities and power selection to all those of the other Main Healers (Clerics and Oracles, and to a lesser extent Druids), [BAB, hitpoints, mysteries, domains, spell selection, weapon/armor prof, etc] the Vitalist actually seems to be slightly weaker in overall power, but much more flexible with the power that it has.
That to me is true with all of the psionic classes. They're slightly weaker overall than an equililant non-psionic class, but more flexible with the power that they have. That's also what makes them better IMO than the non-psionic classes. Not the power, but the flexability.
The changing powers known each day is basically the same thing as a cleric choosing different spells each day from the cleric spell list and not at all broken.
Those 5 PP you spent on biofeedback for the whole party costs the equivalent of 5 1st level powers, or 1 3rd level power. Once you realize exactly how finite a resource PP are, this can become a problem if you spend all your PPs on it and have none left to actually manifest your powers when needed.
you also seem to be forgetting the golden rule of psionics (Page 137 in Ultimate Psionics): that you cannot spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level. so at 20th level your body adjustment example costs you 19 PP (3 for the power, 4 to network it to 4 additional collective members, +4 for maximize, +2 for empower, +6 to augment it 3 times(you can't further augment it 'cuz that would put you over your limit of 20PP), and would heal all 5 of you for 90 HP each (4d12 maximuzed and empowered). That's more PP than manifesting a 9th level power. A far cry from being broken.
As long as you keep the golden rule of psionics in mind, none of the Vitalist's abilities are anywhere near broken.