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Childeric, The Shatterer's page

134 posts. Alias of james knowles.


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I was really hoping that the landscape sheets from way back in the playtest would make the final cut. They were so cool and unique, but now we're stuck with another boring (and ugly) portrait layout.
I am however, looking forward to the character sheet packs. And I do wanna say thanks for making the "printer-friendly" black and white ones for us to download.


Aunders wrote:
Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:

Shouldn't this have been like the 1st starfinder product, instead of coming in a year or so later?

Better late than never I guess.
Yes and no. While yes, it would have been great to have a starting box from the get go, they also had to create the game before hand. Putting all of the rules and what not together in one book was a mythic task in itself, and then they had to gauge the customer reaction to the product to see if it warranted such a product. I assume Paizo sees Starfinder as a selling good-enough selling product to spend the time and energy on a starter box now, as well as upping their production times with more releases this up coming year. I get your point, but I also believe the Pathfinder beginner box didn't come out with the first edition of Pathfinder and came along much later.

I can see the logic in that.

To me Pathfinder was similar enough to DND 3.5 that no beginner box was necessary out of the gate. Starfinder, however, seems different enough to warrant one from the start, to help teach the system.


Shouldn't this have been like the 1st starfinder product, instead of coming in a year or so later?
Better late than never I guess.


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If I can spend general feats to pick up the multi-class feats, I can get behind this. Pick up some off-class abilities without sacrificing my main class stuff, sweet.

My guess is however, that the dedication feats cost class feats, which diminishes my main class to pick up those off-class abilities, which sucks.


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The Devs keep repeating how turning all aspects of the game into feats opens up tons of design space for moving forward, but to me it just seems like lazy design. "I don't feel like actually designing this race/class/archetype/prestige class/spell/whatever, so let's just turn it into a series of feats and call it a day".
Makes me think that instead of books like APG, ultimate magic, and ARG all of the non-bestiary splatbooks for 2.0 will just be "big book of feats volume 1, volume 2, volume 3, etc".

I'm really hoping that actually seeing the whole playtest book will make it make more sense and not seem so bland, but I'm not very optimistic about it.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
For example: I can't tell what Paizo thinks a task being "trivial" means, and it doesn't jive at all with my own personal definition.
The playtest rules thoroughly define each category. Trivial basically means if this is the DC and the whole party can try it and only one person needs to succeed, it would be incredibly unlikely that no one succeeds. For instance, even an untrained 1st-level character with 10 in the stat, likely the worst you have, is 50/50 at the level 1 trivial (a trivial task of a level is actually roughly defined as "Something a totally uninvested character of that level would be at about a coin flip to do"). Even if an entire party of four was built that way with no one invested at all, it's still only a 1 in 16 chance they don't have someone make it. Trivial DCs are relevant enough to be on the chart because someone probably will fail it if everybody has to roll it and all who fail experience some interesting result of failure.

Trivial: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seriously 'tho, trivial to me is not a 50/50 coin flip. Trivial to me is something the average joe could do 85-90% of the time without even trying. I'll leave the actual number crunching to those obsessed over the math (lord knows there's plenty of them), but to me, it just seems off.


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man, by the time you guys get to revealing the Human (the only non-revealed aspect that I wanna see), I'll already have the playtest book and won't need the preview.


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Paizo seems to have an aversion to printing things I want to see, so my post-CRB wish list consists of only 2 items.

[1] A conversion guide from 1.0 to 2.0, kind of like the one they put out when switching from 3.5 to pathfinder.

[2] The new compatibility license, so awesome 3rd party companies like Dreamscarred Press & Rogue Genius Games can keep putting out the stuff I actually want to play.


Maxed out at level 6? Hell, most of my games don't even start til levels 3-5. I can't imagine never going higher than that, wow.


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Voss wrote:

Yeah, different characters at different experience levels and more importantly, power levels depending on if/when/how they multi-classed is a terrible idea. Thats a huge balancing act that is very difficult to manage, generally some will fall way behind or skip well ahead.

It's pretty much completely non-viable with the goal of keeping the math and bonuses in step.

You would've hated 1st edition DnD then. lol.

As to the OP's topic:
What I would like: I don't see a problem with the current multi-class system, so keep it as is. casters having to give up "precious" spell levels to get other stuff has never been a problem for me (as a DM or player).

What do I expect: since EVERYTHING in 2.0 seems to be based on/around feats, I expect multi-classing to work very similar to VMC from 1.0... only worse. I say worse because, you'll likely not be able to grab other class feats with your general feats, but will have to give up your limited class feats to do so, thus diluting your original class in the process. VMC in 1.0 is a pretty weak option, but at least you don't have to give up your original class features to do it.

What do I know: thusfar, nothing except that it exists in some form in 2.0. Like most of 2.0, I'm hoping for the best while expecting the worst.


The best thing about this IMO, is that it shows that the developers are paying more attention to the needs of the DM. in 1e, far too much content seems to be aimed at players only, while DM's get left in the dust.
I also like how this combines well with the new downtime system for those who want to chase down those uncommon and rare items.


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CorvusMask wrote:

Huh interesting what they have done with 1e core book casters. Seems like previous martial casters(paladins and rangers) are now just martials, even alchemist(not from 1e core) got turned into its own thing rather than being weird pseudo caster. Meanwhile the five original core casters seem to now follow this pattern: four of them have spell list unique to their theme(arcane = wizard, cleric = divine, bard = occult and druid = primal) and fifth one is generalist that can use any of them depending on bloodline.

It makes sense to make bards level 10 casters if they are now the "occult" rather than "just" funny magical music men

That said, Bard Supremacy(which has always been a thing) is now official :D

It would have made more sense to me to make sorcerer the full Occult caster to further differentiate them from wizards, and have the bard (as the jack of all trades class) be the one that could mix it up with different spell lists depending on his muse (or something similar).


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I've kinda sorta been doing this for years. Everything in the core book is common and readily available at normal costs; hardcover splat-book (APG, ultimate magic, etc) are uncommon and may or may not be available for +25-50% normal cost; all other splatbooks/3rd party stuff is rare and seldom available at +100% normal costs.

It's worked great to allow player's to occasionally get a shiny new toy, without overloading myself as the DM with too much extra work.


Finally something in 2nd edition that isn't just something else stripped down into a bunch of feats and regurgetated back up.

But, seriously, Resonance seems to me to be a lot like VMC in 1st edition: a really cool concept that lacks proper design and implementation.
Hopefully the actual playtest will work out all the bugs...or just convince them to scrap the idea and use the perfectly fine 1st edition magic item system.


On multi-classing: I kinda hope it does work like VMC. I thought that was a cool system, but with a poor execution. It always felt like they had this neat idea, but due to time constraints/lack of playtesting/whatever, the implementation fell short. 2nd edition, gives them the opportunity to fix that.

Another thing I want to say is that (as evidenced by my pessimistic remarks in most of the playtest blog threads) even 'tho overall I don't like how 2nd edition is shaping up, one thing I do appreciate is the fact that Paizo seems to be trying to take high level play into consideration and make it an integral part of the new game from the ground up. Given how high level play was basically ignored in 1st edition, this is a welcome change for those of us who like to play (or hell, sometimes even start games) at level 11+.


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Am I the only one that absolutely hates that practically EVERYTHING in 2nd edition has been reduced to a freaking feat.
racial abilities: nope, they're ancestry feats now so you have to be a 7th level dwarf to get what 1st level dwarves used to get for free.
automatic improved skill abilities: nope, they're now skill feats that you have to take in order to do the same stuff you could do for free just for putting ranks in the skill.
class features: nope, they're now class feats that you have to take just to acquire the class features you used to get for free.
archetypes: nope: they're now feats you have to take instead of taking one of your limited class feats.

I realize that one of the goals of 2nd edition was to simplify and streamline character creation, but there must have been a better way to accomplish that goal.


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Hi, I'm a monk. My special abilities are called Ki Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a cleric. My special abilities are called Domain Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a wizard. My special abilities are called school powers and allow me to cast spells.

Anyone else see the resemblance to 4th edition and the way they made every class homogenized, boring and the same?


Love: that fear now automatically lessens over time, so you can get back into the fight and perhaps even contribute.

Hate: that quickened grants different types of bonus actions depending on the source of the condition. Just make it 1 bonus action across the board and be done with it.

Meh: new number stacking vs old progressively worse conditions. IMO, the old way was pretty simple and easy to keep track of, and this new way looks just as simple and easy to keep track of.


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TheFinish wrote:
Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:

I skipped a bunch of pages due to the flame wars emanating from them, so...

The legendary feats look amazingly overpowered, but you only get a limited number of them (3-6 I believe), so it's not like you're pulling these legendary stunts with everything you do all day long.
If they applied to every single thing your PC ever did, I'd be totally against them. but occasionally being able to do something amazingly overpowered is pretty damned cool.
So, as long as the accessability limit remains, I'm fine with them.

If you're a normal dude you get 3 Skill Feats past level 15 (where you can first get Legendary Proficiency). If you're a Rogue you get 6.

Still, Cat Fall shows you don't need a Legendary feat to do something bananas, though that just moves the house rule from "No Legendary Feats" to "No Legendary Proficiency" which is easy enough to do.

Besides, how often does the need to "fall from orbit without taking damage" actually come up in a game? maybe once every 5-10 years (that's actual real-world years, not game downtime years)? I really don't see it being an issue.


I skipped a bunch of pages due to the flame wars emanating from them, so...

The legendary feats look amazingly overpowered, but you only get a limited number of them (3-6 I believe), so it's not like you're pulling these legendary stunts with everything you do all day long.
If they applied to every single thing your PC ever did, I'd be totally against them. but occasionally being able to do something amazingly overpowered is pretty damned cool.
So, as long as the accessability limit remains, I'm fine with them.


I was hoping for some more low-level examples (you know stuff that will actually get played and used) instead of the focus on Legendary stuff, which likely will never see play at most tables.

PossibleCabbage wrote: "I feel like taking Assurance in something you plan on being legendarily competent at is sensible, since "take 30" is pretty good."

As long as it doesn't take 30 times as long to perform the check like taking 20 in P1e took 20 times as long.


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Halfling sorcerer 12/barbarian 1. Contingency set to trigger Enlarge Person when she "wolfs-out" into hybrid form. Causing her to transform from a 3' halfling into a 9' raging werewolf, that's now charging at the enemy.
Not the most "optimized" use, but the look on the DM's (and imagined look on the NPC's) face was priceless.


Are the characters going to be children as well, or are the kids playing adult PCs?

If the former:
Perhaps a witch kidnaps the pets, not to eat them, but to lure the kids into her stew pot instead.

Or, perhaps another child from the town who was bullied/an outcast took the pets as revenge.

If the latter:
Perhaps a pied piper type of bard came through town and enchanted all of the towns pets (not just the PCs) and they must figure out what happened.

Or Perhaps a local farmer forgot to introduce his son's new pet to the farm Dvorovoi(bestiary 5 or the PRD bestairy index) and the creature took offense and talked the other Domovoi and Dvorovoi in the area to take the pets until a formal apology is made.

Hope these ideas help, have fun.


Meh, too little, too late.
However, fast-forward approximately 1 year. IF this was announced as the 1st splat book for 2.0, I'd say It'd be an auto purchase for nearly everyone who switched to the new edition.


Just wondering if you've made any progress on this?


In Unchained they combined Sense Motive and Perception into just Perception.
In my homebrew version of the consolidated skills from Unchained, I combined Handle Animal and Ride into a separate skill called Husbandry (I know it's not an exact translation, but it made more sence to me than folding ride into Acrobatics and HA into Nature).


Time Thief from super genius games/rogue genius games/whatever the hell they're calling themselves nowadays: hands down the coolest class ever written, and even 'tho it's 3rd party, Paizo should include it in the core book because of it's sheer awesomeness.
But seriously, of all the actual Paizo classes I'd like to see Oracle, Witch, and Vigilante added in that order. And if the Bard had to be sacrificed to make room for one of them, I'd be ok with that.


Just play Gestalt and get the best of both worlds.


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the blog...meh.
but that illustration, it's like a gremlin on super-steroids...and not in a good way.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:


OFF-TOPIC 1: I'm really not a fan of this new method for generating ability scores. To me it lends itself to having too many cookie-cutter characters that are all the same 'cuz that's the "optimal" combination for the classes main stats. [For instance: why would my Fighter ever take the "scribe background" when the blacksmith one pumps my main stat?]. I see this as especially being a problem in PFS games where people tend to optimize more so than in casual games, but it's still an issue.

The floating stat boost should make this a non-issue to an extent. If you have a scribe background you probably want the +2 int, and you can use the floating boost for strength.

This. Outside of very niche situations, like "I want to be a fighter who studied for scribe, but was dumb as hell and got kicked out before becoming a fighter", this is a non-issue. Logic says that if you want to play a scholarly fighter (which is why you picked scribe), then you probably want a fighter with at least a dash of intelligence. So pick the +2 from scribe to INT, select STR as your other modifier, pick STR from the rest of building blocks (ancestry, class, etc), and you are done.

And for the theorical "I wanted to be a scribe but I was too dumb for it", maybe that character should NOT have scribe background. Explain in your backstory that you tried to be a scholar, but you got kicked, so you learned nothing about being a scribe. Then, after being kicked, you learned something somewhere else (like, you got kicked and become an Urchin).

I think it's flexible enough to accomodate most options, specially with a GM outside of PFS that allow for cosmetic changes like "blacksmithing" allowing "leatherworking" instead of blacksmithing. Yes, you could potentially work hard enough to find situations where it doesn't work, but that's true for most parts of any system. It's easier if you try to buildthings WITH the system instead of AGAINST it.

Then where is my CON boost (a fighter's secondary stat) coming from? I'm not trying to work against the system, but the system (what little we've seen of it) seems more restrictive to character vareity than some of you seem to want to admit to.

Yes, the floating bonuses can help cover some of the gaps, but IMO it's not gonna be enough to prevent the CCC syndrome. Like I said in my original post, I hope the actual playtest material in August proves me wrong. But until then, my opinion stands.


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I skipped like 5 pages so this may have already been said elsewhere.

So each background provides 2 ability bumps, 1 skill feat, and 1 free lore skill. Sounds kind of underwhelming to me. The lore skills especially just seem too niche and may or may not ever come into play.
Now, if they added a starting gear bundle and a relatively weak special ability like 5e backgrounds, then I'd be on board.

OFF-TOPIC 1: I'm really not a fan of this new method for generating ability scores. To me it lends itself to having too many cookie-cutter characters that are all the same 'cuz that's the "optimal" combination for the classes main stats. [For instance: why would my Fighter ever take the "scribe background" when the blacksmith one pumps my main stats?]. I see this as especially being a problem in PFS games where people tend to optimize more so than in casual games, but it's still an issue.

OFF-TOPIC 2: The whole theme of 2.0 thus far seems to be to drop the power level and entrance complexity. Which is cool and truthfully much needed, but they seem to be taking it way too far in that direction for my tastes. I'm still gonna try out the actual playtest in Aug, and I hope that upon seeing the "whole picture" that I'm completely blown away by it...but as of right now, based on what little I've seen, I will not be switching to 2.0. The few Diamonds I've seen thus far do not make up for the sheer amount of worthless coal.


So the Initiate feats from Player's Guide to Faerun (which granted diety-specific spells to forgotten realms dieties back in 3.0) makes a comeback. That's actually pretty cool - not new or innovative, but cool nonetheless.

Anathema: I've been house-ruling this sort of thing for years. Nice to see an official take on it.

Domain Powers: the ones previewed seem weak and boring to me. Hopefully they're not all as lame as those. Otherwise, I'll just have to port over the P1E domain powers.

Spell Pool: I'm kinda unclear on this. Is there a separate pool for using domain powers and channeling? or do all class features draw from the same spell pool?


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Does any DM out there actually keep track of encumbrance anymore?
Is it a PFS thing (I don't play in PFS)?
I personally haven't come across this since 1st edition D&D. Most DM's I've played with in the last 20 years (myself included) simply find it too much of a hassle to keep track of and just hand-wave encumbrance - unless the PC is being completely outlandish (like trying to carry a 6' stone statue or something.


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So it looks like alchemy still sucks for all non-alchemists. But at least they fixed the ridiculously high costs of alchemy items. I'd throw away 3gp for a 1d6 splash weapon, where as before it was never worth throwing away 30gp for the same 1d6.


bump


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So, with this I'd need at least 4 ancestry feats just to play a standard P1E dwarf (hatred, weapon familiarity, poison resist, magic resist). Also no mention if stonecunning is a free basic ancestry trait or if that's a 5th feat needed.
5 feats to gain all the stuff dwarves used to get for free sounds like a load of hot garbage to me. Ancestry feats should provide cool alternate options, not the bare-bones basics of the race.

Hopefully, this changes between now and when the actual 2.0 books drop next year. If not, looks like my group will just stick to 1.0.


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eddv wrote:
But I share your concerns with this and as I tried commenting earlier I am pretty disappointed that stat adjustments (to include vision, speed and hp) and these fairly underwhelming feats are all ancestry gets in terms of mechanics. I feel as though a PC could have all 4 of those feats at level 1 and be just about in line with what a normal race gets in 1e which is a resounding meh. I really do hope there ends up being more to it.

Exactly. It's almost like saying "you can play an Elf, but you don't get low-light vision, magic resistance, or ancestral weapon proficiencies unless you spend these ancestry feats to get those things". So basically you're a generic being chassis with no defining features until you take the ancestry feats to turn you into an average member of your chosen species.


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I skipped a few pages, so forgive me if this has already been said.

I Hate the idea of Paizo goblins as a core race, but IMO, that wasn't the red flag of this blog post. The red flag was how boring and underwhelming ancestry feats appear to be.

Burn It: could be cool if the damage boost is significant or scales with level -both of which I doubt.

Junk Tinkerer: so I can make a broken, fragile improvised weapon? why wouldn't I just use a normal improvised weapon that isn't broken or fragile and save the feat slot for something useful.

Razor Teeth: This is probably the best of the 4 listed. a free bite attack sounds pretty cool, right? and might be if it's an extra attack, but more than likely it still counts against my 3 actions, which is less cool. Still, being always armed can be an advantage, so this one doesn't completely suck.

Very Sneaky: so I can use stealth to move 15 feet instead of 10 feet (assuming that you round down, 1/2 of 25 feet base speed is 10 feet), not all that impressive for spending a feat slot on.

If this is any indication of the overall scope and power underpowered level of ancestry feats in general, I fear players will only take them when forced to.


The Good: what I like about the P2E info so far.
[1] The revised action economy is nice. I still think it sucks that high level martials get screwed out of their 4th attack (even if that attack rarely ever hits, it was at least something that martials had that no caster got), but overall this is a much better system than in P1E.
[2] Revised crafting rules (both for mundane and magical items) are a welcome inclusion, as IMO those rules never quite worked right in P1E.
[3] Perception no longer being a skill, but an ability everyone gets to use is an awesome change.

The Bad: what I dislike about the P2E info so far.
[1] My biggest concern from what I've seen so far is that it seems EVERYTHING is tied to whether or not you have a specific feat. Makes me think that a lot of the stuff all characters can do normally in P1E, will be impossible (or at least severely ineffective) in P2E without the correct feat. And that, IMO, is a horrible direction to go in.
[2] Also, goblins as a core race make no sense to me - especially not pathfinder goblins. Paizo went out of their way to make goblins chaotic, murderous, insane little bastards (which was fantastic), and now all of a sudden, we're supposed to believe that they've become civilized enough to interact with the other core races on an equal and worldwide accepted level...I'm just not buying it.
[3] Having your initiative check based on "whatever the DM wants it to be, based on what you were doing before combat" instead of being based on a static ability is another huge mistake, and opens the door for too many confusing arguments and DM fiat calls.

The Ugly: what I hope to see in P2E
[1] I really, really hope that the P2E core barbarian, monk, and rogue are based on the P1E unchained versions of those classes instead of the P1E core versions.
[2] More robust mounted combat rules and options. They've hinted that more combat styles will be more viable in P2E, but I don't recall seeing anything specifically mentioning mounted combat.
[3] This one's a long shot, but...Venetian spellcasting replaced with spell points, similar to, no exactly the way psionics works in ultimate psionics.


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(1) Warrior of Holy Light [Paladin]: To me, 4 level casters are kind of pointless. This archetype removes the spellcasting and provides other cool abilities that are better themed to the base character. I've made this archetype the new core paladin in my games.

(2) Skirmisher [Ranger]: For the exact same reasons as listed above.

(3) Monk of the Empty Hand [Monk]: Improvised weapons are cool thematically, but totally suck mechanically. This archetype changes that.

(4) Scrollmaster [Wizard]: "I attack with my rolled up piece of parchment, have at you". This ones just too weird to not consider.

(5) Dervish Dancer [Bard]: I like that this turns the bard into a self-buffer instead of the standard party buffer for a nice change of pace (The same reason alchemists are so cool).

(Honorable Mention 1) Bladebound [Magus]: This archetype is a true roleplayers dream...and possibly nightmare.

(Honorable Mention 2) Altho not archetypes, I'd like to see Bardic Masterpieces and Variant Channeling become a core part of Bards and Clerics respectively.


pennywit wrote:


1) Is it true you are drawing inspiration from Synnibarr?

*pulls out his World of Synnibarr Core book and thumbs thru it*

God I hope not. I love that game, but it's not what I want from my Pathfinder Rules.


As a huge fan of the original rpg from the 90's, I can't wait for this to drop.


So $55 for the dungeon set+expansion and another $55 for the forest set+expansion. That seems kinda pricy, but probably cheaper than trying to go back and get all of the old map packs.


This is my version of the fighter class. I made it not only to give the fighter a slight power boost, but also a flavor boost. Its only been played in one game so far and we're only at level 3, so I don't have a lot of play-test feedback yet, but feel free to dissect it and tell me what you think.

Just note a couple of things:
1) I use the consolidated skill system from unchained (with a couple of homebrew skills added).
2) I use the advantage mechanic from 5e (if you have advantage on a roll, you roll twice and keep the highest result; if you have disadvantage on a roll, you roll twice and keep the lowest result).
3) Advanced armor/weapon training are baked into the class, however, I changed, removed, or added new abilities as I thought neccessary to fit my campaign, and there's too many to list here.
4) due to formatting issues, I'm not including the whole class write-up, only the parts that I've changed dramatically, and my new class features.

Spoiler:
HD, BAB, and Saves: no changes.
Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Craft (Int), Husbandry (Cha), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Warcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + 1/2 Int modifier.

Lvl Special
1 Weapon Training, Martial Calling
2 Bonus Feat, Battlefield Politics +1
3 Armor Training
4 Bonus Feat
5 Weapon Training (or Advanced weapon training)
6 Bonus Feat, Battlefield Politics +2
7 Armor Training (or advanced armor training)
8 Bonus Feat
9 Weapon Training
10 Bonus Feat, Battlefield Politics +3
11 Armor Training
12 Bonus Feat
13 Weapon Training
14 Bonus Feat, Battlefield Politics +4
15 Armor Training
16 Bonus Feat
17 Weapon Training
18 Bonus Feat, Battlefield Politics +5
19 Armor Mastery
20 Bonus Feat, Weapon Mastery

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields). In addition, he is proficient with all exotic weapons listed under his chosen weapon training categories.

Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Teamwork Feats, or Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Battlefield Politics (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear, Influence checks to feint in combat, Influence checks to demoralize an opponent, and Perception checks to sense motives. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (5th*, 9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. (For example, when a fighter reaches 5th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 1st level).
Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from his group. This bonus also applies to the fighter’s Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm steal and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
In addition, any feat the fighter selects that normally applies to a single weapon (such as weapon focus or improved critical) apply to all weapons in the chosen group. If a weapon belongs to more than one group, the fighter must designate which group he is applying this effect to when he selects the feat. Also see advanced weapons training below.

Martial Calling (Ex): Beginning at 1st level the fighter must choose one of the following martial callings to follow: Assembly, Logistics, Munitions, or Tactics. Each choice offers a couple of bonus feats as well as a special ability gained at 1st, 7th, 13th, and 19th level.

Assembly: these are the artisans and craftsmen who make and repair the armaments that keep the wheels of war spinning. Their keen eye for detail also allows them to develop an insight into when something is visually out of place.

Bonus Feats: choose skill focus in 2 of the following: craft (armor, bowyer, weapons, or siege engines), knowledge (engineering), or profession (architect, engineer, or soldier).

Architect's Insight: At 1st level. Perception becomes a class skill. In addition, you gain advantage on perception checks to notice secret or hidden doors, mundane traps, and unusual stonework. This ability stacks with any similar ability such as trapfinding or stoncunning. If you gain 2 instances of advantage on the same check, you roll 3 times and keep the highest result of the 3.

Advanced Craftsmanship: At 7th level, you gain your choice of the master weaponsmith advanced weapon training ability or the master armorer advanced armor training ability as a free bonus ability.

Craftsman's Insight: At 13th level, you gain the Artificer's Touch (Sp): domain power, treating your fighter level as your effective cleric level. In addition, you add 1/2 your fighter level as a competence bonus to the 2 skills you chose skill focus feats for at 1st level.

Mystic Architecture: At 19th level, your ability to notice when things are out of place extends to magical "misalignments". You gain advantage on saving throws vs Illusions and all Perception checks (not just the ones listed in your architect's insight class feature). A number of times per day equal to your WIS modifier (minimum 1) as a swift action, you may grant this ability to all adjacent allies for 1 minute.

Logistics: Logictics is the study of movement and how it affects both individual combatants and entire armies. Fighters with this calling are masters at knowing the best way to get from point A to point B with the least amount of effort or resistance.

Bonus Feats: you gain nimble moves and either fleet or run (choose one) as bonus feats.

Pick up the Pace: At 1st level, The distance you travel when using local movement or overland movement is increased by +25%. In addition, any CON checks required for making a forced march recieve a +4 bonus. You may take a full-round action to grant this ability to a number of allies within 100' equal to your level +WIS modifier for 24 hours. At 7th, 13th, and 19th level the number of allies you can affect with this ability doubles, and the distance increases by an additional +25%.

Close Combat Manuvering: At 7th level, , you gain your choice of the fighter's reflexes advanced weapon training ability or the armored finesse advanced armor training ability as a free bonus ability.

Charging Logistics: At 13th level, when the fighter takes a charge action, he may make a full attack at the end of that charge; and when he takes a withdraw action, he may make a single attack at any point during his movement. x1/day as part of a charge or withdraw action, the fighter may grant this ability to all adjacent allies for 1 round. At 19th level, he may do this x2/day.

Nimble Swarm: At 19th level, your nimble moves, fleet and run feats gain the teamwork type. In addition, as a standard action, a number of times per day equal to your DEX modifier (minimum 1) you can grant those feats to all allies within 60' for 3 rounds.

Munitions: Munitions experts are masters at maximizing damage potential. Whether by increasing the accuracy and damage dealt by weapons; assisting allies in dealing more damage; or even finding weapons when none are normally available.

Bonus Feats: you gain catch off guard and weapon focus as bonus feats.

Battlefield Scrounging: When you or an adjacent ally use the aid another action in combat, the bonus is increased by your highest weapon training bonus. In addition, at 1st level: x1/day you may spend 1 minute to search a freshly vanquished foe, or the area of a recent battle (no more than 3 rounds ago) to find 1d4 arrows, bolts or sling bullets. At 7th level you may use this ability x2/day as a full round action, and the result increases to 1d6. At 13th level you may use this ability x3/day as a standard action, and the result increases to 2d4. At 19th level you may use this ability x4/day as a move action, and the result increases to 2d6.

Unlocked Potential: At 7th level, you gain your choice of the focused weapon advanced weapon training ability or the trained throw advanced weapon training ability as a free bonus ability.

Penetrating Weapons: At 13th level: all weapons you have chosen for weapon training groups are always treated as adamantine, cold iron, magical, and silver for purposes of overcoming hardness and DR. In addition, you gain penetrating strike as a bonus feat.

Penetrating Swarm: At 19th level: as a swift action, you may grant your penetrating weapons ability (affects any weapon they wield during this time) to all allies within 30' for 1 minute. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to your INT modifier (minimum x1/day).

Tactics: Tacticians are masters of planning and communication. They are the ones who not only concieve a battle plan and communicate it to their allies, but also the ones most likely to notice when something goes awry and make adjustments accordingly.

Bonus Feats: gain skill focus (influence) and any 1 teamwork feat as bonus feats. You must meet the prerequisites of the chosen teamwork feat.

Advanced Planning: At 1st level, Influence becomes a class skill. In addition, x1/day as a free action upon entering combat, you may grant all allies within 15' (but not yourself) advantage on their 1st initiative check that round. At 7th, 13th, and 19th level, this ability is usable an additional x1/day and the range limit increases by +15'.

Tactical Training: At 7th level, you gain your choice of the fighter's tactics advanced weapon training ability or the armored confidence advanced armor training ability as a free bonus ability.

Leader of Men: At 13th level, you gain a bonus teamwork feat that you meet the prerequisites for. In addition, when you activate your advanced planning ability, each affected ally gains a bonus move action on that round that can only be used to move.

Leader of Armies: At 19th level, as a full-round action action, you can grant all allies within line of sight that can see or hear you advantage on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks they make until the start of your next turn. You can use this ability a number of times each day equal to your CHA modifier (minimum 1), but no more than once per encounter. This ability can affect a total number of allies equal to twice your fighter level.

Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the time to don, hastily don, and remove any armor he wears by 1/2 normal. In addition, he chooses 2 specific types of armor (leather, breastplate, platemail, etc) and reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), he chooses another type of armor to gain this bonus, and these bonuses increase by +1 for all previously chosen types. Also see advanced armor training below.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains Damage Reduction 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield. Any armor or shield he wears has it's hardness increased by his highest armor training bonus, and it's hitpoints increased by twice that amount. In addition, his armor training bonus increases by 1 (or he gains an additional advanced armor training option).

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon group that he has at least a +1 weapon training bonus with. Any attacks made with weapons associated with that group automatically confirm all critical threats, and have their critical damage multiplier increased by 1 (to a maximum of x5). In addition, the fighters weapon training bonus increases by 1 (or he gains an additional advanced weapon training option).


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I'd prefer to use minis and dungeon terrains(prepainted, due to lack of talent and patience on my part), but my gaming budget only allows me the use of pathfinder pawns and flipmats/map packs.


For D&D/Pathfinder: The only ones I've ran or played in that didn't last until level 20 and beyond, were when real life got in the way of the game (work schedule change, marriage, childbirth, couple moved to another state, etc).

However, my core playgroup of 5-6 people have been together for roughly 30 years, with others sprinkled in throughout the years. For guys/gals who mostly play PFS or pick-up games at the local hobby shop/collage campus/whatever, and ones that've only been gaming for 2-3 years, I suspect that that number is much lower than 20.


I don't see how do you not read cast a spell as a swift action as casting a swift action spell?
Anyways, I said how I interpret the wording, you obviously read it differently. Since you're the DM in this particular game, your opinion is the only one that matters, So I'll just agree to disagree with you on this point and wish you good luck with your game.


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Not thinking you were anti-psionic, sorry if that's the way it came off. I'm actually glad to see someone else on here supporting Ultimate Psionics.

A 20th level cleric casting mass heal cures 200 HP to any number of creatures in range (no set limit on number of targets) + removes a boatload of conditions at the same time, for a 9th level spell. If applied to 6 targets that's 1200 HP of healing, if applied to 30 targets, that's 6000 HP of healing. compared to that, the vitalist is losing big time... except for the greatly enhanced range of the collective (multi-dimentional at 19th level IS a bit much, but how often is that really gonna matter), which IMO brings them back to roughly even.

If you really compare all the Vitalist abilities and power selection to all those of the other Main Healers (Clerics and Oracles, and to a lesser extent Druids), [BAB, hitpoints, mysteries, domains, spell selection, weapon/armor prof, etc] the Vitalist actually seems to be slightly weaker in overall power, but much more flexible with the power that it has.

That to me is true with all of the psionic classes. They're slightly weaker overall than an equililant non-psionic class, but more flexible with the power that they have. That's also what makes them better IMO than the non-psionic classes. Not the power, but the flexability.
Anyway, that's what I think.


Emerald Spire is a great "superdungeon" for the pathfinder ruleset
Also if you can find it: Rappan Athuk: the dungeon of graves, is a 3.0/3.5 3rd party superdungeon that's well worth tracking down.


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The changing powers known each day is basically the same thing as a cleric choosing different spells each day from the cleric spell list and not at all broken.

Those 5 PP you spent on biofeedback for the whole party costs the equivalent of 5 1st level powers, or 1 3rd level power. Once you realize exactly how finite a resource PP are, this can become a problem if you spend all your PPs on it and have none left to actually manifest your powers when needed.

you also seem to be forgetting the golden rule of psionics (Page 137 in Ultimate Psionics): that you cannot spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level. so at 20th level your body adjustment example costs you 19 PP (3 for the power, 4 to network it to 4 additional collective members, +4 for maximize, +2 for empower, +6 to augment it 3 times(you can't further augment it 'cuz that would put you over your limit of 20PP), and would heal all 5 of you for 90 HP each (4d12 maximuzed and empowered). That's more PP than manifesting a 9th level power. A far cry from being broken.

As long as you keep the golden rule of psionics in mind, none of the Vitalist's abilities are anywhere near broken.

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