And should a half-dragon shark be given the amphibious property? Since one of its parents breathed air.
Not this crap again.
People argued that they should get a tail when they played the Human + Racial Heritage (Kobold) + Tail Terror = Human with Tail Attack combo, and we already had the Antipaladin Developer come out and say that it doesn't work that way.
To which point, I'm just going to say read these posts as to why they wouldn't/shouldn't get free limbs to claw attack with.
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That kind of thing is really up to GM interpretation. You could make reasonable arguments either way regarding it, though.
I'm of the opinion that if a template grants claws, you get appropriate limbs for those claws. A half-dragon T-rex gets arms large enough to support making claw attacks. A half-dragon shark has fins that are elongated, and partially arm-like in order to facilitate them, but in such a way as to perfectly fuse elements of shark and dragon.
If you don't want to, that's cool too. Again, it's all about interpretation, and which you think makes the most sense.
Not this crap again.
People argued that they should get a tail when they played the Human + Racial Heritage (Kobold) + Tail Terror = Human with Tail Attack combo, and we already had the Antipaladin Developer come out and say that it doesn't work that way.
To which point, I'm just going to say read these posts as to why they wouldn't/shouldn't get free limbs to claw attack with.
There is a difference in a creature taking a couple of feats and trying to extrapolate new limbs and a creature having a template added to it that would clearly drastically alter its genetic make-up.
There is a difference in a creature taking a couple of feats and trying to extrapolate new limbs and a creature having a template added to it that would clearly drastically alter its genetic make-up.Not this crap again.
People argued that they should get a tail when they played the Human + Racial Heritage (Kobold) + Tail Terror = Human with Tail Attack combo, and we already had the Antipaladin Developer come out and say that it doesn't work that way.
To which point, I'm just going to say read these posts as to why they wouldn't/shouldn't get free limbs to claw attack with.
When those "couple of feats" are something that "clearly drastically alter its genetic make-up" based on how they function and their flavor text, they aren't really that different.
The first feat doesn't say that and people just extrapolated that being able to qualify for the second changed the genetic makeup.
Since all half-dragons get wings in Pathfinder, I'd let armless half-dragons make wing attacks that do the same damage as the claws. Just my interpretation.
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I can see the fins growing into sharper appendages that deal damage. I can also see it growing claws because it's a template and not a feat. Of course, the claws would be like a badger or wolverine with no way to grab and hold something, but I would allow either one. Whichever the player thought would fit the concept better.
You only get what the template gives you. Some give you natural attacks. Some do not.
So you get the attack, but not the tail. If I count my metaphysical hands for attacks, I'm darn well going to hit you with a metaphysical tail!Not this crap again.
People argued that they should get a tail when they played the Human + Racial Heritage (Kobold) + Tail Terror = Human with Tail Attack combo, and we already had the Antipaladin Developer come out and say that it doesn't work that way.
To which point, I'm just going to say read these posts as to why they wouldn't/shouldn't get free limbs to claw attack with.
For Two-Weapon Fighting. Which doesn't include Natural Weapons. You can't ever Two-Weapon Fight with Natural Weapons.
@ the David: Gaining limbs is different from gaining natural attacks, and I already linked a developer post stating how and why that is.
He can rule the creature to function however he wants because Rule 0. But the factor is that under normal circumstances, a creature cannot use a natural attack for which he doesn't have an appropriate limb for, even if he has a special ability that says he gains natural attacks.
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Well... The designer that you say is the final rule (other than rule 0) is talking about feats. Not templates. Two very different things. Also, he gave this little nugget of wisdom;
"In summary, when we write the rules, we do intend a level of reason and even common sense. We have to, because instead of making things "air-tight." Personally I believe, and have always believed, that one of the benefits of tabletop RPGs is to allow the mind and the imagination to breathe. Often we don't feel we need to codify such things in rules, because the logic is (we suppose) easily apprehended by the mind and the common sense of it is pleasing to the imagination."
So... common sense would dictate, if a dragon mates with a shark and the offspring has the half-dragon template that apparently (I haven't read the template) grants a claw attack, it should have claws to make said attack. Use your own "mind and imagination" as the developer said and imagine a shark with wings, an elongated tail and a pair of claws... better yet, look at images of oriental river or sea dragons. Don't state that a developer said NO, so nobody can do it unless the GM makes their own rules. First off, the rules aren't "air tight" so GMs have to make their own rulings up to and including changing rules for their own games. Second... you're comparing apples and oranges in your argument as to why you say it's against the rules. Templates and feats are different.
Now, you can say, you don't think it should be allowed and that's fine. But don't come out of the gate with an attitude because the question annoyed you and post a link citing the developer's rule is law... especially when his ruling was for a different issue and the end result was basically, use common sense and make a ruling that's fun for you.
I also agree that it wouldn't gain the ability to breathe air since it's not granted by the template. You could say that it's an unwritten rule that it can breathe air because dragons are a very magical race.
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Usually templates shouldn't really be considered so much rules as helpers for GMs in creating monsters. AS such, it is really up to you.
From a pure 'rules' perspective what we are concerned with primarily is keeping the challenge rating balanced. As such, making sure that we keep the claw attacks would be appropriate.
Technically, I don't think the half-dragon shark can breathe water at all, since the type changes to Dragon and nothing is mentioned about retaining sub-types. I would however probably give the the aquatic suptype and the amphibious special quality, partly because I can't really see using a half-dragon shark anywhere but in the water, and amphibious won't really change the challenge at all. Typically things that have a movement mode can survive quite well using that movement mode, and a half-dragon shark can fly, to breathing air makes perfect sense.
Note that if a player ability is applying templates, it is much more of a 'rules' thing then if a GM is using templates to create monsters. A GM can, fully within the rules, create all sorts of unique monsters in just about any way they would like.
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Technically, I don't think the half-dragon shark can breathe water at all, since the type changes to Dragon and nothing is mentioned about retaining sub-types.
It doesn't mention losing subtypes either, though. In my experience, templated creatures with subtypes have type lines like "CE Medium outsider (augmented humanoid, human)". Since (aquatic) isn't unique to animals, (augmented animal) is likely unnecessary, presumably leaving us with "N Medium dragon (aquatic)".
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That could be an oversight. They may have just not been thinking about strictly aquatic critters.... Or it may have wings that don't work. Either way, it's still the purview of the GM. Strictly by the book and nothing else, due to wording, you're right that it can't fly. I would rule that it can though.
In other words, GMs don't need rules.
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I feel like increasing its swim speed would be a good use for the wings. Penguins swim pretty fast, after all
Taking this a step further a "shargon" would be to sharks and dragons what owl bears are to bears and owls. It's original fins would become limbs for the claw attacks and its wings would propel it through the water and on lands(like a wyvern that swims instead of flies). Alternatively it could move like a flying fish.
If it has a fire breath weapon it works just like the little coral dragon's breath weapon underwater: boiling water. This gives it an area effect that works both on land and in water, so ships should beware.
You have a new monster and all you did was slightly alter a template. ^_^