|
What Philippe said. At level 1-2, Harsk is a perfectly acceptable character when you need some wild empathy and no one wants to play a druid or whatever.
Anything else means a new player is likely going to have a bad time, or an experienced player is opting for hard mode. The latter is fine if the party is cool with it, the former is a problem.
|
...but can tiny bird communicate with party or snipe from far away?
1 chirp= Deadly fight ahead, break out all the buffs
2 chirps= difficult fihght ahead3 chirps= rent a mooks
4 chirps= Possible social encounter. Send the face.
If you need a specific spell, dig the material components out of the wizards spellpouch.
in reality knowing more is useful but the game really doesn't take that into account beyond a vague surprise round.
I think nosig has hit it on the head, Harsk needs a good 'set-up' but few parties are willing to give it due to the ever-escalating push of the 'rocket-tag race'.
The set up simply doesn't work given the mechanics of the game and where they differ from reality.
Someone standing still unaware is only moderately easier to hit than someone that knows you're there
Someone with half their spleen sticking out fights exactly as well as someone that is springtime fresh, and is not, you know. Dead.
Someone with an arrow sticking out of them is only moderately annoyed
1) most parties are not set up to take advantage of stealth. A party LOSES action economy when they send someone forward to sneak and take the first shot, then the enemy returns fire while the party moves up.
2) Even if the party is rather sneaky, sending the entire party up sets off 5 stealth checks, one of which is going to be low enough to be heard (because probability is a harsh mistress)
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
...but can tiny bird communicate with party or snipe from far away?I think nosig has hit it on the head, Harsk needs a good 'set-up' but few parties are willing to give it due to the ever-escalating push of the 'rocket-tag race'.
Lini has a range of 120 ft. If you switch her build around she can do it while wildshaped but her best ranged option does have that range.
|
Lini has a range of 120 ft. If you switch her build around she can do it while wildshaped but her best ranged option does have that range.
...but can tiny bird communicate with party or snipe from far away?I think nosig has hit it on the head, Harsk needs a good 'set-up' but few parties are willing to give it due to the ever-escalating push of the 'rocket-tag race'.
Are you talking about spell ranges? What spell?
entangle has a range of Long... so that would be 400 +40/level. And is one of her prepared spells at all levels... or are you talking about something else?
entangle is actually a good spell to use with shooting. Drop it on the bad-guys and stand back and plink them to pieces. Or even back up and plink them even more. Even when they make their save, it slows them down. I've seen a wand of entangle being called "a Wand of Slowing the Enemy Down" - cause even with the DC11 save they couldn't get out of the AOE before the caster dropped another one. All the while the party was shooting them to pieces...
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
Lini has a range of 120 ft. If you switch her build around she can do it while wildshaped but her best ranged option does have that range.
...but can tiny bird communicate with party or snipe from far away?I think nosig has hit it on the head, Harsk needs a good 'set-up' but few parties are willing to give it due to the ever-escalating push of the 'rocket-tag race'.
Are you talking about spell ranges? What spell?
entangle has a range of Long... so that would be 400 +40/level. And is one of her prepared spells at all levels... or are you talking about something else?
entangle is actually a good spell to use with shooting. Drop it on the bad-guys and stand back and plink them to pieces. Or even back up and plink them even more. Even when they make their save, it slows them down. I've seen a wand of entangle being called "a Wand of Slowing the Enemy Down" - cause even with the DC11 save they couldn't get out of the AOE before the caster dropped another one. All the while the party was shooting them to pieces...
I was talking about produce flame which isn't a bad spell in off itself. Its just the range is pointless.
|
|
I was talking about produce flame which isn't a bad spell in off itself. Its just the range is pointless.Lini has a range of 120 ft. If you switch her build around she can do it while wildshaped but her best ranged option does have that range.
...but can tiny bird communicate with party or snipe from far away?I think nosig has hit it on the head, Harsk needs a good 'set-up' but few parties are willing to give it due to the ever-escalating push of the 'rocket-tag race'.
Are you talking about spell ranges? What spell?
entangle has a range of Long... so that would be 400 +40/level. And is one of her prepared spells at all levels... or are you talking about something else?
entangle is actually a good spell to use with shooting. Drop it on the bad-guys and stand back and plink them to pieces. Or even back up and plink them even more. Even when they make their save, it slows them down. I've seen a wand of entangle being called "a Wand of Slowing the Enemy Down" - cause even with the DC11 save they couldn't get out of the AOE before the caster dropped another one. All the while the party was shooting them to pieces...
now I am confused. Lini doesn't have produce flame prepared, so unless you are switching out her spells (something I have had several judges not allow) she doesn't have it available.
edit: and why do you feel the range is pointless?
|
|
I'm kind of in the school of anecdotal experiences isnt evidence of his usefulness. people might lie, misremember, embellish, or just get lucky, statistics dont. The combat statistics of Harsk dont seem to justify his use as a combat character. Yes he can do other things such as spot MECHANICAL traps (not magic), track, handle animals, serve as a "stealther" or whatever, but what he spends most of his feats on just arent worth it is the way it seems.
Anyone can spot any kind of trap. The only thing is you need trapfinding to disable a magical trap.
|
|
I'm kind of in the school of anecdotal experiences isnt evidence of his usefulness. people might lie, misremember, embellish, or just get lucky, statistics dont. The combat statistics of Harsk dont seem to justify his use as a combat character. Yes he can do other things such as spot MECHANICAL traps (not magic), track, handle animals, serve as a "stealther" or whatever, but what he spends most of his feats on just arent worth it is the way it seems.
but you are willing to except anecdotal experiences as to his lack of usefulness?
so, let us check the numbers shell we?
among the Core 1st level pregens, he is only surpassed in ranged combat (with weapons) by Ezran using Hand of the Apprentice. He is only tied by Merisiel with a dagger.
Amiri? shortbow +2 for 1d6
Lem? sling +3 (1d3-1) with his singing he can get this up to +4 for 1d3
Kyra? sling +0 (1d4+2)
Lini? sling +2 (1d3-2)
Valeros? shortbow +3 (1d6)
Sajan? Shruiken +2 (1d2+3)
Sheelah? shortbow +1 for 1d6
Harsk? hvy xbow +4 for 1d10,
Merisiel? Dagger +4 (1d4)
Seoni? Dagger +2 (1d4) - but wait, she has acid splash so she would get a +2 ranged touch doing 1d3... (but ha! bad feats again - spell focus Evocation? what good is that at 1st level?)
Ezren? Lt Xbow +2 (1d8) ... he also has acid splash and spell focus evocation again... BUT WAIT! he also has Hand of the Apprentice! so he gets a +5 to hit with a ranged attack doing 1d6! We have a winner! Ezren! yeah! Looks like you should have taken the Wizard as "someone to handle ranged combat"...
can someone else check the rest of the Pregens? I'm sure if we check them ALL we can find someone better at shooting at 1st level... or with a higher damage potential? At range please, as he is built as a ranged Ranger...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm kind of in the school of anecdotal experiences isnt evidence of his usefulness. people might lie, misremember, embellish, or just get lucky, statistics dont. The combat statistics of Harsk dont seem to justify his use as a combat character. Yes he can do other things such as spot MECHANICAL traps (not magic), track, handle animals, serve as a "stealther" or whatever, but what he spends most of his feats on just arent worth it is the way it seems.
anyone can SPOT magical traps in pathfinder, removing them is what requires trap spotting.
|
|
I'm kind of in the school of anecdotal experiences isnt evidence of his usefulness. people might lie, misremember, embellish, or just get lucky, statistics dont. The combat statistics of Harsk dont seem to justify his use as a combat character. Yes he can do other things such as spot MECHANICAL traps (not magic), track, handle animals, serve as a "stealther" or whatever, but what he spends most of his feats on just arent worth it is the way it seems.anyone can SPOT magical traps in pathfinder, removing them is what requires trap spotting.
Trapfinding, trap spotting from trap spotter lets you get a free check within 10ft of a trap.
|
|
Here's my take. (and what I did)
I shifted his focus from a heavy cross bow, with the substituion of one feat to Exotic WEapon Prof: Heavy REPEATING crossbow..
and my version works JUST fine.. and aside from his 1/2 rounds xbow attacks Harsk is pretty flexible
My version, however, is a solid drinker of ale and other things fermented. sober teetottler dwarF?
That breaks my immersion. :D
|
|
She's quite functional. Yes the accuracy is lame, but you don't need your moves for anything so you're free to reposition and try to bypass cover and then you just have in combat, but you're targeting touch so it kinda balances out to normal AC.
Since she's functional it's unlikely to change, so if you don't like it pick a different pregen. I highly recommend Crowe.Saying Yoon is functional is like saying a Fighter is functional with only one arm, he can still swing his morningstar.
Point Blank is +1 to hit and damage _all the time_. Because PB is range 30', and that's all the range Yoon has until she gets Extended Range.
Worse, you are saying, 'just move and get a better shot'. As long as the enemy is in melee, the -4 applies, wherever Yoon may be. Getting a clear shot removes the _other_ -4, the one provided by soft cover (her party melee members). Giving up 20% of a chance to hit 90%-95% of the time is not 'accurate enough'. A Kineticist is a ranged striker. She gets her DPR not through boosts like Two-Handed Weapons or Power Attack; she gets her DPR via lower actual damage and higher accuracy. In short, higher throughput.
The point about Toughness boosting her hit points by 25%, and keeping her alive long enough to make levels is well taken. I wouldn't make that choice, but I can see it.
To the people who are saying, 'don't take in that pregen': you are missing the point. Why would anybody who understands the class set it up this way? Somebody at Paizo did this.
I think you are confusing the word "functional" with "optimized." You need to be former in PFS but not the latter.
Yoon is my favorite Pre-Gen to play. Despite no PBS or Precise Shot she has still been quite effective the times I have played her. From an RP perspective she is gold. What other Pre-Gen can you play where you can legitimately say, "It's not my fault! You left me unsupervised!"
I love she has ranks in Intimidate. Last time I played her I got to plop myself down in the middle of a bureaucrat's desk and say, "Y'know Mister? I'm a nice little girl. And I don't like burning people. But GomGom here, he's not so nice. And he likes to watch things burn when he doesn't get his way. Don'tcha GomGom? So maybe you shouldn't make GomGom mad. There's a lot of paper in this office."
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
I think Harsk would have been better with ranged combat if he just settled for a light crossbow. The slower loading time just isn't worth the extra step in the damage die IMO.
How would this give a faster firing? At level 1 and 4, he would still fire once per round, because he can't reload any faster. Admittedly at level 7 he would get an iterative, but he would be trading a lower damage die for an iterative.Which may or may not be an even trade (depending on the enemy.)
Fought bravely with 7th level Harsk twice, first time he fought off a Finger of Death for which I was glad I wasn't the target. The second time we were with a Dazing Wizard who basically soloed the adventure while the rest of us watched, so the rest of us were as 'worthless' as Harsk. In neither case did Harsk die nor the party fail. The same can't be said for the 7th level Ninja who died from 'friendly fire' (falling while unconscious into a pit conjured by a PC sorcerer in our party).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yoon is a pretty great pregen, in my experience. Her leack of Precise shot does cause some complications and should be acknowledged, but her early access to an AoE spell means that she has options to deal with that. Some fight layouts will absolutely work against you, but that isn't any different than 5 foot wide hallways denying most of the party access to the action. Overall, her build is very solid for a fire kineticist, and among all the pregens, the one I would be most likely to recreate (with minor alterations) as one of my own characters.
Her reliance on Fire is iconic and fun, but the prominence of resistances/immunities will be frustrating. One particularly obnoxious surprise boss fight made me vow to GM baby my own fire kineticist until he's at least level 3.
Harsk is a meme. Simple as that. He can be a very fun meme, but the table has to know what they're in for. He feels like he got the "leftovers" of the pregen design (since I presume Paizo wanted a good spread of races and iconic fighting styles to differentiate them. Looking at other pregens shows at least a functional, flavorful baseline.) I GM a decent amount and I carry each PFS pregen for the sake of completion, but I always give a strong warning to new players when they consider Harsk, Valeros, or Merisiel (who I see as the best possible way to make a Core Rogue, but sneak attack is very frustrating for new players.)
Belafon - I'm in. Although a party of only Harsks, maybe we should be open to a seventh player for racial reasons?
I've done this before and it was actually a ton of fun. We were only speaking in "HARSK" like we were pokemon or something. Of course, we were only playing a quest, and we were all aware that we were playing as a meme-theme dream team.
Fixing Harsk isn't a thing that's likely going to happen, but I like to dream. Also, if I were ever coerced into playing Core, I could kill two birds with one stone: We can fix him and Valeros with a simple class swap. Valeros is a ranger, easy access to two weapon fighting and Favored Enemy works better with mismatched weapons than Weapon Specialization. Harsk is a fighter with a light crossbow, and now he has enough feats to function and then some. Plus, dwarves in plate are awesome.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
To the tune of modern major general
The wizards spellbooks thinner than the the sharp edge of reality
with valeros dual wielding calling miss is mere formality
The one to pick I fear I must prognosticate
with cons that low i doubt at all they can coagulate
Why anyone would play a toon this bad remains a mystery
I can't believe you'd tolerate them in your character history
with Merisiels lack of social skills you will achieve
a little less p a then if you'd maxed out ranks in basket-weave
That I'd rather eat an otyug may speak to my neurology
but the saranite is limited to healing methodology
the thought of picking any one of them's unbearable
Harsk is bad beyond the worst but every pregens terrible.
(and this is why i souldn't listen to xkcd while on the forums)
Whoa.
*genuflects repeatedly*
|
|
Unfortunately harsk with a light crossbow would need rapid reload, a non core feat.You must mean Crossbow Mastery or something else, right?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Tim Hitchcock, Colin McComb, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Huh weird. Both nethys and pfsrd list it out of ultimate combat.
|
Unfortunately harsk with a light crossbow would need rapid reload, a non core feat.You must mean Crossbow Mastery or something else, right?Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Tim Hitchcock, Colin McComb, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Huh weird. Both nethys and pfsrd list it out of ultimate combat.
Still doesn't obviate the fact that Harsk has rapid reload, no matter where its from.
|
I finally work up the intestinal fortitude to read the "lousy pregen" thread and it's complaining about YOON??
Yoon's pretty darn good. I think the spell penetration feat's just there to keep her from being too optimized relative to what a player's unique character might have. One of the goals of the pregens, I thought, was to be competent but to still give players an incentive to create and customize their own players.
Likewise with Amiri, the Large bastard sword isn't optimal and she suffers for it, but she's still a two-handed-weapon barbarian.
Harsk, on the other hand... sure, if people want to play a round of Harsktoberfest that's fine, but I've seen too many new players give up on Pathfinder because they picked a bad pregen and couldn't directly apply damage to their enemies and feel useless. Harsk is one of those pregens. At least he has rapid reload now.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I finally work up the intestinal fortitude to read the "lousy pregen" thread and it's complaining about YOON??
Yoon's pretty darn good. I think the spell penetration feat's just there to keep her from being too optimized relative to what a player's unique character might have. One of the goals of the pregens, I thought, was to be competent but to still give players an incentive to create and customize their own players.
Likewise with Amiri, the Large bastard sword isn't optimal and she suffers for it, but she's still a two-handed-weapon barbarian.
Harsk, on the other hand... sure, if people want to play a round of Harsktoberfest that's fine, but I've seen too many new players give up on Pathfinder because they picked a bad pregen and couldn't directly apply damage to their enemies and feel useless. Harsk is one of those pregens. At least he has rapid reload now.
"At least he has rapid reload now." ???
Is there a version out there where he didn't have rapid reload? My printed pregen copies are kind of old and he has it in those... was he updated after he was first released to give him rapid reload? Did he have something else before? What?
Prior to the NPC Codex, Harsk did not have rapid reload. When that book came out and the Organized Play team spent time getting all the pregens from that book all whipped up for play, they did a remake of Harsk. I don't recall all the changes made, but rapid reload was added at that time.