I've got 2 small questions I hope to get some help with.
If a 7th level wizard takes faith magic and takes barkskin from the defense domain. It would be cast from a level 3 slot.
1: Does it count as a level 2 or 3 spell? To me it feels like a level 3 spell, but the wording feels like it could be read in both ways.
2: If it counts as a 3rd level spell, could it still be used to qualify for the "cast 2nd-level divine spells" requirement for mystic theurge?
The FAQ for skill ranks and BaB suggests it would be possible, but again, that might just be my interpretation because it's favorable for me.
Thanks for the help!
(1) Pretty sure it's a 2nd-level spell for purposes of saves or whatever. The higher spell slot is a penalty, not a bonus.
(2) I'd say anything 2nd level or higher qualifies. The FAQ doesn't quite apply, because spellcasting is not inclusive in the same way, but it would just be silly to allow entry for someone with a level 2 spell but deny it to someone with a higher level spell, given that neither can cast any 1st-level divine spells.
Though the qualification to cast 2nd level Divine and 2nd Level Arcane spells should be met by your proposition, the huge advantage of Mystic Theurge is both your existing divine caster class level and your existing Arcane caster class level improve by one at each Mystic Theurge level and the improving interplay between these two casting classes as you gain levels. But you actually have to have an existing level in a divine casting class to take advantage of this. So why would a pure wizard want to do this at all? The improvement by staying a wizard are way superior to a mystic theurge with no divine spell casting class.
Dip one level in druid or cleric -- it's worth double spellcasting progression ;)
Though the qualification to cast 2nd level Divine and 2nd Level Arcane spells should be met by your proposition, the huge advantage of Mystic Theurge is both your existing divine caster class level and your existing Arcane caster class level improve by one at each Mystic Theurge level and the improving interplay between these two casting classes as you gain levels. But you actually have to have an existing level in a divine casting class to take advantage of this. So why would a pure wizard want to do this at all? The improvement by staying a wizard are way superior to a mystic theurge with no divine spell casting class.
The idea is to be able to start mystic theurge with only one level of a divine casting class with faith magic giving you early entry. Thus, you're only behind one caster level in your primary casting class. It's a very, very solid choice if legal.
There was a thread a while back where we debated being able to cast a single second level spell (like your barkskin) would let you qualify for the class, as you can only cast a single second level divine spell, albeit several times per day. Check with your GM.
There was a thread a while back where we debated being able to cast a single second level spell (like your barkskin) would let you qualify for the class, as you can only cast a single second level divine spell, albeit several times per day. Check with your GM.
I always though that argument was ridiculous. Being able to cast 2nd level spells... It doesn't say PER DAY, PER WEEK, PER YEAR. You have the ability to cast 2nd level spells if you have the ability to cast one second level spell on a renewable basis.
Anyway, I'm of the mind that a 5th level wizard, 1st level (divine caster), can enter Mystic Theurge at level 7 (with Faith Magic) because they cast their divine spell as a '2nd' level spell. Lots of other classes cast spells at differing spell levels, there is no need to split hairs here.
If a wizard uses faith magic to prepare cure light wounds in a 3rd-level spell slot, it's still a 1st-level spell, same as if you had prepared magic missile using a 3rd-level spell slot. You'd need 7 levels of wizard to pull this trick off.
I seem to remember the Powers that be decided that Spell Like abilities can be used to qualify for PreReqs that require the ability to cast certain level spells. Which having almost any of the Assimar heritages would allow for earliar access to Mystic Theurge. So, technically you can go level 1 in each of Wizard and Cleric, and get the ability to cast level 9 spells in each.
I seem to remember the Powers that be decided that Spell Like abilities can be used to qualify for PreReqs that require the ability to cast certain level spells. Which having almost any of the Assimar heritages would allow for earliar access to Mystic Theurge. So, technically you can go level 1 in each of Wizard and Cleric, and get the ability to cast level 9 spells in each.
They decided it... then they re-decided it the other way.
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".
posted February 2015
Just double checked that the SLA can only count either as arcane or divine, depending on when the spell becomes available to that class. with the order going like Wizard, Cleric, Sorc, etc..
This means that you would need either need Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10 and from there going cleric 7/Wizard/3/Theurge (Cleric 17/Wizard 13, equivalent Divine 9th level spells/ Arcane 7th level spells) or vise-versa.
Personally I would go Cleric 5/Sorc 5/Theurge 10 to Gain Devine 8th Level spells/Arcane 7th level spells and also with robes of arcane heritage gain the 9th level bloodline abilities.
You could also end up with 8th level divine and arcane spells.
oh.. turkey turnips!!
oh.. turkey turnips!!
Yeah . . . which leaves faith magic as the odd feat out, since it actually lets you cast a divine spell rather than a spell-like ability.
^Equipment Trick (Sunrod) should work also. It says "Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness." It also works in both directions. Not only is this a double cheeseburger, but it is from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, so it is a bit of a surprise that it hasn't already gotten ErrataNerfBatted.
In contrast, Faith Magic makes you commit to being heavily Wizard-focused. (Note: For this build, you might want to wait until 9th level to start your divine dip and Mystic Theurge, unless your 8th level Arcane School Power is terrible or you are severely constrained in career space.)
Though the qualification to cast 2nd level Divine and 2nd Level Arcane spells should be met by your proposition, the huge advantage of Mystic Theurge is both your existing divine caster class level and your existing Arcane caster class level improve by one at each Mystic Theurge level and the improving interplay between these two casting classes as you gain levels. But you actually have to have an existing level in a divine casting class to take advantage of this. So why would a pure wizard want to do this at all? The improvement by staying a wizard are way superior to a mystic theurge with no divine spell casting class.The idea is to be able to start mystic theurge with only one level of a divine casting class with faith magic giving you early entry. Thus, you're only behind one caster level in your primary casting class. It's a very, very solid choice if legal.
If you were 7th level Wizard + 1 level divine class casting, I concur. However, the example given was a straight up 7th level wizard. That I don't get.
^Equipment Trick (Sunrod) should work also. It says "Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness." It also works in both directions. Not only is this a double cheeseburger, but it is from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, so it is a bit of a surprise that it hasn't already gotten ErrataNerfBatted.
In contrast, Faith Magic makes you commit to being heavily Wizard-focused. (Note: For this build, you might want to wait until 9th level to start your divine dip and Mystic Theurge, unless your 8th level Arcane School Power is terrible or you are severely constrained in career space.)
Oh, that's funny. One could argue that you (temporarily) lose all of your mystic theurge abilities if you run out of sunrods, though.
As for being heavily wizard-focused using faith magic--sure, but you're never more than one level behind in your casting progression for one of the classes. That's not bad at all.
If you were 7th level Wizard + 1 level divine class casting, I concur. However, the example given was a straight up 7th level wizard. That I don't get.Though the qualification to cast 2nd level Divine and 2nd Level Arcane spells should be met by your proposition, the huge advantage of Mystic Theurge is both your existing divine caster class level and your existing Arcane caster class level improve by one at each Mystic Theurge level and the improving interplay between these two casting classes as you gain levels. But you actually have to have an existing level in a divine casting class to take advantage of this. So why would a pure wizard want to do this at all? The improvement by staying a wizard are way superior to a mystic theurge with no divine spell casting class.The idea is to be able to start mystic theurge with only one level of a divine casting class with faith magic giving you early entry. Thus, you're only behind one caster level in your primary casting class. It's a very, very solid choice if legal.
Since OP was only asking about meeting a particular requirement, mentioning the complete entry plan would give context but would be otherwise distracting to the question. The level of cleric has no bearing on whether faith magic can meet the requirement.
Wanna go really crazy? One might argue that faith magic technically makes wizard a "divine spellcasting class"--after all, it's a spellcasting class that grants the ability to cast a divine spell--and thus allows one to build a wizard/witch, wizard/sorcerer, or wizard/arcanist theurge--or, worse, gain two wizard casting levels per mystic theurge level. I dare anybody to try and get away with it, though. Please stream the attempt live on YouTube. I'll keep some popcorn handy.
But was there ever an official clarification about whether "Faith Magic" could be taken to qualify for entry into the Mystic Theurge prestige class? It would typically go somewhat like this:
Level 1 : Wizard 1
Level 2 : Wizard 2
Level 3 : Wizard 3
Level 4 : Wizard 4
Level 5 : Wizard 5
Level 6 : Wizard 6
Level 7 : Wizard 7, arcane discovery (Faith Magic: "Cure Moderate Wounds")
Level 8 : Wizard 7, Cleric 1
Level 9 : Wizard 7, Cleric 1, Mystic Theurge 1
So you would have a divine caster level to progress into AND the ability to cast a 2nd-level divine spell. Or a domain spell? It's not clear. Some official statement ("yes"/"no") on the matter would be nice. They've ruled out spell-like abilities for early entry but "Faith Magic" is not a spell-like ability. Some arcane discoveries are spell-like abilities, yes, but not "Faith Magic". Something about its formulation weirdly seems designed to allow this kind of shenanigans. Now that the 2nd edition is coming out we'll probably never know...
Preparing a spell in a higher level slot does not change its level. So this would not allow you to qualify for early entry into Mystic Theurge.
There are a couple of precedents to this. First is a spell altered by a metamagic feat is still considered its original level. Second is when a caster lacks the Stat requirement to cast higher level spells so uses those slots to memorize spells they can cast. While faith magic does not explicitly state this, it is an established rule so does not need to be restated.
Preparing a spell in a higher level slot does not change its level. So this would not allow you to qualify for early entry into Mystic Theurge.
There are a couple of precedents to this. First is a spell altered by a metamagic feat is still considered its original level. Second is when a caster lacks the Stat requirement to cast higher level spells so uses those slots to memorize spells they can cast. While faith magic does not explicitly state this, it is an established rule so does not need to be restated.
I'm... not sure I get it? To me the issue is more whether the divine spell qualifies as a straight-up divine casting ability rather than its spell level.
Defintion of "Faith Magic" arcane discovery:
Select one spell granted by a domain belonging to the god you worship. This spell must be at least 2 levels lower than the highest-level wizard spell you can cast. When you first prepare your spells for the day, you can prepare this spell once, using a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s actual level. This is cast as a divine spell.
A 7th level wizard can only cast 1 Level-4 arcane spell, but she gets 1 bonus spell slot if she has 18+ INT. So Faith Magic allows her to "sacrifice" these two spell slots and memorize a Level-2 divine spell (e.g. "Cure Moderate Wounds"). Ability to cast at least 1 Level-2 spell in both the arcane and divine spell lists qualifies her to become a Mystic Theurge.
I'm not sure the restrictions of spells affected by metamagic apply there... Metamagic and arcane discoveries are different things. And given that "Faith Magic" outright describes the level of the new divine spell (that is "level of the 2 sacrificed spells" minus 2), it seems to add up.
I do remember that bonus spells obtained through a specialized school were nerfed. Basically a metamagic-modified spell can only be cast with a bonus-specialized-school spell slot if that spell slot is one level higher. For example a metamagic-modified "magic missile" must be cast with a level-2 bonus-specialized-school spell slot. But what does that have to do with "Faith Magic"?
If the original level is that of the domain spell chosen, then the 7th-levelwizard qualifies as being able to cast a 2nd-level divine spell. But if the original level is that of the sacrificed arcane spells, then it's possible to enter into Mystic Theurge even earlier: get a wizard with INT 18+ to Level 3, take the arcane discovery "Faith Magic: Cure Light Wounds" and sacrifice 2 Level-2 spell slots to cast "Cure Light Wounds" as a 2nd-level divine spell.
God I'm confused.
It’s actually quite simple a spell cast in a higher level slot is not a higher level spell. It is simply occupying the slot. Cure light wounds is a 1st level spell so it does not qualify for entry into mystic theurge. The level of the spell is whatever the spell is on the domain list. Cure Light Wounds is a 1st level spell even if you use a 9th level slot. You would need to use cure moderate wounds for it to be considered a 2nd level spell.
This also means sacrificing a 4th level wizard spell permanently. If you no longer qualify for a prestige class you lose all of its class abilities. That would mean until you prepare your 2nd level divine spell in your 4th level wizard slot you do not gain any class abilities of the mystic theurge including the additional caster levels. So you are going to have to prepare a lot of your wizard spells twice a day. An if the wizard is unable to prepare his spells he only gets the cleric spells of the actual level of cleric.
Honestly if a player in my campaign wanted to do it I would not allow it. There are too many problems with it.
I've been talking about "Cure Moderate Wounds" from the very beginning, but, er... thanks.
But are you sure "Faith Magic" consumes the spell slot utterly and permanently? When you first prepare your spells for the day, you can prepare this spell once, using a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s actual level. From the way it was worded, I assumed it just meant you COULD prepare this spell for the day if you wanted to. Otherwise the spell slot can be used to cast a spell of its appropriate spell level normally. There's nothing written here about "losing" a spell slot.
Read in a very strict way, faith magic doesn't qualify. It gives you a level 2 divine spell, granted. However, mystic theurge demands "2nd-level divine spells" - spells, plural.
The following is beyond the rule question, hence in spoiler tags:
But maybe not, given what you lose compared to a "normal" mystic theurge. Most obviously, your entry into the prestige class will be delayed - a wizard 3 + cleric 3 can make it at level 7, you are 2 levels later. That's like a sorcerer 4 + oracle 4 combination, which is usually advised against (though there is potential, it's just tricky).
Further, if you desperately cling to wizard for 7 levels, you won't get any divine spells for healing or status removal for a long time. Finally, you will sacrifice your level 8 school power (might be a serious loss or not) and lag behind on divine spellcasting for the whole time. And what for? If you start with wizard 3 + cleric 3, you can make it to 9th level arcane casting anyway.
The feat works the way you think, that is not the problem. If you do not prepare the spell you are not able to cast 2nd level divine spells. That means you do not meet the prerequisites for mystic theurge. Since you do not meet the prerequisites you cannot use any class abilities from the class. That means you do not get the caster levels the prestige class grant. This is the same thing as having power attack and not having at least a 13 STR. Using Faith Magic will require that you use the 4th level spell slot every day that you want to use the class abilities of the mystic theurge.
Faith Magic does allow you to cast "spells". You can choose any spell your deity grants as a domain spell. So if your deity grants 4 domains you have your choice of 4 different spells. As I said I would not allow that, but that line of reasoning is flawed and does not hold up.
So, would this mean that an 8th level ranger with a 12 wis would not qualify for the divine spell casting requirement of mystic theurge.
At that point the ranger can only cast 1 2nd level divine spell.
With faith magic a wizard would be preparing and able to cast a single 2nd level divine spell. Same as our ranger. The only difference is that the ranger gets to select from a wider array of spells.
Of course, if spell selection is the problem a 4th level sorceror also would not qualify for mystic theurge since at that point they only know 1 2nd level spell. Granted they can cast it a bunch, but they only have one spell to choose from.
If the wizard with faith magic were to use a spell recall item or ability they too would be able to cast their one divine spell multiple times.
I understand it may not "feel" right, but either way you attempt to limit the requirements it forces out other classes that would normally be able to take mystic theruge as soon as they gain access to 2nd level spells. Classes no one would bat an eye at otherwise.
edit: as a side note the feat Dreamed Secrets seems like a divine equivalent to Faith Magic, except that it never specifies that the wizard spell you're casting is treated as arcane and without that wording it makes trying to use it to qualify for the arcane half of mystic theruge shaky at best.
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Read in a very strict way, faith magic doesn't qualify. It gives you a level 2 divine spell, granted. However, mystic theurge demands "2nd-level divine spells" - spells, plural.
The following is beyond the rule question, hence in spoiler tags:
** spoiler omitted **
Oh, but haven't you heard? See it for yourself:
Source : http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxt5&page=2?Qualifying-for-PrCs-using-spel llike-abilities#70
The design team does not consider a prerequisite or requirement of "ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells" to literally mean "ability to cast at least two or more 1st-level arcane spells."
Being able to cast one spell of that type and level meets the prerequisite or requirement (if the prerequisite or requirement was intended to mean "two or more," it would say that, or use language like "at least two").
So yeah, being able to cast only 1 2nd-level divine spell would not disqualify a wizard from embracing a carreer as a Mystic Theurge.
I understand it may not "feel" right, but either way you attempt to limit the requirements it forces out other classes that would normally be able to take mystic theruge as soon as they gain access to 2nd level spells. Classes no one would bat an eye at otherwise.
Good point.
I understand that the Mystic Theurge prestige class was more or less built with the intention of forcing players to sacrifice 3 levels in a class, but using "faith magic" as a workaround requires sacrifices too. Let's compare these two builds:
TRADITIONAL BUILD:
3 levels of wizard and 3 levels of cleric
10 levels of mystic theurge
4 levels of wizard or cleric
Pros :
* Gets cleric/wizard low-level abilities at levels where they're still somewhat useful
Cons :
* Three levels behind in both casting classes starting from level 4
* At level 20, can cast either a) 1 8th-level spell both in arcane and divine, b) 1 9th-level spell in one and 1 7th-level in the other
FAITH MAGIC BUILD:
7 levels of wizard, "faith magic" feat taken at level 7
1 level of cleric
10 levels of mystic theurge
2 more levels of cleric or 2 more levels of wizard
Pros :
* Only one level behind in terms of arcane spellcasting starting from level 8
* At level 20, can cast either a) 3 9th-level arcane spells and 1 6th-level divine spell or b) 1 9th-level arcane spell and 2 7th-level divine spells
Cons :
* Gets cleric low-level abilities at a level where they're really starting to suck
* Requires a feat tax, or rather an arcane discovery tax ("faith magic")
I don't think the Faith magic build is overpowered, or even underpowered for that matter. It just plays differently depending on what you're looking for. Different requirements, different possibilities. Divine spellcasting is less useful but still interesting enough in terms of strategy.