What would happen if a permanent portal opens between Golarion and Krynn?
The situation is the following; the portal opens in 4715 in a Golarion and in Krynn when the planet is bring back to his universe right after the War of the Souls.
The portal is situated in the Kharolis mountains in Abanasinia, Ansalon and in Golarion in the mountains between Varisia and Nintharmas, in a lateral little valley not far from Bloodsworn Vale.
The phenomenon interests just the valley bottom; the two valleys are morphological very similar; going from north to south in Kharolis Valley you can enter in the Avistani one, from south to north in the Avistani one, you enter in the Ansalonian one. The time of the day and of the year it's synchronized. The two valleys are so similar that it's very difficult to understand you are not anymore in the world you came from or even that there is something strange or anomalous, just if you are a ranger you quickly understand, unless so, you fell just a little disoriented till you go out of the little valley. Ovviously if the weather conditions are very different it could be a bit strange; and it you pay attention to the night sky...
At the beginning, due to the very remote position of the reality fracture, in the first months, just animals, outlaws and humanoid passes the portal in both directions; but, probably, at the beginning they think they just discovered a new passage in a different zone of the mountains (someone will note the night sky, fell quite uncomfortable, but will take it as an useless philosophical question). The firsts to take seriously the anomaly would be the fairy in Varisian mountains.
When robbers of both mountains starts robbing travelvers from the other side of the valley (expecialy Avistani travelers, due to the fact that almost no traveler passes in Kharolis mountains except outlaws and some guerrilla elf) they started discovering those people are not from any place they know -to make things easier; Common Tongue in Ansalon is quite similar to Taldan for a synchronic quality of the worlds-. Voices started circulating when those people goes out of the mountains to sell the robberies. Adventurers starts coming from both sides of the fracture. With the reports of the adventurers it's the time of merchants and explorers hired by local nobles and, with other time even quite distant kingdoms.
I wander what kind of changes such an event could have for both worlds.
First think to note is that even if in Ansalon they are maybe harsher people, they are less (probably Solamnia, being biggest nation of Ansalon, has the same inhabitants of Andoran -2 or 3 millions Sol and 3 or 4 And-), with less organized societies and less advanced from a technological point of view; they are recovering from Three Apocaliptic Events in the last 3 centuries, plus the great wirms dominion and destabilizations of magic wave, and things like the fact that in Ansalon steel is as valuable as gold, when, for comparison, the not far from city of Janderoff has steel city walls. Biggest city in Avistan is Absalom, with almost half a million inhabitants and another maybe 20 cities that has more than 50 thousand inhabitants; while in Absalom there is ... None. With Just the Dwarven city of Thoradin, and human Panthalas and North Ergoth Capital and a few other touching 30thousand.
The unic things in witch there is a fair play it's Hight Magic and Clerical magic.
But I don't think there will be an Avistani invasion, due to the fact that the fracture it's quite far from the most militaristic and powerful nations of Avistan (Cheliax, Molthune, Taldor, etc...)
I don't exclude Korvosa or others colonizing portions of Abanabasia, but... not a lot more, for many years, anyway.
My wonders are more about the cultural and economical divergences, let's say, in...20, 30 years. We will see a lot of economic ferment in Abanabasia and than, what?
Great empowerment of Korvosa, of Nintharmas? Molthune invading Nintharmas to reach the portal?
What kind of cultural innovations?
Another 2 themes:
-Magic
-Gods
In Golarion Verse, even a "false" god grant power to followers, because he incarnates in the astral plane. In Krynn only the true gods gives powers.
So, when an Avistani cleric goes to Krynn, what happens? If he follow just a "philosophical ideal as a god", I think he has no powers, but, maybe, if he follow a "real person god", let's say Desna, does he have powers? Or Krynn gods had put a sort of barrier preventing other gods of the D&d/ pathfinder Multiverse powers to filter in Krynn universe? (I tend to think second option more logical)
(Krynn clerics, I think, mantein their powers going to Golarion)
Magic: in Krynn are the 3 moons that gives to the world the Hight Magic. Otherwise there is just Natural Chaotic Magic, a weaker and more difficult force.
Golarion magic is Natural Magic or it is something else?
(I think they are the same because of the ley lines system description.)
Because, if it is the same, Krynn Mages are much more strong on the Krynn planet, but very weak going to Golarion. Can Golarion sorcerers use the Moons magic going to Krynn, or they have to learn how to use the power they give? Because, I think, using the Moons power they'll become much more powerful.
(But I think techniques of Moon's Magic and Natural Magic are totally different -as Palin experience shows-)
And can Golarion sorcerers teach Krynn ones how to use Natural Magic in a more effective way?
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Golarian halflings start fighting Kender because Kender give halflings a bad name.
Sturm Brightblade receives a True Resurrection and becomes a Herald of Iomadae!
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Dragonlance doesn't do the "worship an ideal" thing.
In D&D, I believe (though don't quote me on it for certain, it's been a long time since I read up on the rules) that planeswalkers who travel from one sphere to another - such as from Toril to Eberron to Oerth to Krynn and so on and so forth - can maintain their connection to their home-world's deities for a time, but the longer they're away from their sphere of origin the more their powers will fade.
In some cases if there's a similar enough deity or other form of worship, it might easily just transfer over and the new patron will accept the faith - such as comparing Oerth's Heironeous to FR's Torm or Hexxtor to Bane, as easy examples - but that's not always the case, nor will the patron or the worshiper always allow the altered arrangement to remain. And in some cases there's no equivalent at all - I'm not super familiar with Krynn's deities beyond the magic moon gods and Paladine and Takhisis, so I can't say if they'd have someone ABLE to pick up the slack for a worshiper of Sarenrae, Desna, Abadar, etc., before whether or not there's someone WILLING.
Long story short: powers stay for a time, fade if you don't go home. A divine caster who wishes to keep their powers would need to return to their world of origin on a regular basis, until such time as:
A) they transfer their worship or their patronage is claimed by a deity on the new world
B) their old patron gets tired of sponsoring someone who is away from the world they want to influence and revokes their powers
or C) they fail to return to their place of origin before their powers disconnect.
That's my best recollection of how 3e and earlier handled it, but honestly you are fully 100% in DM Fiat Territory right now. If you want things to work differently, I don't think you'll have any trouble getting people not to argue with you.
Which False gods in Pathfinder grant powers?
I could see Mishakal hosting a cleric for Sarenrae and likewise Morgion or Chemosh for Urgathoa.
At the very least Apsu gets some more worshipers due to how dragon centrist the Dragonlance setting is.
[while sleeping] Hey, sexy mama... Wanna kill all humans kenders?
graystone wrote: [while sleeping] Hey, sexy mama... Wanna kill all humans kenders? and that is why Bender is great and the rest of us, not so much.
Steelfiredragon wrote: graystone wrote: [while sleeping] Hey, sexy mama... Wanna kill all humans kenders? and that is why Bender is great and the rest of us, not so much. Bender: Bender is great! Oh, Bender is great! Bender, Bender, Bender...
Fine, I'm gonna make my own disco club! With blackjack...and hookers... In fact, forget the club.
Ok, ok, I don’t mean FALSE gods (such as Razmiran) in Pathfinder grant powers; I mean that if you strongly believe in an Abstract Principe (if you have faith) and you honestly believe it, if a lot of people believe in it in a strong way, that god manifest itself in the Astral Plane, with powers directly proportional to the faith he/se/it recive, and he can give clerical powers to faithful mortals. So a god can exist even if he isn’t “elected god/ created god/ born as a god/ ascended as a god (born from two gods/ Starstone/ killed another god/ ascended in same way).
A god (or god-like power) in Golarion can simply start existing because people believe in it.
While in Dragonlance it is not so.
And about Magic?
Some idea about how will it work?
I’m thinking about Golarion wizards can’t use the moons Hight Magic, unless they study proper techniques; but maybe they recive a bonus and their spells effects are magnified when is over the orizon the Moon linked to their alignments. But innate arcane spellers entering in Krynn would probably have really really magnified spells effect (because they can use in an intuitive way all the Magic around)
And Krynn wizards going to Golarion can use Magic, just if in Krynn they were able to use natural Magic. But, because of the Natural Magic techniques had been just discovered and still quite rudimental, even a strong wizard would be quite weak in comparison to Golarion Natives. Unless he learn how to.
(At this proposit I think the two communities of wizards will start doing all the possible to learn others type of Magic; in a particular way the Krynn ones; because Natural Magic can be used in both worlds, but Moons Magic is useful just if you are in Krynnspace.
Krynn innate arcane spellers (but it seems to me they are a little minority) probably has initial malus in Golarion, but nothing dramatic.
Someone has different ideas?
And any idea about politic/ economic/ cultural issues?
Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote: Ok, ok, I don’t mean FALSE gods (such as Razmiran) in Pathfinder grant powers; I mean that if you strongly believe in an Abstract Principe (if you have faith) and you honestly believe it, if a lot of people believe in it in a strong way, that god manifest itself in the Astral Plane, with powers directly proportional to the faith he/se/it recive, and he can give clerical powers to faithful mortals. So a god can exist even if he isn’t “elected god/ created god/ born as a god/ ascended as a god (born from two gods/ Starstone/ killed another god/ ascended in same way).
A god (or god-like power) in Golarion can simply start existing because people believe in it.
While in Dragonlance it is not so.
As I recall that is not how it works in Golarion either. You can't worship an ideal and gods don't get power or continued existence from worship.
The NPC wrote: Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote: Ok, ok, I don’t mean FALSE gods (such as Razmiran) in Pathfinder grant powers; I mean that if you strongly believe in an Abstract Principe (if you have faith) and you honestly believe it, if a lot of people believe in it in a strong way, that god manifest itself in the Astral Plane, with powers directly proportional to the faith he/se/it recive, and he can give clerical powers to faithful mortals. So a god can exist even if he isn’t “elected god/ created god/ born as a god/ ascended as a god (born from two gods/ Starstone/ killed another god/ ascended in same way).
A god (or god-like power) in Golarion can simply start existing because people believe in it.
While in Dragonlance it is not so.
As I recall that is not how it works in Golarion either. You can't worship an ideal and gods don't get power or continued existence from worship. Yup. The backstory for the seminal work of the setting is exactly this--the gods basically said "sod off", and *poof* no more clerical powers.
Edit: Dragonlance, I mean. Golarion is the way it is because Paizo said so; I don't know why.
blahpers wrote: The NPC wrote: Luca Eugenio Barlassina wrote: Ok, ok, I don’t mean FALSE gods (such as Razmiran) in Pathfinder grant powers; I mean that if you strongly believe in an Abstract Principe (if you have faith) and you honestly believe it, if a lot of people believe in it in a strong way, that god manifest itself in the Astral Plane, with powers directly proportional to the faith he/se/it recive, and he can give clerical powers to faithful mortals. So a god can exist even if he isn’t “elected god/ created god/ born as a god/ ascended as a god (born from two gods/ Starstone/ killed another god/ ascended in same way).
A god (or god-like power) in Golarion can simply start existing because people believe in it.
While in Dragonlance it is not so.
As I recall that is not how it works in Golarion either. You can't worship an ideal and gods don't get power or continued existence from worship. Yup. The backstory for the seminal work of the setting is exactly this--the gods basically said "sod off", and *poof* no more clerical powers.
Edit: Dragonlance, I mean. Golarion is the way it is because Paizo said so; I don't know why. Golarion is that way because the gods are confident enough in their godness (and don't have stat blocks) so they aren't really driven out of existence by lack of prayer.
Golarion tries to set up checkpoints and a foreign office for cataloging and documenting visiting diplomats and for stemming the tide of visitors but the first two gnomes from Krynn destroy all that when the officials try to write their names down.
Kender and gully dwarves get sent through the portal to Golarian by the newly-formed Krynn Travel Committee, which is really just anyone trying to get rid of kender and gully dwarves. Gully dwarves end up everywhere in Golarian while every single kender eventually makes their way to to Test of the Starstone and by sheer luck, perseverance, and coincidence... somehow all pass in completely baffling fashion, like Cayden Cailene.
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Gully Dwarves are more acceptable then kender IMO. While the authors like to write them as too stupid to live, I prefer to imagine them as dim but survival minded dwarves who can survive despite the trash that gets heaped on them. They know how to find food,water,shelter and the best ways to avoid the draconian armies and are excellent guides. Give them rations,blankets and tools and they will get you through.
Kender deities would make life hell for everyone. No sense of property,fear of consequences or personal space would have them invading everyone's lives. Rovengug would crack the world open after they just HAVE to see what the inside of his prison looks like(Oh hey! now we know how The Gap was formed) cue Sheyln even deciding that it is time to slit some kender throats.
We can assume that the Star Stone has some sort of sorting algorithm. With that in mind I can't help but imagine that Kender who go into the Test come out with a random grab bag of shiny things.
So you say there would be a sort of international comitee?
But who leads it?
Abanasinia is quite on itself and there is a lot of political fragmentation in Ansalom.
And, if North Ergoth, Solamnia, Shallsea, Kender Nations, Elves and Dwarwes can find an agreement. I think Andoran Cheliax and Taldor (not to mention Razmiran and Rahadoum or Nintharmas and Molthune) would never start a Cooperation!!! NEVER!!! For no reason!
But I like a lot the idea of an international comitee on Absalonian side.
I think things could go like this; unless:
-On Ansalon side the Dwarwen kingdom of Thorbrandin, witch is quite near and quite powerful tries to take the Territories around the fracture.
-On Golarion side the Kingdom of Korvosa (that is already trying to colonize the region) tries to take control of the fracture and, maybe to colonize some territories around that, on the other side.
So, I ask to everyone what of the following scenarios for you is more likely (and why):
[The key factor is the time that passes from the notice Goes to nearest kingdoms to the time they tries to do something]
-AFTer one year of time in which just adventurers passes through the portal, Korvosa assumes a lot of debts with Druman Banks, marches toward the mountains, take under his control Varisian mountains, passes the fracture, kicks away or declares as Korvosan subjects the people around it, take under control much of Karolis mountains, the devasted Qualinest and part of the Abanasinia plains. Starts sending colonizers, founds two twin great cities near the Gate; and, most lucrative thing, controls all the trade and movements through the two worlds and (probably) Korvosa become a rich and powerful country.
-AFTer one year of time in which just adventurers passes through the portal, Thorbrandin, dig a tunnel to reach the mountains, take under his control Karolhis mountains and than the Varisian mountains near the fracture, passing the fracture, dwarwes kicks away or declares as Korvosan subjects the people around it. Starts sending colonizers, founds two twin great cities near the Gate; and, most lucrative thing, controls all the trade and movements through the two worlds and (probably) Korvosa become a rich and powerful country. Starts a partnership with Janderoff, by digging a tunnel from the portal to the Varisian Dwarven city. Thorbrandin becomes the most rich Nation of all times in Ansalon (by importing Varisian steel) and Janderoff becomes a great player in Avistan politics.
-AFTer one year both Korvosa and Thorbrandin goes to take control of the portal; the eventually start a war that makes very difficult to travel through the fracture.
-AFTer one year Korvosa and Thorbrandin finds an agreement: each Nation will control his side of the portal.
-TWo years passes; than, the most powerful good Nations of Krynn agree to found a commission for Golarion Affair. They found a big city in Kharolis Mountain called “Mission”.
They found even a city in Varisian mountains called Paladine (as the recently defunct god) to ensure no nation on Golarion side limits travel through the fracture. New cities has both Krynnish and Golarionese immigrants.
Major cultural and economic reinassance occurres in Krynn.
Lenders and gully dwarfs are encouraged to go to live in the new discovered world with a lot of propaganda on Golarion interesting things (for kenders) and rats (for the gully).
New trade route are established in Golarion to reach the fracture. As a reusult, Magnimar, Korvosa, Janderoff and Nintharmas are all empowered.
What version do you prefere or think will be more likely/interesting? And why?
*in option n^ 2 obviously Dwarfs declares people Thorbrandin subjects, and not Korvosan ones.
Lapsus
In Cheliax, where people are not beholden to the 'The wise recognize Kender as precious people'deal engage in mass sacrifice of the rodent and there was much rejoicing.
Gully Dwarves and Goblins hook up, seeing they share similar outcast status and do ok.
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I would rule that there is a barrier in Krynn that blocks the power from outside gods, but that it only really works on demigods. True gods can bypass it. So Andoletta's clerics would slowly lose their power, while the clerics of Sarenrae would be unaffected.
The Golarion gods and demigods would not accept their followers losing their power and they would try to find a way to break that barrier.
Magic in Krynn comes from the moons. This should be reflected by some feat that would allow Krynn mages to increase their power based on the moons. This would make them stronger on Krynn, but weaker on Golarion.
The Towers of High Sorcery would also try to regulate and control the magic users coming from Golarion. The Golarion mages would look at them as a bunch of extorstionists or self gloryfing loons at first. The idea that one organisation claiming to represent ant contain all arcane magic-users would be a ridiculeus boast to them. So the Golarion mages would ignore them, wich would make the Towers pressure harder and things would escalate from there.
The Balance between Good and Evil. This is a key component in the Dragonlance. Golarion lack that and the idea that Good not being opposed by Evil would cause it to become Evil, would look bizarre, bordering on Blue and Orange Morality to the people and gods of Golarion. Cayden would then promptly ignore the Krynn gods and proceed to drink wine and try to beat up Evil.
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