Hi,
so one of my players wants to use the 2nd level spell "Alter Self" to assume the form of a Sewer Troll that has 10 ft reach with its two natural claw attacks and additional perks like scent, darkvision, and lowlight vision.
To be honest I do not feel comfortable to allow a character to just assume any humanoid form just because the player has checked every humanoid race to identify the races with the best mechanic benefits.
So I am asking for knowledge(local) checks. The DC is clear with CR of the creature + 10 (or 5 or 15 depending on how common the race is).
RAW it sais "For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."
So if the player wants a certain common CR1 race because of it swim speed and darkvision, could I ask for a DC 21 (10 base + 1 for CR + 5 for swim + 5 for darkvision) so that the character knows about this race?
This methodology can be applied to other polymorph spells although it gets more and more difficult when the CR increases.
What do you think of this methodology? Do you use another methodology or can you think of another way?
Thanks a lot!
I never really thought about it to be honest. Your method seems fine and fair. It could be argued however that 1. the PC planned ahead of time to know what forms were best for using this spell, and based on that 2. the PC has researched ahead of time.
If this is the case, consider that a PC at rest w/out threat to their life or livelihood can take a 20 on a Knowledge check. Add in spells like Fox's Cunning and Guidance, Aid Another bonuses, and if the PC has access to a Settlement or Business that in turn delivers Circumstance bonuses to a Knowledge check and at level 3 you could easily be pushing a 30+ Knowledge check in the PC's spare time.
If you're looking at the Knowledge skill description re: General Knowledge, the skill suggests that DC 30 is for "really tough" questions. Such a question might be: "what's the absolute best form to turn into if I want to maximize the number of attacks, reach, and senses available to me when I use my Alter Self spell?"
I mean ultimately its up to you as the GM to adjudicate this and I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule in place for this type of situation. I suppose just think: what am I trying to accomplish by keeping my player's Alter Self forms limited?
One other thing: does your player's character have Eschew Materials as a feat? You might wish to enforce that the player actually needs to obtain the material component (i.e. a part of a sewer troll) as opposed to handwaving it: that might allow you to present a story hook where the party hunts down a pack of troublesome predators in the tunnels beneath the city...
Although: what concerns do you have with allowing the player to take that form for a few minutes? What class is the player using the spell? Do you feel that they outclass/steal someone else's schtick by doing so?
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santherus wrote: One other thing: does your player's character have Eschew Materials as a feat? You might wish to enforce that the player actually needs to obtain the material component (i.e. a part of a sewer troll) as opposed to handwaving it: that might allow you to present a story hook where the party hunts down a pack of troublesome predators in the tunnels beneath the city... The component does not have a listed gp value, so the rules say it is included in a standard spell pouch, however odd that may seem. The PC should not need to worry about it unless they lose their spell pouch.
I play an Eberron Changeling and have to actually study a living example to be able to fake it, by campaign rules. This functions much as learning spells and I am limited on how many I can have 'ready' (level number). Being a Wizard, its not my schtick, but a Rogue would put a lot more into it and get far more than my primarily passive disguises.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: the PC planned ahead of time to know what forms were best for using this spell, and based on that 2. the PC has researched ahead of time. This is pretty much it. Anyone planning on using the spell normally plans ahead and looks up some useful forms ahead of time. A good library and time will dig up any creatures info: High DC's aren't a real limit to a caster that has time and a civilized location.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: The component does not have a listed gp value, so the rules say it is included in a standard spell pouch, however odd that may seem. The PC should not need to worry about it unless they lose their spell pouch. Yep. Even alien parts and angel/demon blood are hiding in the pouch: that's if they even need it with Eschew Materials being a thing.
To the OP: I don't really think the extra 'work' to figure out DC's in excruciating detail is needed. Most times the PC wouldn't be using the traditional 'remembering' but 'researching' for the knowledge skill so IMO it's just busy work what can/should be hand waved.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
If this is the case, consider that a PC at rest w/out threat to their life or livelihood can take a 20 on a Knowledge check. Add in spells like Fox's Cunning and Guidance, Aid Another bonuses, and if the PC has access to a Settlement or Business that in turn delivers Circumstance bonuses to a Knowledge check and at level 3 you could easily be pushing a 30+ Knowledge check in the PC's spare time.
You can't Take 20 on knowledge checks
CRB wrote:
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
Which precludes a Take 20, probably a Take 10 as well, especially considering a Bard at Level 5 gains Lore Master
Bard wrote:
Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level.
bhampton: Downtime [Research Facts and Lore] allows you to make three Knowledge checks to discover information and you can expend one of the rolls you haven't used yet to reroll a Knowledge check you failed during this activity.
So DC checks are JUST a time sink and not an actual limiter. Take 20 just speeds up the process. The CRB quote is about what you know and have learned, and research allows you to learn things...
graystone wrote: bhampton: Downtime [Research Facts and Lore] allows you to make three Knowledge checks to discover information and you can expend one of the rolls you haven't used yet to reroll a Knowledge check you failed during this activity.
So DC checks are JUST a time sink and not an actual limiter. Take 20 just speeds up the process. The CRB quote is about what you know and have learned, and research allows you to learn things...
Interesting....but, you still can't take 20, given that it gives you 3 rolls to attempt to find out the information (with the ability to expend 1 roll to re-roll a failed attempt).
bhampton wrote: graystone wrote: bhampton: Downtime [Research Facts and Lore] allows you to make three Knowledge checks to discover information and you can expend one of the rolls you haven't used yet to reroll a Knowledge check you failed during this activity.
So DC checks are JUST a time sink and not an actual limiter. Take 20 just speeds up the process. The CRB quote is about what you know and have learned, and research allows you to learn things...
Interesting....but, you still can't take 20, given that it gives you 3 rolls to attempt to find out the information (with the ability to expend 1 roll to re-roll a failed attempt).
MY point is that you can make 20 rolls which is what take 20 is meant to emulate. You're just making it take longer that's all. If someone wants to find out about a sewer troll, it's only a matter of time before they do if a take 20 roll would make it. [it's just wasting everyone's time to do so...]
graystone wrote: bhampton wrote: graystone wrote: bhampton: Downtime [Research Facts and Lore] allows you to make three Knowledge checks to discover information and you can expend one of the rolls you haven't used yet to reroll a Knowledge check you failed during this activity.
So DC checks are JUST a time sink and not an actual limiter. Take 20 just speeds up the process. The CRB quote is about what you know and have learned, and research allows you to learn things...
Interesting....but, you still can't take 20, given that it gives you 3 rolls to attempt to find out the information (with the ability to expend 1 roll to re-roll a failed attempt).
MY point is that you can make 20 rolls which is what take 20 is meant to emulate. You're just making it take longer that's all. If someone wants to find out about a sewer troll, it's only a matter of time before they do if a take 20 roll would make it. [it's just wasting everyone's time to do so...] Except you can't....given that the rules state you can't retry knowledge checks, and the downtime rules allow only 1 reroll....so unless you're prepared to have your character spend 20 days downtime to research something (which is what Take 20 would require).
CRB wrote: Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common "take 20" skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
Since you can fail a Knowledge check which means you don't have/gain the knowledge, that means, you can't take 20.
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bhampton wrote: graystone wrote: bhampton wrote: graystone wrote: bhampton: Downtime [Research Facts and Lore] allows you to make three Knowledge checks to discover information and you can expend one of the rolls you haven't used yet to reroll a Knowledge check you failed during this activity.
So DC checks are JUST a time sink and not an actual limiter. Take 20 just speeds up the process. The CRB quote is about what you know and have learned, and research allows you to learn things...
Interesting....but, you still can't take 20, given that it gives you 3 rolls to attempt to find out the information (with the ability to expend 1 roll to re-roll a failed attempt).
MY point is that you can make 20 rolls which is what take 20 is meant to emulate. You're just making it take longer that's all. If someone wants to find out about a sewer troll, it's only a matter of time before they do if a take 20 roll would make it. [it's just wasting everyone's time to do so...] Except you can't....given that the rules state you can't retry knowledge checks, and the downtime rules allow only 1 reroll....so unless you're prepared to have your character spend 20 days downtime to research something (which is what Take 20 would require). That is... fairly clearly what they are attempting to do, yes
(I'd say about a week, since they get 3 checks per day)
Renata Maclean wrote:
That is... fairly clearly what they are attempting to do, yes
(I'd say about a week, since they get 3 checks per day)
Fair point on the week rather than month, but....RAW, I don't think they can...again because they can't retry. A failed check on research means the knowledge isn't there to be found. Sometimes regardless of how much time you have, the information just isn't available.
Otherwise a level 1 can take a week and know "Know hidden organizations, rulers, and locations".
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Downtime Research rules are specifically different from the normal knowledge rules. You can keep researching the same subject and gain new info using them afaik.
And if not, then you could simply use the research system from Ultimate Intrigue instead.
Jurassic Pratt wrote: Downtime Research rules are specifically different from the normal knowledge rules. You can keep researching the same subject and gain new info using them afaik.
And if not, then you could simply use the research system from Ultimate Intrigue instead.
Not sure about Ultimate Intrigue.
I don't think you can retry in research though, given it is still a knowledge check, and they specifically mention expending one of three rolls to re-roll a failed check.
-Personally, I'd probably allow a couple re-rolls, especially if they were in a large city, or the PCs made a connection that would enable them to pursue the research from a different angle, but not a Take 20.
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Whether the information is there or not would be based on the location that the research is being conducted, though, not the skill of the character. Their understanding of the research material and ability to find what they're looking for is what the skill check is for, and that's something that can be tried over and over
That falls under GM fiat as there is nothing in the rules regarding that.
Again....given that the CRB rules state no retry for knowledge, and, the downtime rules state that only 1 re-roll is allowed on a failed check (no note on per-day or any other exception to the knowledge skill, which it uses), then we must revert to the CRB ruling on whether a retry is allowed.
I mean, the knowledge rules have never made a lot of sense (as noted cross-thread)
Renata Maclean wrote: I mean, the knowledge rules have never made a lot of sense (as noted cross-thread) And to that, I will definitely agree.
Monster Codex isn't a bestiary. Just tell the player they've gotta pick from the bestiaries because they're carefully balanced by the developers if you think the troll is unbalanced. Rolling to know things for polymorph spells seems like a real buzz kill thing from player perspective. How long did he spend looking through monsters getting excited to use a spell that he picked just to get to the table and not get to do it because of a s#@!ty roll? I'd feel cheated.
Drop that roll thing completely. Either let them or don't let them, being upfront will avoid hurt feelings.
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It really is not that powerful for a L2 Spell. The Claws are 1d4, yes the reach is alot for that level, but not game changing. The abilities gained are nice, but again won't ruin an adventure.
If you really want to not allow it, then just don't. Looks like a Homebrew game and GM can allow/disallow things if needed. Remove the Troll from the list because it is a Giant Sub-Type and upsets balance if you feel the need. Be aware though, that if this player has been researching perfect forms that he may have a planned out character and you should discuss his path before he progresses further, you may have more issues down the line if you don't care for this form.
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