So your opinion is that armor training adds virsatility but not direct combat power (with things like steel headbutt or getting weapons early with that WBL skew) thus the two-weapon fighter is still the superior raw numbers guy?
Steel headbut isn't that great, it's actually quite bad.
An attack that does 1d4+.5xstr at -5 might seem good, but it's like adding a bite as a natural attack. Both deal the same damage and add very little to your full attack damage.
Like at lv 8 20 str with a +2 weapon your main attacks are at like ~18/~13 for 2d6+10 damage, power attack puts it to 15/10 for 2d6+19
The headbutt for these is at ~8 for 1d4+2 or +5 for 1d4+8 (this is assuming it gets full PA and not off-hand PA) because it's not getting weapon focus or greater focus or your weapon training or the +2 weapon bonus so it's at 5 less than your iterative attack. And it's damage is small because of half str and no weapon specialization, no +2 cause magic, no weapon training.
Against a CR 8 enemy with AC 21 the bite is adding 1.89 DPR or 2.7 DPR with PA.
Against a CR 10 "boss" with AC 24 it's adding 1.18 and 1.1
So no, I don't see adding 1-3 damage on a full attack as "direct combat power"
and the WBL skew is completely up to the campaign. All of the games I know about don't allow crafting, and most wouldn't have the weeks of downtime needed to let crafting be useful anyways. Either the GM allows it and it's good or the GM doesn't and it's not an option.
This is why I'm not a big fan of the AAT
My swashbuckler 4 Magus 3-7 can anihilate your barbarians damage with a standard action and he took weapon specialization. So what though? It isn't a fair equation.How much of his damage is he getting from Weapon Specialization? How much from the feat alone on a standard-attack?
2 points.
-- But mention "Weapon Specialization" in any old random thread, and people won't pour out of the woodwork to crap huge, steamy mounds over it like they will Vital Strike (even though in the linked case in question it was generating ~9 pts in a fairly common deployment).
Vital strike is okay if you can get a really big weapon easily and don't full attack much. Now assuming everything hits with the first 2 attacks.
Like a greatsword is 2d6 vital is ~7 damage per use. If you move and hit and then full attack it gave 7 damage. (a large bastard sword with it's -2 to attacks isn't worth the slightly increased damage)
WS gives 2 damage if you move and full attack it gives 6 damage.
Here VS wins.
Throw in haste and WS wins.
Throw in an AoO and WS wins.
wait for more bab and it ties (the 3rd attack counting as 1)
But this is close enough that they are like tied overall. Just one is always applicable and the other is conditional.
But if you break this flow and either need to move more often then it favors VS more, if you get 2 Full attacks in a row because of close quarters or having the casters funnel them all to you then WS gets better.
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I've found Vital Strike useful on builds that are on the lower end of accuracy and have something they can do with a Move action. I've got an Oracle/Warpriest that has trouble hitting sometimes (dipping a 3/4 BAB class on a 3/4 BAB class, and not starting with a high enough strength). I can usually boost my main attack high enough through Divine Favor and other means, but my iterative lags behind. Going Furious Focus, Vital Strike with an Elven Curved Blade means 2d10 or 4d8 if Enlarged. It also means I can do things like cast grace then move around to flank to make sure that big attack hits. But that was more of a patch to the character, and not something I initially planned for. It doesn't mesh as well with the Keen ECB, since the extra dice don't multiply. It brought my damage up into a reasonable range for my level, from somewhat subpar before. I'd like it more if I had more useful Move actions.
Anyway, VS has its place. I don't know if it would be my priority on a Fighter that shouldn't have trouble hitting with iteratives, but it can still be useful for the class.
My swashbuckler 4 Magus 3-7 can anihilate your barbarians damage with a standard action and he took weapon specialization. So what though? It isn't a fair equation.How much of his damage is he getting from Weapon Specialization? How much from the feat alone on a standard-attack?
2 points.
-- But mention "Weapon Specialization" in any old random thread, and people won't pour out of the woodwork to crap huge, steamy mounds over it like they will Vital Strike (even though in the linked case in question it was generating ~9 pts in a fairly common deployment).
Vital strike is okay if you can get a really big weapon easily and don't full attack much. Now assuming everything hits with the first 2 attacks.
Like a greatsword is 2d6 vital is ~7 damage per use. If you move and hit and then full attack it gave 7 damage. (a large bastard sword with it's -2 to attacks isn't worth the slightly increased damage)
Since you use your full bab the -2 on large bastard sword is actually negligible. If you want to build for Vital Strike you want a large impact bastard sword (3d8 base damage) and potions of enlarge person (4d8 damage and reach). Aside from the vital strike chain, useful feats are:
-Power Attack
-Furious Focus
-Weapon Focus
-Greater Weapon Focus
-Weapon Specialization
-Greater Weapon Specialization
-Devastating Strike
The AWT options you need (if allowed) are rather obvious. At level 11 you should be dealing a base of 12d8+10+9+4+4+2+2 damage per vital strike. Not a bad deal considering you can move and strike, fight on the defensive, power attack and still have a great chance of hitting.
you want a large impact bastard sword
Why not use an impact butcher's axe for no -2 and more damage?
you want a large impact bastard swordWhy not use an impact butcher's axe for no -2 and more damage?
Because I forgot it was introduced. Impact butchering axe gives you 4d6 damage base but getting enlarged increases damage to 6d6 per hit, so it works actually, although I dislike the flavour (unless you are planning on an half orc fighter of course).
Is combat stamina a thing?
Because I forgot it was introduced. Impact butchering axe gives you 4d6 damage base but getting enlarged increases damage to 6d6 per hit, so it works actually, although I dislike the flavour (unless you are planning on an half orc fighter of course).you want a large impact bastard swordWhy not use an impact butcher's axe for no -2 and more damage?
*shrug* I don't find the flavor an issue: it was originally an orc made weapon. That doesn't mean the one the character has was made by them, it could be a local variant. Or it could be a war/adventuring trophy of the PC's family. Or it could have been found cheap at a second hand weapon shop or traveling merchant. There are plenty of reasons the PC could have one so the 'flavor' shouldn't be an issue.
My swashbuckler 4 Magus 3-7 can anihilate your barbarians damage with a standard action and he took weapon specialization. So what though? It isn't a fair equation.How much of his damage is he getting from Weapon Specialization? How much from the feat alone on a standard-attack?
2 points.
-- But mention "Weapon Specialization" in any old random thread, and people won't pour out of the woodwork to crap huge, steamy mounds over it like they will Vital Strike (even though in the linked case in question it was generating ~9 pts in a fairly common deployment).
Vital strike is okay if you can get a really big weapon easily and don't full attack much. Now assuming everything hits with the first 2 attacks.
Like a greatsword is 2d6 vital is ~7 damage per use. If you move and hit and then full attack it gave 7 damage. (a large bastard sword with it's -2 to attacks isn't worth the slightly increased damage)
Since you use your full bab the -2 on large bastard sword is actually negligible. If you want to build for Vital Strike you want a large impact bastard sword (3d8 base damage) and potions of enlarge person (4d8 damage and reach). Aside from the vital strike chain, useful feats are:
-Power Attack
-Furious Focus
-Weapon Focus
-Greater Weapon Focus
-Weapon Specialization
-Greater Weapon Specialization
-Devastating StrikeThe AWT options you need (if allowed) are rather obvious. At level 11 you should be dealing a base of 12d8+10+9+4+4+2+2 damage per vital strike. Not a bad deal considering you can move and strike, fight on the defensive, power attack and still have a great chance of hitting.
see this is the vital strike problem. I dont want to do 50d6 while im holding god's letter opener. I'm not a toy soldier in a giant's world, and I don't like wearing the home-made Helm of True Strike. Saitama didn't have nearly as much fun as Goku.
*shrug* I don't find the flavor an issue: it was originally an orc made weapon. That doesn't mean the one the character has was made by them, it could be a local variant. Or it could be a war/adventuring trophy of the PC's family. Or it could have been found cheap at a second hand weapon shop or traveling merchant. There are plenty of reasons the PC could have one so the 'flavor' shouldn't be an issue.Because I forgot it was introduced. Impact butchering axe gives you 4d6 damage base but getting enlarged increases damage to 6d6 per hit, so it works actually, although I dislike the flavour (unless you are planning on an half orc fighter of course).you want a large impact bastard swordWhy not use an impact butcher's axe for no -2 and more damage?
Human's seem to use falchions like they're ray bans but they're supposed to be an orc thing too.
*shrug* I don't find the flavor an issue: it was originally an orc made weapon. That doesn't mean the one the character has was made by them, it could be a local variant. Or it could be a war/adventuring trophy of the PC's family. Or it could have been found cheap at a second hand weapon shop or traveling merchant. There are plenty of reasons the PC could have one so the 'flavor' shouldn't be an issue.Because I forgot it was introduced. Impact butchering axe gives you 4d6 damage base but getting enlarged increases damage to 6d6 per hit, so it works actually, although I dislike the flavour (unless you are planning on an half orc fighter of course).you want a large impact bastard swordWhy not use an impact butcher's axe for no -2 and more damage?
Yes, mechanically everyone can have a butchering axe and can be trained to use one (via exotic weapon proficency feat). That said I don't like it, when what's clearly a racial weapon gets taken by every martial PC out there just because it's the best mechanical option. reminds me of the inordinate amount of fey foundlings who for some reason end up being paladins I guess.
Edit: flavour is never an issue for those who don't want it to be.
...+4 to Initiative
+4 Reflex Saves
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses (also level dependent)
+2 to AC via armor expert (also level dependent)
+3 Shield bonus to AC (assuming a +2 weapon, but see below)
Via weapon spirit.
First off, it seems you have far to many AWT going on, you seem to have Defensive Weapon Training, Weapon Spirit, Armed Bravery, Fighter’s Reflexes, and Trained Initiative. That's 5 AWT out of the 2 you'd be able to have at lv9.Advanced armor training feat at 3 and 7 plus as a class option at 7
Advanced weapon training feat at 5 and advanced weapon training as a class option at 9
That's 5, about to be 6 at lvl 10, 8 at 11I said he had too many AWT, AAT aren't AWT. the barb has just as many AAT as the pure fighter and only 1 less AWT than the pure.
the +4 to initiative is Trained Initiative, an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
the +4 to reflex saves is Fighter’s Reflexes an AWT only ability, not an AAT ability.
+3 shield bonus to AC is Defensive Weapon Training an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
+3 to will saves via bravery bonuses is Armed Bravery an AWT only ability, not AAT ability.
Weapon Spirit is an AWT ability, not AAT ability.And as you said, he only has 2 advanced weapon training possible at lv9. Thus his comparison is 3 over it's limit. He only has 2 and the barb has 1. Next level both gain 1 having the barb still be one behind, then the level after the barb gains one, thus taking 2 levels to catch up that loss as I said.
Yes there are way too many, i simply wanted to exemplify the various options this awesome class feature gives you. At level 10 you could have at best 3 AWT. Like i said earlier I'd probably splurge 3 other feat on an Animal companion. Action economy being king and all.
I could go on and on about the multiclass barb splash being 4% less or more optimal for a frontliner build,
Precisely.
Human's seem to use falchions like they're ray bans but they're supposed to be an orc thing too.
An amazing number of non-elves manage to find Elven curve blades too. ;)
Yes, mechanically everyone can have a butchering axe and can be trained to use one (via exotic weapon proficency feat). That said I don't like it, when what's clearly a racial weapon gets taken by every martial PC out there just because it's the best mechanical option. reminds me of the inordinate amount of fey foundlings who for some reason end up being paladins I guess.
Edit: flavour is never an issue for those who don't want it to be.
But it ISN'T a racial weapon. An 1/2 orc/orc's weapon familiarity doesn't have any effect on it. And even if it was, what does that matter? it's not an exclusive item and there is no reason to exclude it from other races use.
And do you feel the same way with people using darkleaf armor that aren't elves?
EDIT: flavor can always be an issue if you want it to be. It works both ways.
Greatsword Battler
Furious Finish
These are the two feats you need to make Vital Strike builds worthwhile. The first only requires your character to be chaotic neutral. The second however requires Rage. There are three ways for you to obtain Rage as a Fighter:
1.) Multiclass and take a level of Barbarian. (You already said you didn't want to)
2.) Trade out half of your general feats for a Barbarian Variant Multiclass. (Best option IMHO)
3.) Take the Viking Archetype. (Gives up a lot and doesn't stack w/ THF)
Those are your options. You don't have to take Furious Finish if you don't want to, but your damage will definitely be lacking if you don't.
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3) Pounce through coordinated charge, requires +10BAB and some way to pass teamwork feats - like a 3 level dip into paladin (holy tactician).
From Advanced Weapon Training
Fighter’s Tactics (Ex) All of the fighter’s allies are treated as if they had the same teamwork feats as the fighter for the purpose of determining whether the fighter receives a bonus from his teamwork feats. His allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually have the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the fighter to receive the listed bonus.
So taking that at 9th and Coordinated Charge at 10th would work. It's basically Solo Tactics from the Inquisitor.
There are a lot of neat Advanced Weapon Training options. I haven't had a chance to build a character around them yet, but they make Fighters more interesting.
So, I just updated the guide and found the Totemic Initiate, Disciple, and Master feats in Ultimate Wilderness, and it gives you access to a totem chain from the barbarian rage powers.
You gotta take Athletic and not be lawful to do it, but you can get pounce. It costs 4 feats and isn't done until 13th level, but it's there.
-- But mention "Weapon Specialization" in any old random thread, and people won't pour out of the woodwork to crap huge, steamy mounds over it like they will Vital Strike (even though in the linked case in question it was generating ~9 pts in a fairly common deployment).
I'm not crapping huge steamy mounds on it, im commenting that it restricts you to certain weapon types to be a particularly good option. Not necessarily bad weapon types, but standard action attacks are the sort of thing you want to minimize on the average character, especially in situations where you're getting 50% more from a feat and strength that doesn't get multiplied by the vital strike chain. Enlarge person reach and lunge do that remarkably well, and still get the two handed powerattack/strength boosts.
Using a great sword and taking the gorum feat lets you charge with it, freaking solid, charging happens and it lets one feat mitigate the lack of pounce significantly.
Being a heritor knight with a longsword is another, The PRC offers all kinds of standard actions that let you apply vital strike, start of combat partial charges get it, cleave and deadly stroke get it. The PRC is iomedae based and her divine fighting technique works with it too.
But in the face of all of this, its irrelevant to the OP's original question, which granted has been asked/answered. Keep the armor training.
As for the armor crafting option, there's an Advanced armor training that lets you use your BAB as ranks in Craft Armorer, and gives you Master Craftsman, and Craft arms and armor feats, but only for making armor and shields. Obviously best if your gm will actually let you have craft time, but with the DR AAT, half price adamantite full plate, even non magical is probably worth it.
So, I just updated the guide and found the Totemic Initiate, Disciple, and Master feats in Ultimate Wilderness, and it gives you access to a totem chain from the barbarian rage powers.
You gotta take Athletic and not be lawful to do it, but you can get pounce. It costs 4 feats and isn't done until 13th level, but it's there.
But it says that that pounce only works with natural attacks, so not as awesome as it could have been.
No more so than observing that Weapon Specialization is better with extended-threat range weapons (which are typically smaller-die versions of another, similar weapon, e.g., d4 kukri vs d6 shortsword). If you TWF kukris with Improved Critical, you definitely want Weapon Specialization if you're going fighter route.-- But mention "Weapon Specialization" in any old random thread, and people won't pour out of the woodwork to crap huge, steamy mounds over it like they will Vital Strike (even though in the linked case in question it was generating ~9 pts in a fairly common deployment).I'm not crapping huge steamy mounds on it, im commenting that it restricts you to certain weapon types to be a particularly good option.
Not necessarily bad weapon types, but standard action attacks are the sort of thing you want to minimize on the average character,
Well, that's why I do love the Enlarged polearm guys with lots of Combat Reflexes AoOs. -- you don't have to fret over how you're going to get pounce, or have to wait for the wizard to put up a wall to funnel the monsters. You just move to the natural preexisting choke-point, control 50' of battlemat with your reach, and let the monsters chop themselves up on their turn.
Different strokes for different folks.
But in the face of all of this, its irrelevant to the OP's original question, which granted has been asked/answered. Keep the armor training.
Yup. Still think he'd have fun rolling in a level of Savage Technologist, though.
"Hi, Bill. Long-time-no-see. Hey, what's up with the sword? Didn't you used to rock a sweet over-under?"
"I got tired of that damned gun blowing my hands clean off. Not any more. Some other schmuck's problem now."