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The Esoteric Magus gives away a lot for what it receives in return. At first glance it may seem that the price is just too high. However with a 1 class dip the Archetype works quite well. Why does Esoteric work? It works because of style feats.
Ki/Arcane points with Perfect Style and Ki Leech
Being able to use ki as an arcane pool is powerful. When combined with the spell ki leech it gives an easily replenishable source of points to allow for continued use of powers like Accurate Strike. When using Improved or Greater TWF Esoteric get more bang from AS than standard other magus builds because of the additional attacks. The feat Perfect Style opens up an easy to obtain ki pool. This combo works best with an 18-20 crit weapon like a waveblade and Ascetic Style.
Ascetic Style
Unarmed fighting becomes a powerful thing when combined with ascetic style. One of the primary weaknesses of UAS is the poor crit range. Ascetic style removes that problem. To improve crit range to 18-20 try the new Waveblade. The other problem is reach but with a monk chained weapon (double chained Kama, Sickle &Chain) Ascetic style opens that option as well. All with full monk UA damage.
Big Hits with Dragon Style:
The option to focus on strength and big strength mod multipliers opens up from using Dragon style. With 2 dragon style feats the Esoteric can use x1.5 str mod from every attack, x2 for the first one.
Jabbing Style
Since the esoteric is likely using two weapon fighting, they will have a lot of attack so Jabbing Style adds a big bump to damage for builds that are not strength heavy.
The problem with most of these options is that they are feat intensive and the esoteric loses all of its bonus feats. Depending on the build, 1 lvl dip into fighter and/or 1 or 2 lvls into monk solve these feat issues. This makes esoteric a somewhat incomplete archetype but a powerful multiclass option. If the plan is to use Ascetic Style then Unarmed Fighter is a solid option. If you plan to use multiple style feats or advance Perfect style for more than the ki pool then the Monk Master of Many Styles is a good option. If using Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity the unchained Scaled Fist Archetype works well.
See two of many potential samples below:
Build One
01 UnMonk1 [Scaled Fist] Class Feats: (Imp U.Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style*), Human: (Power Attack), Artful Dodge
02 Magus [Esoteric] 1st lvl Spells (of note: Frostbite)
03 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Two weapon Fighting)
04 Magus [Esoteric]
05 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Dragon Ferocity), 2nd lvl spells(of note: Mirror Image)
06 Magus [Esoteric]
07 Magus [Esoteric] Feat (Barroom Brawler)
08 Magus [Esoteric] 3rd lvl spells(of note: Tactical Adaptation)
09 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Improved Two Weapon Fighting), Arcana (Accurate Strike), should pick up Ki Leech wand around now.
10 Magus [Esoteric]
11 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Wpn Specialization), 4th lvl spells(of note: M.Physique II, Paragon Surge)
12 Magus [Esoteric] Arcana:(Spell Blending Arcana to gain Ki Leech or continue using a wand)
Build Two
01 Fighter 1 [Unarmed] Class Feats: (Imp U.Strike, Ascetic Style: waveblade*), Human: (Power Attack), Artful Dodge
02 Magus [Esoteric] 1st lvl Spells (of note: Frostbite)
03 Magus [Esoteric] Feat (Two weapon Fighting)
04 Magus [Esoteric]
05 Magus [Esoteric] Feat (Double Slice), 2nd lvl spells (of note: Mirror Image)
06 Magus [Esoteric]
07 Magus [Esoteric] Feat (Barroom Brawler)
08 Magus [Esoteric] 3rd lvl spells (of note: Tactical Adaptation)
09 Magus [Esoteric] Feat (Perfect Style), Arcana (Accurate Strike), should pick up Ki Leech wand around now.
10 Magus [Esoteric]
11 Magus [Esoteric] Feat (Improved Two Weapon Fighting), 4th lvl spells (of note M.Physique II, Paragon Surge)
12 Magus [Esoteric] Arcana:(Spell Blending Arcana to gain Ki Leech or continue using a wand)
Why would you take TWF? It isn't compatible with Spell Combat, and you already have the functional equivalent with Spell Combat + Spellstrike + Touch Spell.
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Frostbite gets mulitple uses per cast, so to save slots and not waste the spell you TWF.
An example would be at lv4 when you have 4 attacks of frostbite. You spellcombat to cast and attack normally for 2 attacks. Then next round you TWF for the other 2 casts. Thus getting full use of the spell. Otherwise half the spell is wasted.
Now not saying this is the best idea or not, but this is why it's being taken.
Frostbite gets mulitple uses per cast, so to save slots and not waste the spell you TWF.
An example would be at lv4 when you have 4 attacks of frostbite. You spellcombat to cast and attack normally for 2 attacks. Then next round you TWF for the other 2 casts. Thus getting full use of the spell. Otherwise half the spell is wasted.Now not saying this is the best idea or not, but this is why it's being taken.
Good point. I hadn't considered using TWF while holding charges.
If using a Monk weapon, you get to use flurry of blows. I could be wrong but I don't think you can use TWF and Flurry, but flurry is better so why waste a feat on TWF?
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Esoteric Magi can also be really good dubuffers. Consider the following build.
1st Level Human Esoteric Magus
Traits
Magical Lineage (Frostbite), Bruising Intellect
Ability Scores (20 point buy)
STR: 16 (+2 Racial Bonus)
CON:14
DEX:14
INT:15
WIS:10
CHA:8
Feats
1: Enforcer, Rime Spell
First Level Punch
At first level you can potentially deliver all of the following with a single attack:
- 1d6 + 2(STR Mod) + 1(Arcane Pool) non-lethal damage from your Unarmed Strike
- 1d6 + 1 non-lethal cold damage from Frostbite
- the Fatigued condition from Frostbite (-2 STR, -2 DEX, no running, no charging)
- the Shaken condition from Enforcer (–2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks)
- the Frightened condition from a critical hit with Enforcer (creature flees, –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks)
- The Entangled condition from Rime Spell (moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, -2 penalty on all attack rolls, -4 penalty to DEX, concentration check to cast spells)
Later a Cruel AoMF can add Sickened. Arcane strike + Riving Strike is another later option to add damage and penalties.
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Kull wahad! That's a lot of penalties.
Two other traits worth considering.
(1) Quain Martial Artist Trait adds a +1 Trait Bonus to damage with Unarmed Strikes. Because of the wording of Ascetic Style this will also apply to the weapon that you use with that style.
(2) Armor Expert will let you use a mithral breastplate with no non-proficiency penalty.
If using a Monk weapon, you get to use flurry of blows. I could be wrong but I don't think you can use TWF and Flurry, but flurry is better so why waste a feat on TWF?
The reason would be for improved TWF, flurry works great to replace TWF, but since you're not taking more monk levels and you want 4 attacks at lv8ish you do TWF.
I have to admit, its made me look again at the Esoteric Magus. I suppose like most people, I thought Fists, 20/x2 crits with a Magus? No Thanks! Never looked at the possibility of using Monk weapons (odd since I have long contemplated a kensai with Double-chained Kama).
I'm also looking at adding a few levels of Warpriest (Sacred Fist Archetype) to increase the base damage of the weapons and add a few nice spell supports with fervour, though that will probably clash with the Esoterics spell combat ability so maybe not worth it.
If using a Monk weapon, you get to use flurry of blows. I could be wrong but I don't think you can use TWF and Flurry, but flurry is better so why waste a feat on TWF?The reason would be for improved TWF, flurry works great to replace TWF, but since you're not taking more monk levels and you want 4 attacks at lv8ish you do TWF.
OK, that makes sense.
I believe the main criticism for this archtype is why not just go a normal monk using fists? Is the higher base damage worth having less spells?
One thing that strikes me is that Wushu dart is a Monk weapon, could it be used by an Esoteric using Flurry to get a ranged spellstrike attack without getting the Arcana, or is that forbidden RAW? As far as I can see, Esoteric grants spellstrike with any unarmed strike and ascetic style applies effects that enhance unarmed strikes to the chosen weapon, so could it be used to get an alternative ranged spellstriker?
I'm also looking at adding a few levels of Warpriest (Sacred Fist Archetype) to increase the base damage of the weapons and add a few nice spell supports with fervour, though that will probably clash with the Esoterics spell combat ability so maybe not worth it.
Your Unarmed Strike base damage advances as a Monk's would, and the Ascetic Style Feats will let you use that damage progression for your selected weapon. So there isn't really a need to dip Warpriest.
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OK, that makes sense.If using a Monk weapon, you get to use flurry of blows. I could be wrong but I don't think you can use TWF and Flurry, but flurry is better so why waste a feat on TWF?The reason would be for improved TWF, flurry works great to replace TWF, but since you're not taking more monk levels and you want 4 attacks at lv8ish you do TWF.
I don't know... You can Unchained Flurry at level 1. You would do that instead of TWF all the way up until 9th level. So your level 3 feat gains you no benefit for 6 levels.
So at 9th, you've spent 2 feats and are taking a -2 penalty to all of your attacks in order to get an effectively BAB-7 extra attack.
TWF/ITWF
BAB-2, BAB-2, BAB-7, BAB-7
vs
Unchained Flurry + Weapon Focus + some other feat
BAB+1, BAB+1, BAB-4
For something that's only happening on rounds you don't spell combat or move, spending 2 feats to get a low probability attack seems like a lot. Arcane Accuracy helps, but you're going to run out of Arcane Pool points eventually.
Also, I don't think you can use Ki Leech to regain Arcane Pool points, even with Esoteric.
"At 4th level, an esoteric’s arcane pool is also considered a ki pool for the purposes of meeting feat and ability requirements." I don't see anything that lets it count as a Ki pool for the effect of a spell. And unless I'm missing it, you don't have an actual Ki Pool, since you only have 1 level of Unchained Monk.
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I'm also looking at adding a few levels of Warpriest (Sacred Fist Archetype) to increase the base damage of the weapons and add a few nice spell supports with fervour, though that will probably clash with the Esoterics spell combat ability so maybe not worth it.Your Unarmed Strike base damage advances as a Monk's would, and the Ascetic Style Feats will let you use that damage progression for your selected weapon. So there isn't really a need to dip Warpriest.
Gotcha, missed that. That makes a huge difference.
Gotcha, missed that. That makes a huge difference.I'm also looking at adding a few levels of Warpriest (Sacred Fist Archetype) to increase the base damage of the weapons and add a few nice spell supports with fervour, though that will probably clash with the Esoterics spell combat ability so maybe not worth it.Your Unarmed Strike base damage advances as a Monk's would, and the Ascetic Style Feats will let you use that damage progression for your selected weapon. So there isn't really a need to dip Warpriest.
It's also worth considering that an Esoteric Magus can use their Arcane Pool to add the Impact Special Ability to their Unarmed Strikes despite the usual restriction against light weapons. That bumps your damage up by one size category.
Ok. I see. The Ki Pool is coming from Perfect Style. That helps. I still don't think the tradeoff of accuracy and two feats is worth it to get the extra attack.
I don't think it is worth it either. There are so many other useful feats that you could be taking. Extra Magus Arcana alone offers many good options.
On the subject of the Ki Pool, here is a list of some possible feats from an old post of mine.
I'm not sure if any of those feats are any good.
I think the main reason for the Ki Pool is to let the Esoteric Magus use the Chakra abilities, but they definitely aren't very good.
OK, that makes sense.If using a Monk weapon, you get to use flurry of blows. I could be wrong but I don't think you can use TWF and Flurry, but flurry is better so why waste a feat on TWF?The reason would be for improved TWF, flurry works great to replace TWF, but since you're not taking more monk levels and you want 4 attacks at lv8ish you do TWF.I don't know... You can Unchained Flurry at level 1. You would do that instead of TWF all the way up until 9th level. So your level 3 feat gains you no benefit for 6 levels.
So at 9th, you've spent 2 feats and are taking a -2 penalty to all of your attacks in order to get an effectively BAB-7 extra attack.
TWF/ITWF
BAB-2, BAB-2, BAB-7, BAB-7vs
Unchained Flurry + Weapon Focus + some other feat
BAB+1, BAB+1, BAB-4For something that's only happening on rounds you don't spell combat or move, spending 2 feats to get a low probability attack seems like a lot. Arcane Accuracy helps, but you're going to run out of Arcane Pool points eventually.
I agree, they could delay the feat and they should consider taking it at all if going with Monk for the dip because as you've shown, it's a lot of accuracy and you're getting a low accuracy attack.
Also, I don't think you can use Ki Leech to regain Arcane Pool points, even with Esoteric.
"At 4th level, an esoteric’s arcane pool is also considered a ki pool for the purposes of meeting feat and ability requirements." I don't see anything that lets it count as a Ki pool for the effect of a spell. And unless I'm missing it, you don't have an actual Ki Pool, since you only have 1 level of Unchained Monk.
I believe it's from the line "Points from an esoteric’s arcane pool can be used for abilities that normally require ki." That spell requires a ki pool for it's thing so it uses the arcane pool as the ki pool.
On the build? No, the main reason for the Ki Pool in the build is to use Ki Leech for infinite (a lot) of arcane pool points.
Or did you mean something more general?
Sorry, I meant that I think the Chakras were the main reason why the writers added the Esoteric's Ki Pool in the first place. Chakras are not a good use of the Ki Pool for any build. :)
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Chess Pwn - That line lets you spend points from your arcane pool on abilities that require Ki. Ki Leech doesn't require you to spend any Ki. The points may count for the requirement to have at least 1 Ki in your Pool. But your Arcane Pool is not a Ki Pool, so Ki Leech cannot directly replenish any points in the Arcane Pool.
What the OP seems to be proposing is to take Perfect Style, so that you have an actual Ki Pool. Since Esoteric Magus can spend those as Arcane Pool points, spend one out of there first to enhance your weapon or whatever.
Then, when Ki Leech triggers, replenish a point in your Ki Pool. Next round, spend that point on Arcane Accuracy so there's a point free in the pool to replenish if Ki Leech triggers again.
The build doesn't care about anything else Perfect Style grants other than having an actual Ki Pool that will work for Ki Leech.
From what I can tell, anyway.
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Sorry, I meant that I think the Chakras were the main reason why the writers added the Esoteric's Ki Pool in the first place. Chakras are not a good use of the Ki Pool for any build. :)On the build? No, the main reason for the Ki Pool in the build is to use Ki Leech for infinite (a lot) of arcane pool points.
Or did you mean something more general?
I just figured the authors added it because they figured it was likely an esoteric magus would multi-class with monk, and having the pool points be interchangeable means they take less of a hit doing so.
Those were just sample builds that I tossed together. The fighter dip lets you make 2 attacks when you are not using spell combat but the monk should have taken Barroom Brawler at lvl 3 and Two Weapon fighting at lvl 7.
Also keep in mind that it is not just one extra attack. It is one extra touch attack from a Huge (maybe colossal) weapon, backed by frostbite and possibly a large str dam mod, that likely has a 15-20 crit range.
If Ki Leech is on, also an additional opportunity to get back ki. At higher levels, with transformation and haste, 7 attacks per round at that crit range will give an almost endless supply until the ki leech wand dies.
More swings = more ki = uses of [edit] Accurate Strike.
[edit]No, I meant Accurate Strike for the touch attack.
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No, you have Barroom Brawler in the right place for the build. You need BAB+4 to take it, so you don't qualify at 3. So you're stuck taking TWF at 3 the way you have it.
I didn't have an issue with TWF on the Fighter build, since at least the feat does something for you before 9th level.
I read the builds as using Arcane Accuracy, not Accurate Strike. That makes a difference, and might make it worth doing.
EDIT: Also, again, this is looking at the Monk dip build. That won't have a 15-20 crit range. And I'm not sure where you're getting Colossal weapon from? 9th level Monk Unarmed damage is 1d10. With Impact, it would go to 2d8. Enlarged 3d8. What's adding on beyond those?
The Ki Arcana ability states:
"If an esoteric gains a ki pool, he can use points from his arcane pool and ki pool interchangeably (though not special points such as drunken ki)."
The idea is to use the Perfect Style ki pool first and keep replenishing it with leech. Only using the Arcane Pool as necessary.
EDIT: Also, again, this is looking at the Monk dip build. That won't have a 15-20 crit range. And I'm not sure where you're getting Colossal weapon from? 9th level Monk Unarmed damage is 1d10. With Impact, it would go to 2d8. Enlarged 3d8. What's adding on beyond those?
14th level will open up 5th level spell and Monstrous P III. Huge + Impact.
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Accurate Strike vs Arcane Accuracy is really what makes the difference. Assuming you can replenish Ki fast enough, it's probably worth it, since you'll be hitting touch AC. Either build will dish out a lot of damage.
A few things to note, though.
Accurate Strike requires Magus level 9, and that's also when you get a new Arcana. That happens at Character Level 10. Both builds list it at 9th.
The Monk Build does not have Double Slice. Dragon Ferocity will increase the bonus .5, so you'll be doing x2 on primary 1, x1.5 on primary 2, but only x1 on the offhand attacks (because they start at .5 and increase .5).
Entering Dragon (or Ascetic) Style takes a swift action. So it's at least round 3 before you can use Accurate Strike, assuming you are enhancing your weapon with your Arcane Pool to get Impact and/or Keen.
The Monk build looks more effective until level 10, when you get Accurate Strike. After that, the Fighter build is probably better.
A Wand of Ki Leech will cost 11,500gp. WBL for a 9th level character is 46,000, so roughly 1/4th your gold. It looks a little better at 10th or if you've got someone who can craft it in the group.
The Monk Build does not have Double Slice. Dragon Ferocity will increase the bonus .5, so you'll be doing x2 on primary 1, x1.5 on primary 2, but only x1 on the offhand attacks (because they start at .5 and increase .5).
Monks don't have an off hand when using US and so their US are always mainhand and get full str. Thus it is x2 with x1.5 for all the rest.
"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk can apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
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The Monk Build does not have Double Slice. Dragon Ferocity will increase the bonus .5, so you'll be doing x2 on primary 1, x1.5 on primary 2, but only x1 on the offhand attacks (because they start at .5 and increase .5).Monks don't have an off hand when using US and so their US are always mainhand and get full str. Thus it is x2 with x1.5 for all the rest.
"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk can apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
Monks don’t have an off hand when they Flurry. From 9th level on he’s using TWF, not Flurry.
EDIT: Nevermind. Unchained moves that out of Flurry. Man, Unchained Monk is good.
Ascetic Style does not give full UA damage. It does nothing other than allow you to use feats such as stunning fist with weapons. Ascetic strike gives level -4 UA damage, but requires ascetic style, ascetic form and weapon focus.
Esoteric Magi have a class ability that lets their Unarmed Strikes use the Monk damage progression. Ascetic Form lets you use class abilities that apply to Unarmed Strikes with your chosen weapon. Thus you get the Unarmed Strike damage with your chosen weapon.
(The wording of Ascetic Style itself would let your chosen weapon to use your Unarmed Strike damage with your chosen weapon, but we know that the author didn't intend the wording to be that broad.)
Accurate Strike vs Arcane Accuracy is really what makes the difference. Assuming you can replenish Ki fast enough, it's probably worth it, since you'll be hitting touch AC. Either build will dish out a lot of damage.
A few things to note, though.
Accurate Strike requires Magus level 9, and that's also when you get a new Arcana. That happens at Character Level 10. Both builds list it at 9th.
The Monk Build does not have Double Slice. Dragon Ferocity will increase the bonus .5, so you'll be doing x2 on primary 1, x1.5 on primary 2, but only x1 on the offhand attacks (because they start at .5 and increase .5).
Entering Dragon (or Ascetic) Style takes a swift action. So it's at least round 3 before you can use Accurate Strike, assuming you are enhancing your weapon with your Arcane Pool to get Impact and/or Keen.
The Monk build looks more effective until level 10, when you get Accurate Strike. After that, the Fighter build is probably better.
A Wand of Ki Leech will cost 11,500gp. WBL for a 9th level character is 46,000, so roughly 1/4th your gold. It looks a little better at 10th or if you've got someone who can craft it in the group.
While Arcane Accuracy is very good, at the level it comes online, AS is several steps better. Yes, Accurate Strike should be at level 10. Again, these were quick sample builds to illustrate the flavor of the builds, so apologies for any minor errors.
Ki Leech is fundamental so I think a wand is worth it but some may decide to wait until until later so as not to spend the gold. Even without Leech, Perfect Style does add a good amount to an Arcana Pool.
Ok. I see. The Ki Pool is coming from Perfect Style. That helps. I still don't think the tradeoff of accuracy and two feats is worth it to get the extra attack.I don't think it is worth it either. There are so many other useful feats that you could be taking. Extra Magus Arcana alone offers many good options.
On the subject of the Ki Pool, here is a list of some possible feats from an old post of mine.
I'm not sure if any of those feats are any good.
I think the main reason for the Ki Pool is to let the Esoteric Magus use the Chakra abilities, but they definitely aren't very good.
Please take note of:
Feat - Barroom BrawlerSpell - Tactical Adaptation
Spell - Paragon Surge
These spells and that feat open up a lot of options to pick up emergency feats or progress further down chains. Very helpful at any level and moreso if you get high enough level to use Transformation.
I'm also looking at adding a few levels of Warpriest (Sacred Fist Archetype) to increase the base damage of the weapons and add a few nice spell supports with fervour, though that will probably clash with the Esoterics spell combat ability so maybe not worth it.Your Unarmed Strike base damage advances as a Monk's would, and the Ascetic Style Feats will let you use that damage progression for your selected weapon. So there isn't really a need to dip Warpriest.
True, but you need 7th level and all three Ascetic Style feats to get level-4 damage progression.
If you are taking a level of monk at 1st level, you don't have to take the Esoteric magus archetype, you can just take Ki Arcana magus arcana at 7th level, since you are taking at least 9 levels of magus anyway. Because you have levels in a class that grants a Ki pool, Unchained Monk, you qualify for Ki Arcana even if you get the ki pool from a different sources, such as perfect style. If you are going with the fighter at first level, you don't qualify for Ki Arcana, since you don't have levels in a class that grants a Ki pool, but otherwise you may as well go with this instead.
Monk doesn't count as a class that gives ki pool until it gives you a ki pool. You need to have the ability for the it to count.
If you are taking a level of monk at 1st level, you don't have to take the Esoteric magus archetype, you can just take Ki Arcana magus arcana at 7th level, since you are taking at least 9 levels of magus anyway. Because you have levels in a class that grants a Ki pool, Unchained Monk, you qualify for Ki Arcana even if you get the ki pool from a different sources, such as perfect style. If you are going with the fighter at first level, you don't qualify for Ki Arcana, since you don't have levels in a class that grants a Ki pool, but otherwise you may as well go with this instead.
Other magus archetypes or the base class would not receive
- scaling unarmed damageor
- impact enhancement
These are significant damage increases when attacking 5 times a round. It also isn't clear if you can take Ki Arcana if you haven't unlocked the ki pool of the class granting the ki.
If you are taking a level of monk at 1st level, you don't have to take the Esoteric magus archetype, you can just take Ki Arcana magus arcana at 7th level, since you are taking at least 9 levels of magus anyway. Because you have levels in a class that grants a Ki pool, Unchained Monk, you qualify for Ki Arcana even if you get the ki pool from a different sources, such as perfect style. If you are going with the fighter at first level, you don't qualify for Ki Arcana, since you don't have levels in a class that grants a Ki pool, but otherwise you may as well go with this instead.Other magus archetypes or the base class would not receive
- scaling unarmed damage
or
- impact enhancementThese are significant damage increases when attacking 5 times a round. It also isn't clear if you can take Ki Arcana if you haven't unlocked the ki pool of the class granting the ki.
True enough, I didn't really think about those.
so is there a consensus on the best way to build say the 1st few levels?
My comments were not about 1 build but the entire archetype. There are at least a half dozen solid ways to build out the first few levels depending on your goals. I only mentioned 2.
If you would like me to lay out some additional builds, let me know.
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Also, I just looked at "build one" again and totally made a mistake with feats. All the builds should have perfect style.
Build One
01 UnMonk1 [Scaled Fist] Class Feats: (Imp U.Strike, Stunning Fist, Dragon Style*), Human: (Power Attack), Artful Dodge
02 Magus [Esoteric] 1st lvl Spells (of note: Frostbite)
03 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Two weapon Fighting)
04 Magus [Esoteric]
05 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Dragon Ferocity), 2nd lvl spells(of note: Mirror Image)
06 Magus [Esoteric]
07 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Perfect Style)
08 Magus [Esoteric] 3rd lvl spells(of note: Tactical Adaptation)
09 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Improved Two Weapon Fighting),
10 Magus [Esoteric] Arcana (Accurate Strike), should pick up Ki Leech wand around now.
11 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Barroom Brawler), 4th lvl spells(of note: M.Physique II, Paragon Surge)
12 Magus [Esoteric] Arcana:(Spell Blending Arcana to gain Ki Leech or continue using a wand)
13 Magus [Esoteric] Feat(Combat Style Master)
Apologies for the "thread necro"....but I was researching this very idea, and this discussion was very informative :P
All the samples thrown out are using a 1 level dip in unchained monk...and I can certainly see why (flurry at first, bonus feat, etc...etc...)
But could a two level dip in Brawler more or less accomplish a more streamlined version of the same thing ?
I know that's one more level lost on the Esoteric....but the ability to wear even light armor without loosing your flurry...and simply going from TWF...to ITWF..(etc) without having to track different situations for flurry, TWF, and Spell combat.....seems worth exploring to me.
Apologies for the "thread necro"....but I was researching this very idea, and this discussion was very informative :P
All the samples thrown out are using a 1 level dip in unchained monk...and I can certainly see why (flurry at first, bonus feat, etc...etc...)
But could a two level dip in Brawler more or less accomplish a more streamlined version of the same thing ?
I know that's one more level lost on the Esoteric....but the ability to wear even light armor without loosing your flurry...and simply going from TWF...to ITWF..(etc) without having to track different situations for flurry, TWF, and Spell combat.....seems worth exploring to me.
I think the main thing is that it's going to completely tank your spell-casting.
At level 3:
A normal Magus has 4 cantrips & 3+X 1st level spells.
A Brawler 2, Esoteric 1 has 2 cantrips & 0+X 1st level spells.
(That's 7+X vs 2+X)
At level 6:
A normal Magus has 5 cantrips, 4+X first level spells & 3+X 2nd level spells.
A Brawler 2 Esoteric 4 has 3 cantrips, 2+X 1st level spells and 0+X 2nd level spells.
(That's 12+2X vs 5+2X)
Note that these are going to be the most favourable levels for the Br/Es-Magus since these are the levels the regular Magus doesn't have a higher level of spell.
The Esoteric gets some of it's casting back with Tattooed spell, but that doesn't come online till level 5, which gets pushed back to 7 with Brawler 2.
On top of that your caster level will be 2 lower, which means less damage, lower save DC's and shorter durations. You can make this back with MAGICAL KNACK but then you're putting resources into something rather than saving resources.
None of this means you can't take 2 levels of brawler, it just means you'll find it harder to be competitive unless you find something with really good synergy.
The esoteric doesn't really get casting back with tattooed spell, either - that replaces spell recall and is a weak shadow of it.
......Maybe just one level of brawler then.....
I just don't see the point of trying to get flurry, when it's never going to scale, and I have to invest the feat slots in TWF anyway...
Also, is there anyway to recapture that lost spell level ?
Feat or trait's ?
No. If it was a prestige class there would be, but levels lost to a base class are gone - you can get the actual caster level back with magical knack but not the spells/day.
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MAGICAL KNACK, as avr said it gets your caster level back, but not the lost spells/day.
RING OF WIZARDRY will get you more spells per day, but they take up ring slots (meaning you'll probably only get one) and they're noooot cheap. On top of that, if you take my previous example (B2/E1 vs Magus 3) you'll see that the same level Magus would get way more out of the same ring, so you're still behind even if you get the ring for free somehow.
You could get some utility by dipping into Esoteric from another base class (Esoteric 4/Brawler X only loses 1 BAB and gets level 2 spells), or if you have a specific build that makes use of its abilities.