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Looking to upgrade my masterwork scimitar to a material which affects daemons/devils and then later upgrade to keen. Questions: What is best material to upgrade to as a Dawnflower Dervish? Adamantium/Mithril/Cold Iron/ Silver? What is the cost to keen a masterwork scimitar before changing the material or after changing it. Trying to figure out which way to go. I am thinking change the material first then keen at later date, but doubling my threat range is huge. I also realize I can just pay the difference in fully upgraded cost to what I have in the weapon right now.
I don't think you can upgrade the material that a weapon is made of -- you basically have to create the weapon from scratch.
Obviously, the earlier you replace the weapon, the less money you waste on upgrading what you already have.
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You can't change the material after it's made.
If you want it to affect things you'll be wanting to make it +3 to overcome silver and cold iron or +5 to also bypass good.
Personally I recommend just normal material for your main weapon. Adamantine is too expensive for a bard to be worth having, mithril is expensive for just bypassing silver DR, Cold Iron makes your +1 even more expensive so it's too much to really use as your main, and silver will reduce your damage.
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So if you have a weapon that is non-masterwork you either buy a masterwork weapon or pay a spellcaster to cast masterwork transformations on it.
Now if you have a masterwork you can pay 2000 to make it a +1
Now if you have a +1 you can either pay 6000 more to make it keen as well OR pay 6000 more to make it a +2
If you're using a +1 or a +1 keen weapon against a devil or demon or whatnot they're going to have DR. Like DR 5/cold iron or good.
This will reduce the damage you deal to them by 5. So if you have a dex of 4 with your +1 magic scimitar then you're doing 1d6+5 -5 damage or 1d6 damage, on a crit that turns to 2d6+10-5 for 2d6+5 damage. But if you throw in arcane strike and a dex belt and good hope and now it's 1d6+10-5 for a normal hit and you still get 1d6+5 through.
Or you just carry a back up cold iron scimitar that you pull out if you feel that bypassing 4 damage is worth not having keen. (mathematically it's not)
Though if it's DR 10/cold iron or good then your first type of attacks do nothing and your second buffed attack only does 1d6 per hit pre crit. Not sure if the mundane cold iron scimitar is mathematically better here or not than keen.
So you're very much able to HIT devils with a mundane stick as any other enemy, it's just the damage will be a bit less against them.
Also a +3 weapon COUNTS AS cold iron for bypass DR, so if you had a +3 scimitar (keen doesn't count) then it'll bypass that cold iron DR.
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In order to add keen, the scimitar must be +1 first. So it wouldn't be just a masterwork scimitar. It would be a +1 Keen Scimitar.
You can damage devils or daemons or other things with DR with weapons that don't match the DR. You just subtract out the DR value. So, if something has DR 5/silver, and you aren't using a silver weapon, then the GM will take 5 off the damage you deal.
As long as you're doing more than 5 damage per hit at low levels, something will get through most creatures. At mid to higher levels, anything you do over 10 would likely get through. There are a few things with DR 15, but those are likely only going to show up at higher tiers (8-9 or 10-11).
Nothing stops you from carrying a masterwork cold iron scimitar in addition to your magic one. It never hurts to have a backup weapon, and you can switch to it if you need to. True, you don't get the benefit of keen when you do that, but if that's what it takes to get through DR, then that's what it takes.
I tend to just build characters so they do enough damage to power through DR. If you crit with your normal scimitar, the GM still only takes the DR out once. So a Dawnflower Dervish with a +1 keen scimitar at 6th level, a moderate 18 DEX, and +4 from Battle Dance, you'll be doing an average of 12.5 damage per hit, 25 on a crit. So DR 5 will be an inconvenience, but you'll still get through it. DR 10 would be a little more problematic, but not insurmountable.
EDIT: ninja'd by Thomas as I was typing that.
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Thanks guys I have been running around with my sack full of Society gold trying to figure out how to wisely spend it. Looks like plus 1 keen is worth saving 8k for. I have went through 6-7 adventures so far and haven’t confirmed a crit yet. I thought keen may be the best way to assist getting a crit roll
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Thanks guys I have been running around with my sack full of Society gold trying to figure out how to wisely spend it. Looks like plus 1 keen is worth saving 8k for. I have went through 6-7 adventures so far and haven’t confirmed a crit yet. I thought keen may be the best way to assist getting a crit roll
The 6,000 gold can get take your +1 weapon to +1 Keen, or +2. Think carefully before you make your investment. A +2 weapon means you hit more often, for more damage. Your overall throughput damage goes up.
A +1 Keen weapon increases your odds of getting a Critical hit. So your crit/surge damage goes up. If you just barely miss conforming crits a lot, then go Keen. If your rolls to confirm crits are under 5 a lot, then getting Keen won't help.
It's an interesting choice. Going to +2 instead of picking up the keen enhancement gets you closer to +3, which will then allow you to bypass silver/cold iron DRs. On the other hand, a scimitar is a good weapon to be chasing crits with, you're probably not going to invest in the improved critical (scimitar) feat, AND versatile weapon is on your spell list, so keen may be more useful to you in the long run.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@Cinderfoot: Just to help clarify things for you -
You can upgrade a masterwork weapon to a magical one, and a magical one to a more-magical one, by paying the difference in cost.
There is a spell, Masterwork Transformation, that can turn an ordinary weapon into a masterwork one, so that you can enchant it. You can pay an NPC to do that for you.
What you cannot do however is turn a steel weapon into a cold iron one, or an adamantine or or whatever.
Finally, there's a rule sort of hidden in the Bestiary in the description for Damage Reduction, saying weapons with a sufficiently high magical enhancement bonus can penetrate DR as if they were the correct metal (or alignment):
+3 cold iron/silver
+4 adamantine
+5 chaotic/evil/good/lawful
Note that this does not work for Hardness. To penetrate hardness you really need adamantine.
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Putting it all together, here are some recommendations:
- Buy an adamantine scimitar. It'll be harder to break, get through hardness, and hurt golems (which you'll otherwise have a tough time against with your magic).
- Enchant it to +1, then Keen, then eventually Bane (Evil Outsiders). That way it'll count as +3 against evil outsiders meaning it gets through DR cold iron/silver. Evil outsiders make up 95% of the enemies with those DR types that you run into. As a bard you should be able to talk down half the fey you meet. And you probably have spells that work against werewolves in the very rare case you meet them.
- Always carry a few oils of Bless Weapon in case you run into powerful demons with DR/good or suchlike. The oil costs only 50gp. That'll save you a lot of worry.
- Always carry a scroll of Instant Weapon in case you run into incorporeal enemies. 150gp saves your behind.
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@Cinderfoot: Just to help clarify things for you -
You can upgrade a masterwork weapon to a magical one, and a magical one to a more-magical one, by paying the difference in cost.
There is a spell, Masterwork Transformation, that can turn an ordinary weapon into a masterwork one, so that you can enchant it. You can pay an NPC to do that for you.
What you cannot do however is turn a steel weapon into a cold iron one, or an adamantine or or whatever.
Finally, there's a rule sort of hidden in the Bestiary in the description for Damage Reduction, saying weapons with a sufficiently high magical enhancement bonus can penetrate DR as if they were the correct metal (or alignment):
+3 cold iron/silver
+4 adamantine
+5 chaotic/evil/good/lawfulNote that this does not work for Hardness. To penetrate hardness you really need adamantine.
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Putting it all together, here are some recommendations:
- Buy an adamantine scimitar. It'll be harder to break, get through hardness, and hurt golems (which you'll otherwise have a tough time against with your magic).
- Enchant it to +1, then Keen, then eventually Bane (Evil Outsiders). That way it'll count as +3 against evil outsiders meaning it gets through DR cold iron/silver. Evil outsiders make up 95% of the enemies with those DR types that you run into. As a bard you should be able to talk down half the fey you meet. And you probably have spells that work against werewolves in the very rare case you meet them.
- Always carry a few oils of Bless Weapon in case you run into powerful demons with DR/good or suchlike. The oil costs only 50gp. That'll save you a lot of worry.
- Always carry a scroll of Instant Weapon in case you run into incorporeal enemies. 150gp saves your behind.
. The big thing is the hard part. The cost: ok you have me wanting a +1 keen adamantium bane scimitar. I believe the cost for +1 keen Adam scimitar is 15 times 3000 percent for adamantium or 450 gold. Plus 2000 for plus one then 8000 for keen. Later on a want to add bane. What is this additional cost for bane? And if I want it to glow when evil outsiders are near?
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Adamantine for a weapon is +3,000 gold, not times 3,000 percent. The cost would be:
15 + 3,000 + 2,000 + 6,000 = 11,015
Going from +1 to + 1 keen costs 6,000, not 8,000. 8,000 is the total cost of a +2 or equivalent enhancement
Bane is an additional +1 enhancement. The difference between a +3 weapon (18,000) and a +2 weapon (8,000) is 10,000gp. So that would make the total 21,015gp.
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Here’s a link to the PRD page on special materials. Adamantine is the first one listed. Scroll down and check out the chart. +3,000gp.
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Adamantine for a weapon is +3,000 gold, not times 3,000 percent. The cost would be:
15 + 3,000 + 2,000 + 6,000 = 11,015
If you are wondering where the 300 GP expense for a masterwork weapon is in this equation, the listing for Adamantine weapons explicitly states that Adamantine is so expensive that it is included in the cost already. Same for armor.
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If you are not playing CORE mode, also check out the scabbard of vigor. I often invest in these after I have a +1 weapon with a property, something permanent that I like (keen in your case, vicious for some PCs perhaps).
The scabbard of vigor is a great buy for 1800 gp. Get a few and fill them with silvered (cost +90 gp) or cold iron (cost x2 gp) scimitars. When needed, draw your and declare the weapon to be +3 for 3 rounds. When it runs out, draw your next (cold iron or silver) weapon from your next scabbard of vigor. Rinse and repeat as needed. A much cheaper investment for the few rounds you need it. Combats don't seem to often go beyond 5-10 rounds anyway. It's not a perfect solution, but is workable.
Game on!
Thanks for that advice!!
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The relevant FAQ. Shouldn't be anything else affecting cost - she can proceed from there to making it +1 and eventually flaming.