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Sorry for pulling the topic off track a little, but what's bad about the ecclesithurge? If specced right, they have another spell list on top of their own through domains, an ability that allows them to trade their channel for a single target buff, and I'm sure through the right domain, they can cast mage armor just fine. Considering you'd build a ecclesithurge just like a wizard, but you'd never need the spellbook, wouldn't that make it better?
Without going into too much detail....it suffers from the same probs that 90% of cleric archetypes do
Paizo takes a solid archetype concept but applies a lack of conviction when designing it....consequently it ends up half baked and people think...."Meh! I might as well stick with the standard cleric."
And so the cycle continues.....
Poor trades = poor archetypes
easily on par with wizard summoners.
Aren't Wizards one of the worst summoners? 2nd only to Sorcerers? lol (Lvl 20 Conjurers being the exception... but who gets to 20?)
easily on par with wizard summoners.Aren't Wizards one of the worst summoners? 2nd only to Sorcerers? lol (Lvl 20 Conjurers being the exception... but who gets to 20?)
Most of my games, actually. Though, as a group, we tend to not focus on summoning spells because they slow things down way too much. Exceptions being when the players actually take the time to stat out their summons fully and knew them as well as their own characters (which is not often). That is a LOT of homework on a class already heavy on bookwork.
As for myself, I don't tend to play many religious characters with divine casting, but when I do, it's not often a cleric. Inquisitors, Warpriests, and Paladins fit the concepts I go for much better. I much prefer nature oriented classes with divine magic (Druid, Shaman, Hunter, Ranger).
Wizards can take acadamae graduate to be strong summoners.
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Wizards can take acadamae graduate to be strong summoners.
Acadamae Graduate is from Curse of the Crimson Throne Original Edition, and thus D&D 3.5, not PFRPG (unless the Hardcover Edition updated it and Archives of Nethys didn't notice).
Sorry for pulling the topic off track a little, but what's bad about the ecclesithurge? If specced right, they have another spell list on top of their own through domains, an ability that allows them to trade their channel for a single target buff, and I'm sure through the right domain, they can cast mage armor just fine. Considering you'd build a ecclesithurge just like a wizard, but you'd never need the spellbook, wouldn't that make it better?Without going into too much detail....it suffers from the same probs that 90% of cleric archetypes do
Paizo takes a solid archetype concept but applies a lack of conviction when designing it....consequently it ends up half baked and people think...."Meh! I might as well stick with the standard cleric."
And so the cycle continues.....
Poor trades = poor archetypes
This is often true, but for Ecclesitheurge, not so much -- let's break it down by trade:
Eschewing physical armor for protection via the strength of his faith, an ecclesitheurge focuses on the miracles his deity bestows and the breadth of that deity’s dominion.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ecclesitheurge is proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but he’s not proficient with any type of armor or shield. This replaces the cleric’s weapon and armor proficiencies.
Ecclesitheurge’s Vow: At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears armor or uses a shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast cleric spells.
This would be bad if you want to be a combat Cleric (although if you're careful about getting alternate defense and manage to get the right weapon proficiency from another source, Reach Cleric or even Archer Cleric is still viable), but not so bad if you want to be a caster Cleric.
Blessing of the Faithful (Su): As a standard action, the ecclesitheurge can bless one ally within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). A blessed ally gains a +2 sacred or profane bonus (depending on whether the ecclesitheurge channels positive or negative energy) on attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, or saving throws or to AC until the ecclesitheurge’s next turn. The ecclesitheurge can expend 1 use of channel energy when activating this ability to increase the duration to a number of rounds equal to the number of dice of his channel energy.
This has action economy issues, and it is further hindered by the loss of a Channel Energy die (upon which it partially depends) at 3rd level, so you will probably be limited to using it in non-combat situations, such as when your Rogue or substitute thereof needs to find or disarm a trap. For things like this, it's okay if not great.
Domain Mastery: At 1st level, when an ecclesitheurge chooses his cleric domains, he designates one as his primary domain and the other as his secondary domain. An ecclesitheurge can use his non-domain spell slots to prepare spells from his primary domain’s spell list.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access to that domain’s spell list instead of his secondary domain spell list. He does not lose access to his actual secondary domain’s granted powers or gain access to the other domain’s granted powers. For example, an ecclesitheurge of Sarenrae with Glory and his primary domain and Good as his secondary domain can choose to gain access to the Healing domain; until the next time he prepares spells, he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list instead of the Good domain spell list, but still keeps the granted powers of the Good domain and does not gain the granted powers of the Healing domain.
This ability alters the normal domain ability.
Now this is where the good stuff is. Although it isn't easy to come up with a combination of Domains that are optimal for this, if you do, and you also get Scribe Scroll (unfortunately you can't in PFS), you're not too shabby as an semi-arcane caster substitute on top of being a good caster Cleric.
Bonded Holy Symbol (Su): At 3rd level, an ecclesitheurge forms a powerful bond with a holy symbol of his deity, which functions identically to a wizard’s bonded object except it can be used to cast cleric and domain spells (instead of wizard spells) and the ecclesitheurge can grant his bonded holy symbol only magic abilities appropriate for a holy symbol or a neck slot item.
As with a wizard’s bonded item, an ecclesitheurge can add additional magic abilities to his bonded holy symbol as if he had the required item creation feat (typically Craft Wondrous Item), provided he meets the feat’s level prerequisites. For example, an ecclesitheurge with a bonded holy symbol who wants to add a wondrous amulet ability, like amulet of natural armor, to his bonded holy symbol must be at least 3rd level to do so. The magic properties of a bonded holy symbol, including any magic abilities the ecclesitheurge added to the object, function for only the ecclesitheurge. If a bonded holy symbol’s owner dies or the item is replaced, the object loses all enhancements the ecclesitheurge added using this ability.
This ability replaces the increase to channel energy gained at 3rd level.
This your Get-Out-Of-Doop-Peep(*) card, as well as a magic item that you can craft without needing an Item Creation feat (not sure what happens with this in PFS). Just be careful not to let your Bonded Holy Symbol get lost or stolen . . . but you already knew that for your Holy Symbol, right? The other thing that hurts is losing a die of Channel Energy, which hurts your Blessing of the Faithful ability, but I'd still call this ability an overall win.
(*)When you REALLY need a spell NOW that you didn't prepare or already cast (and the Pearls of Power ran out) and don't have on a Potion, Scroll, or Wand.
So overall, I'd say that Ecclesitheurge is a pretty good archetype with an irritating flaw in it (anything that trades out Channel Energy dice without trading out the whole thing is an irritating flaw, but I'd say that in this case the advantages more than make up for it).