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It's that simple. Do kineticist blasts of any type suffer the attack penalty for being used under water? Or is it just the physical ones? What about the ones that do physical damage but have no physical projectile, like the void gravity blast?
I'm guessing not, due to the fact that they are not 'ranged weapon' but ranged attacks gained via class abilities. I just want to make sure and verify RAW however.
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Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.
Seems applicable to me.
I do remember reading a dialogue with Mark Seifter suggesting a houserule that Water Kineticists shouldn't suffer the penalty, though, FWIW.
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Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.Seems applicable to me.
I do remember reading a dialogue with Mark Seifter suggesting a houserule that Water Kineticists shouldn't suffer the penalty, though, FWIW.
Thanks to Aquatic Adventures, it's even a published rule and everything.
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Don't forget the Concentration Check
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
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From Aquatic Adventures:
Creatures with a natural swim speed from the aquatic or water subtype don’t take these penalties with their inherent natural attacks. For instance, a kraken’s bludgeoning tentacle attacks don’t take penalties, but if it took the ectoplasmatist spiritualist archetype from Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures and gained two slashing ectoplasmic lash attacks, those would still take the penalties. Attacks that deal bludgeoning damage by pushing water, such as a kineticist’s water blast, also take no penalty and deal full damage underwater.
So the water kineticist's physical blast specifically doesn't take penalties, the others would probably follow the special spell rules for energy blasts and the normal ranged rules for physical blasts.
Cold Spells: Spells that deal cold damage but don’t normally conjure ice, like cone of cold, instead deal half cold damage and half piercing damage, as the cold creates jagged ice shards underwater. This has no effect on spells that already create ice, rather than just cold damage.
Electricity Spells: While normal electricity, such as that from a natural thunderstorm, tends to disperse in all directions underwater, magical electricity spells hold their integrity enough to have normal effects underwater, with one exception: visible and audible lightning bolts and sparks are the result of combusted air, and they don’t happen underwater. Because of this, creatures that fail to identify an electricity spell that requires a ranged touch attack are flat-footed against the first such ranged touch attack during a fight, as they don’t realize they need to dodge the invisible projectile (unless they otherwise have reason to expect it, like a spellcaster who can cast such spells). This doesn’t apply to melee touch spells like shocking grasp, since the creature can still see the spellcaster’s hand moving towards it.
Fire Spells: While normal fire (including alchemist’s fire) and most supernatural fire can’t burn underwater at all, fire spells have a chance to transform into steam instead. Whenever you cast a fire spell underwater, you must succeed at a caster level check (DC = 20 + the spell’s level) in order to channel the heat into the water and create steam, dealing the same amount of fire damage as normal but without secondary effects of fire, like igniting combustibles. A fire spell must be either entirely steam or entirely fire, which means that if it covers an area that would normally extend beyond the water’s surface, you must choose whether to affect the region above the water or below, and the surface blocks line of effect for the rest of the spell. A spell or spell-like ability with the fire descriptor that already creates steam (like a kineticist’s steam blast) doesn’t require the caster level check to create steam; only spells that would normally create an actual fire require the check.
The wording makes it sound like a water-based telekinetic blast also wouldn’t be affected, but that is likely not the intent
Don't forget the Concentration Check
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
Kinetic Blast is not a spell.
But it is a spell-like ability, and Kinetic Blasts still need Concentration Checks.
A Fire Kineticist would need *two*, even, assuming they couldn't breathe underwater.
To cast defensively yes, but not to avoid disruption (environmentally). Also fire kineticists need a caster level check, not a concentration check.
EDIT:
I take it back.
Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
I know certain spells and SLAs count as weapons for feats, but I don't think they're actually weapons that are subject to the range penalty underwater rule.
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But it is a spell-like ability, and Kinetic Blasts still need Concentration Checks.Why?
Because that's how spell-like abilities work.
It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
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But it is a spell-like ability, and Kinetic Blasts still need Concentration Checks.Why?Because that's how spell-like abilities work.
It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
Yes, it's possible to disrupt a SLA, e.g. with a readied arrow. None of this implies that the underwater rule, which specifically only mentions actual spellcasting, should disrupt SLAs as well. The fact that breathing water solves the problem clearly shows that the verbal spell component is the problem, which does not exist for SLAs.
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Yes, it's possible to disrupt a SLA, e.g. with a readied arrow. None of this implies that the underwater rule, which specifically only mentions actual spellcasting, should disrupt SLAs as well. The fact that breathing water solves the problem clearly shows that the verbal spell component is the problem, which does not exist for SLAs.But it is a spell-like ability, and Kinetic Blasts still need Concentration Checks.Why?Because that's how spell-like abilities work.
It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
The text appears, to me, to indicate the exact opposite, but feel free to rule however you wish.
Yes, it's possible to disrupt a SLA, e.g. with a readied arrow. None of this implies that the underwater rule, which specifically only mentions actual spellcasting, should disrupt SLAs as well. The fact that breathing water solves the problem clearly shows that the verbal spell component is the problem, which does not exist for SLAs.
I disagree here. Being able to breathe water also means that your brain is not being overcome with the fact that you are in the process of drowning. It isn't just a verbal component issue, but rather an issue of concentration and focus in general while holding your breath.
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What is the summary of all this? Is this about right?
Slashing / Bludgeoning penalty (-2 att / 50% dmg):
[-] Will affect physical blasts associated with slashing and bludgeoning unless kineticist has Freedom of Movement
[-] Does not affect the bludgeoning damage from a water blast (or "any other damage caused by pushing water")
Ranged Attacks Underwater (-2 att per 5ft of water):
[-] Physical blasts are ranged attacks and therefore suffer from this penalty
[-] Elemental blasts do not (ranged touch)
[-] Water kineticists can also avoid this penalty with the water blast
[-] The composite blasts featuring water may avoid depending on how they cause damange (e.g., Charged Water would avoid this penalty, as it acts by "pushing water", but Ice Blast would not because it is hurling a physical piece of ice)
Spellcasting Underwater (concentration check - DC 15 + spell level):
[-] Contention over whether SLAs count ... rest assumes so
[-] Penalty is not applicable if caster can breathe water
[-] Kinetic blasts and wild talents are subject to this
Fire Spells Underwater (caster level check - DC 20 + spell level):
[-] Affects fire blasts and related wild talents
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Is the ice the same as the water it's getting pushed through? No, because it's in a different physical state.
To use a different element as an example, transmute rock to mud doesn't work with 'worked stone' but does regular stone you find in mountains and int eh dirt. When something is different things apply to it, well, differently.
Is the ice the same as the water it's getting pushed through? No, because it's in a different physical state.
To use a different element as an example, transmute rock to mud doesn't work with 'worked stone' but does regular stone you find in mountains and int eh dirt. When something is different things apply to it, well, differently.
Only because the difference is explicitly called out in the rules.
No such difference is specified for attacks in the water.
There doesn't need to be one. An Ice Blast is a ranged attack(that is not pushing over moving water, the liquid form). It's pretty simple.
If only RAW specified liquid form.
It does not.
It’s all moot anyway, because the underwater adventures rule specifies the attack has to be bludgeoning.
Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.Seems applicable to me.
I do remember reading a dialogue with Mark Seifter suggesting a houserule that Water Kineticists shouldn't suffer the penalty, though, FWIW.
I love that it's an official rule that spear fishing doesn't work. Well, throwing-based spear fishing.
It is done close to the surface, though often it is a short throw with the spear tied to something, rather than a thrust.
It's a silly quirk of the rules to be ignored if someone wants to go spear fishing and narrate that scene, not a law of the universe to be adhered to zealously.
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I love that it's an official rule that spear fishing doesn't work. Well, throwing-based spear fishing.Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.Seems applicable to me.
I do remember reading a dialogue with Mark Seifter suggesting a houserule that Water Kineticists shouldn't suffer the penalty, though, FWIW.
Aquatic Adventures also handles that. It's the only line in the book specifically called out as directly contradicting the CRB (rather than interpreting or adding rules where the CRB is silent), but not being able to throw harpoons into the water is a problem.