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Is it possible for 4 non casters to make it through a full campaign (18 levels)?
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My Wrath of the Righteous group was 4 Paladins. We steamrolled 90% of the encounters. It was fun, but the fights were comically one-sided. At one point, we deliberately alerted an entire fortress full of demons, and fought them all at once just to see if we could. Turns out, we could.
Then there were the other encounters.
Swarms, and flying enemies with invisubility, blur and/or mirror image were all but unbeatable for us at the levels they started showing up. For three levels we had to dump all our character resources into coming up with ways to deal with the niche enemies that are designed to be handled by spellcasters.
I expect any party of all martial characters is going to experience something similar.
Yep, this is certainly possible. Obviously won't be as easy as having an 18th level wizard in the party, but I think it could be done. If you are looking specifically for 0 casting that is going to make life harder, but if you count primarily martial characters who can cast then you have a lot more room to build.
You'll need at least 1-2 characters either as archers or at least able to switch hit reasonably well.
Paladin could provide some alright heals, bloodrager to give entire party some melee bonuses, etc would all be pretty nice.
Will you probably need someone with a good UMD check and for the party to chip in and buy a moderate amount of wands/potions/scrolls for some of the usual spellcasting stuff(fly, see invis, water breathing, cure light wounds, lesser resto)
If I were trying this I'd likely aim for a party of something like paladin, bloodrager, fighter, and a flex slot for something like rogue, ranger, investigator, or something.
Define "non-caster."
Do you mean no 9th level casters? Or no casting ability at all? Or something in between?
1 paladin and three non-casters
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Depends on encounter and adventure design, and on the intelligence of adversaries as played by the DM.
If the encounter design and enemy reactions are specifically geared towards softballing things so that the martials stay relevant, and adventures are carefully written so that no magical solutions to anything are needed (except where items with those powers are conveniently there for the finding), then sure.
But using level-appropriate challenges, and intelligent caster BBEGs (and/or outsiders with SLAs) who don't pull their punches? Not a chance 4 martials will make it to level 18, unless the casters' CL is like half the party's.
Depending on whether it's homebrew or published adventures and the general optimization level of the group, a group of well-coordinated martials (Assuming a mix of melee and ranged) will basically wreck most everything in combat. The things they'll generally struggle with is utility and everything outside of combat.
I'm going to recommend UNSANCTIONED KNOWLEDGE and a few PEARL'S OF POWER for the Paladin. The spells you choose for Unsanctioned Knowledge are up to you, but look for something that helps shore up your weaknesses, rather than improves your strengths.
Also I want to completely disagree with Kirth Gersen that it's impossible to do this with martial characters. Yes it'll be harder, but intelligent thinking on the part of the players will win the game every time.
Also just to put it out there, Use Magic Device and a little preparation turns everyone into a 9th level caster.
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Also I want to completely disagree with Kirth Gersen that it's impossible to do this with martial characters. Yes it'll be harder, but intelligent thinking on the part of the players will win the game every time.
Also just to put it out there, Use Magic Device and a little preparation turns everyone into a 9th level caster.
I think that would work until somewhere between 7th and 10th level.
Once enemies start having 4th and 5th level spells and SLAs, a party without spellcasters is going to have a very hard time.
By the time enemies gain access to 8th and 9th level spells, the only way a party of martials is going to progress is by GM fiat.
We had such a party once and it worked as others said already. They killed everything very fast that they could see, hit or otherwise reach.
At higher levels they need flying mounts or other magic items and things to see and hit invis and ethereal monsters. Plus one teleport device is a must have. As long as they get those, it works fine.
Edit: Forgot to mention: Our party had incredible saves. Defense is important too!
It really depends on the martials. It's possible, but depending on how a GM runs his games from a strategic standpoint it can be very difficult.
Paladins, rangers, and barbarians could work because they have access to magic, ability to cure status effects, good defenses, and ability to heal hit point damage.
Fighters, and slayers would likely be in a lot of trouble.
Also I want to completely disagree with Kirth Gersen that it's impossible to do this with martial characters. Yes it'll be harder, but intelligent thinking on the part of the players will win the game every time.
Also just to put it out there, Use Magic Device and a little preparation turns everyone into a 9th level caster.I think that would work until somewhere between 7th and 10th level.
Once enemies start having 4th and 5th level spells and SLAs, a party without spellcasters is going to have a very hard time.
By the time enemies gain access to 8th and 9th level spells, the only way a party of martials is going to progress is by GM fiat.
I'll remember that next time I have a high level fighter with scrolls of Antimagic Field + Step Up and Strike.
Magus, Warpriest, Hunter, Skald? Yeah easily
Paladin, Ranger, Cavalier, Slayer? Also doable.
Uchained rogue x4? Hard mode, but a doable group with lots of stealth and protracted combat.
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If I was to try to do this, I would probably make sure to include a paladin, because they can do most of the important divine magic to keep people alive eventually.
I also would want a class with a martial feel that can do a little arcane magic. Magus doesn't feel like a martial to me; it's too magical. A bard isn't strong enough, usually. Maybe an investigator? That, or a fighter with crazy UMD from pouring feats and traits into it.
I’m with Saldiven. Totally doable, just be smart about it. Definitely good advice for the pally to max out UMD; honestly I’d suggest a second player take it too if someone else can fit in their build. A Dex based kitsune fighter can afford a good Cha and a handful of those magic tail feats if anyone in your party is in to that kind of thing. There’s at least one martial archetype to gain some alchemist discoveries (the mutation fighter one, off the top of my head)- grabbing wings with that potentially solves a lot of issues with flying creatures. Also, the right familiar or animal companion can help with detection (like scent... maybe even blindsight or tremorsense if you find the right one), scouting, or flight, or even UMD use; and there are numerous archetypes and feats for getting those. Martials always want to focus on upgrading the big six (weapons, armor, stat boosts, etc) but in this game definitely don’t shy away from consumables like scrolls, potions, and wands- and at low levels always have alchemist fire (or similar splash weapons) in case you run into swarms or things with DR you can’t pierce (and don’t sell special material weapons that you find unless you’re willing/able to get a better weapon of that same material).
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Also I want to completely disagree with Kirth Gersen that it's impossible to do this with martial characters. Yes it'll be harder, but intelligent thinking on the part of the players will win the game every time.
Assuming the DM softballs challenges and/or makes sure the NPCs do un-intelligent thinking, yes, and I freely acknowledged that in my post.
Also just to put it out there, Use Magic Device and a little preparation turns everyone into a 9th level caster.
If we're talking something like 20x normal WBL, sure... but I'd put that firmly in the realm of "DM fiat" rather than "intelligent thinking." YMMV.
max out UMD
This... and lots of wands.
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By the time enemies gain access to 8th and 9th level spells, the only way a party of martials is going to progress is by GM fiat.I'll remember that next time I have a high level fighter with scrolls of Antimagic Field + Step Up and Strike.
If you have ever been in a game where a high level martial was an effective threat against an equally high level caster, your GM was going easy on you.
No intelligent high level caster is going to be anywhere close to a fighter. They're going to be flying, improved invisible, casting spells that don't break invisibility, riding around on some kind of construct that will do their moving for them, their familiar is going to be firing off crowd control scrolls and wands just to gum up the works, and as soon as that fighter gets within antimagic field distance, they're going to learn that the pointy hat our caster is wearing is actually a tepee with Shrink Item cast on it. The Shrink will be dispelled by the Field, dropping the tepee over the caster's body and blocking the Field's emanation, and Contingency Greater Teleport is going to go off taking the caster to safety before the fighter has finished his step up.
Then, the caster is going to start Scrying, casting Legend Lore, calling up things like Belier devils to do their scouting for them, and making extra special magic items of kill that f*$+ing fighter. If they're feeling particularly nasty, they'll fire up their Snowcone Wish Machine and start making very specific, spiteful wishes, every day until they get bored.
And they'll do all this from the safety of their very own secret demiplane that screws over everyone else who manages to figure out how to get there.
Four paladins, none with Dangerously Curious?
No, they won't, because that's boring ass b!$*$*@# and not much of a game.
Obviously they use spell bane anti magic field and just beat up the Fighter in their outsider body.
Or they are flying and anti magic field would just cause both to move out of reach of each other.
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By the time enemies gain access to 8th and 9th level spells, the only way a party of martials is going to progress is by GM fiat.I'll remember that next time I have a high level fighter with scrolls of Antimagic Field + Step Up and Strike.If you have ever been in a game where a high level martial was an effective threat against an equally high level caster, your GM was going easy on you.
No intelligent high level caster is going to be anywhere close to a fighter. They're going to be flying, improved invisible, casting spells that don't break invisibility, riding around on some kind of construct that will do their moving for them, their familiar is going to be firing off crowd control scrolls and wands just to gum up the works, and as soon as that fighter gets within antimagic field distance, they're going to learn that the pointy hat our caster is wearing is actually a tepee with Shrink Item cast on it. The Shrink will be dispelled by the Field, dropping the tepee over the caster's body and blocking the Field's emanation, and Contingency Greater Teleport is going to go off taking the caster to safety before the fighter has finished his step up.
Then, the caster is going to start Scrying, casting Legend Lore, calling up things like Belier devils to do their scouting for them, and making extra special magic items of kill that f$@@ing fighter. If they're feeling particularly nasty, they'll fire up their Snowcone Wish Machine and start making very specific, spiteful wishes, every day until they get bored.
And they'll do all this from the safety of their very own secret demiplane that screws over everyone else who manages to figure out how to get there.
This is such an awful, awful argument for why martial characters are bad and it seems to be something many people here actually believe.
If your argument is that class is bad because they could go up against a character that has infinite preparation time, resources and will be allowed to actively use all of this with no limit to beat the party you've failed at your understanding of this game
All the characters you go up against will have or should have set resources so that it is something the party overcomes.
As a DM I could arbitrarily give potions, scrolls, templates, minions, spell resistance, energy resistance, immunities to the abilities of a martial bad guy based on what the PC caster specializes in.
Every class is bad against a bad DM
A party of martials is actually very strong against even with some of the harder adventures paths. They put threats down faster.
Every high-level caster I've seen in an adventure path is just hanging around in their room with a few defensive buffs up. Anyone who can pass a saving throw and is prepared for basic tricks like flight and invisibility can beat them.
I have yet to see a sequence where four martials can beat a mid-level session filled with four balanced fights which are tailored to weaken progressively them to the point the last of it can be deadly. Self-belief only brings players so far.
I have yet to see examples of easy/average/hard fight when those pretending they could get through could be justified. So far there is only affirmations and no examples. Those who contend the opposite don't need that burden of proof as it's already established as plausible enough.
If the encounters are balanced around the characters, then there's no problem, because the encounters will be balanced.
If the encounters are balanced around a 'typical' group, then there may or may not be a problem, since some enemies are strong against an all-martial group, while others are easy.
What kind of 'examples' are you looking for?
"We met a couple of Stone Giants and the guy with really high Armor Class ran to the front and they couldn't do any damage to him, and then they died.
Then we met a dragon and it breathed fire on us and we shot it full of arrows and it died and then the Paladin healed us up with a wand."
Something like that?
What about a group of 4 wizards making it through a whole campaign? Specifically making it all the way to level 3 without one of them dying? I know I've never seen it o_O
That on one hand, or a group of 4 to 6 spectres on the other hand where lots of their protections are irrelevant.
Paladin: "Four spectres! I could UMD a Dimension Door, but now that we're all level 10 we can probably handle this. I'll channel energy to harm the undead!"
Zen Archer: "I'll break out my ghost touch arrows! Stand behind me, guys! My touch AC is through the roof!"Slayer: "I'm not really optimised for this, but I can still contribute to the damage..."
Barbarian: "Argh! Four negative levels! Three more hits like that and I'm dead! I'll take a withdraw action; that way they can't pursue me without provoking AoOs!"
Paladin: "Smite evil! There, that's the last of them! Good thing I stocked up on scrolls of Restoration before we came out here..."
Yes, they can, though how well it'd go depends greatly on the AP and on the player's system mastery/ability to prepare.
Serpent's Skull with all martial party could actually be really fun, and probably fit right in to the Indiana Jones feel of the entire thing. (Skull & Shackles or Iron Gods might have a similar thing, but I haven't played either yet.) Runelords or even Reign of Winter could probably work too.
Carrion Crown with no casters would be... rough. Martials and haunts don't play well together. (IIRC, Carrion Crown's treasure is also skewed towards consumables over permanent item, in part to contribute to a survival horror feel.)
If your players have good system mastery, this could be pretty epic.
If they don't, this could be painful to watch.
Four martial characters can work, but you probably need more than 1 with some sort of magic. The paladin can handle healing, and some defensive spells. A ranger would add more defensive spells and some utility. If one or more of the other characters has a decent CHA and takes UMD that would probably be very helpful.
The Paladin does not get UMD as a class skill and does not have a lot of skill points anyways. The other thing with the paladin being the one with UMD is that is putting all your eggs in one basket. You should never count on a single character for everything and that is what would be happening if the paladin is the only one to be able to use any magic. Besides being bad tactics it is also bad gaming. No one character should be the focus of the game. Each character should be equally important to the game.
Potions, scrolls and wands are going to be very important so you may need to increase the wealth level to account for that. What I would do is allow the party to price expendable magic items at the same cost as if they made it themselves, even though they are not making the items. Keep permanent magic items at the same cost and it will probably work out ok.
You will also have to make some adjustments in the game. Some encounters will be more difficult, but others may actually be easier. Some encounters a normal group would have trouble with will be a cakewalk for them, but other encounters that should not be that hard will be more difficult.
Affecting incorporeals is one of those things that a martial party should be prepared to handle by no later than 5th level. Either they have one or more Ghostbane weapons in the party, or there is someone with a decent UMD carrying a wand or scrolls of Ghostbane Dirge, or they all just have at least one magical weapon by 5th level.
UMD Ghostbane Dirge is a pretty poor option. It's "Will Negates", and most incorporeals can pass a DC 13 Will save.
If you have ever been in a game where a high level martial was an effective threat against an equally high level caster, your GM was going easy on you.By the time enemies gain access to 8th and 9th level spells, the only way a party of martials is going to progress is by GM fiat.I'll remember that next time I have a high level fighter with scrolls of Antimagic Field + Step Up and Strike.
I've been in more than one campaign where I was the sole survivor.
Once your within arms reach of a wizard with your anti-magic field up, they are unarmed commoners. With Step Up and Strike, they are grappled/tripped unarmed commoners if they try to 5' step or withdraw.
This happens on round 1 if you have the right feats.
Now, if by serious you mean a deliberate attempt on the part of the GM to murder the characters, it won't matter how well built or diverse the party is. As GM, I'll always win.
I might even have players left for the next campaign, though I doubt it.
Every high-level caster I've seen in an adventure path is just hanging around in their room with a few defensive buffs up. Anyone who can pass a saving throw and is prepared for basic tricks like flight and invisibility can beat them.
Which brings us back to softballing adventure design and playing the casters unintelligently.
Which sounds more fun than fighting a boss enemy who is a level 17 Wizard who uses divinations to determine that you're coming for him, and then uses Wish to teleport you all into the sun, or whatever it is that happens in a hardball adventure.
It's totally doable. Next important question is "what kind of campaign are you thinking of"?
It's entirely possible to run campaigns with 4 of anything in Pathfinder when the focus, themes, style, and challenges of the campaign are under your control. If you're running a campaign with all martial characters with little to no spellcasting, focus the campaign around martial issues, down-play the frequency of spellcasters in the campaign as a whole and as antagonists, and increase the frequency of healing resources.
The more you deviate from the general assumptions of PF's published campaigns, the more work you have to do accommodate the deviations. But for a home-grown campaign, it's not that much work at all.
Every high-level caster I've seen in an adventure path is just hanging around in their room with a few defensive buffs up. Anyone who can pass a saving throw and is prepared for basic tricks like flight and invisibility can beat them.
While fighting casters in an actual game is not likely going to be as hard as Doomed Hero's example it likely won't be this easy either.
If all someone has to do is bypass fly and invisibility to defeat a caster the GM is softballing or inexperienced.
What about a group of 4 wizards making it through a whole campaign? Specifically making it all the way to level 3 without one of them dying? I know I've never seen it o_O
I've GM'd a game of mostly full casters. The hard party was surviving the early levels. After that they owned the game. The party optimized their initiative to try to make sure they went first.
It was't all wizards though. It was a wizard, psion, sorcerer, and warlock(3.5 version) and wizards are not the only casters. If are going to nail down wizards then we can restrict this to fighters or rogues. :)
With that being said wizards can take leadership to get a cleric or hire a cleric. They can also get UMD and buy scrolls for when they fail a save to remove status effects if the GM won't allow them to hire additional help.
I did run the adventure as written and they were very optimized so things just died before really having a change to do anything offensive.
Withdraw doesn't trigger Step Up.Getting within arms reach, especially while under AMF, is generally very difficult.
When a foe tries to move away, you can follow and make an attack.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Following Step, Step Up, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When using the Step Up or Following Step feats to follow an adjacent foe, you may also make a single melee attack against that foe at your highest base attack bonus. This attack counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round. Using this feat does not count toward the number of actions you can usually take each round.
Getting within arms reach, especially while under AMF, is generally very difficult.
That very much depends on if you've included mobility in you character build instead of just DPR.
On the occasions I've played a high level melee character focused on anti-caster, I've always made sure I either had a non-magical means of flight or could teleport as a swift action prior to UMDing an antimagic field.
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When using the Step Up or Following Step feats to follow an adjacent foe...
Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability.
If they withdraw, none of that applies. A rage power can do it, but that greatly limits your character choices.