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So this came up in our group last night, and a search found several threads with no obvious conclusion. I didn't check to see dates on them but rather than resurrect an old thread, I figured I ask again and maybe now there is some consensus. *wishful thinking*
It boils do to two basic questions:
1) Can a creature with regeneration be killed by a death effect that doesn't deal hit point damage? and
2) If a creature with regeneration takes constitution ability damage and has it's constitution dropped to 0, does it kill the creature
As I read it, since regeneration can only repair hit point damage, it is subject to death effects as normal so long as that death effect isn't accomplished by hit point damage.
With regards to the second question, the rules state that a creature must have a constitution score for regeneration to work. To me that means that if you drop the con to 0, then they die.
Has this been resolved? Or is it yet another case of long standing arguments never to be resolved by Paizo.
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Is it Monday already? ; )
The Monster Codex clearly describes methods of killing creatures with regeneration. Save-or-die effects (unless they work via damage) and constitution damage should work similarly.
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Thanks for the response, Blahpers. I guess this isn't nearly as controversial as I thought. Or maybe everyone is tired of arguing about it. Or couldn't be bothered :(
As far as the troll entry is concerned though it really just states that starvation, and drowning can kill a troll. It is hard to extrapolate a general rule from just that entry. Other than it seems to refute the "cannot die" text in regenerate.
Thanks for the response, Blahpers. I guess this isn't nearly as controversial as I thought. Or maybe everyone is tired of arguing about it. Or couldn't be bothered :(
As far as the troll entry is concerned though it really just states that starvation, and drowning can kill a troll. It is hard to extrapolate a general rule from just that entry. Other than it seems to refute the "cannot die" text in regenerate.
About the Codex entry, you have to translate it into rules yourself.
Since starvation, drowning... are environmental effects, you can focus on the common features. The two most usted option are:
1-. Last "tick" of the effect (you drown/you starve/...) counts as a Death effect.
2-. When the effect kicks in (the CON roll is finally failed), regeneration is stopped until the effect is "fixed".
Second one seems to fit more the troll Codex... A troll who doesn't get enough to eat over the course of a few days loses its regeneration and becomes vulnerable
I agree the implication, at least for trolls, is that things other than the listed regeneration counters (fire, acid) can also bypass regeneration. Unfortunately, looking at a large number of other regenerating monsters, there is no such language. So you have to fall back to
Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
and
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Which leads me back to can death effects, ones that kill without hit point damage, kill a creature that has regeneration. It is unclear, at least to me, that environmental effects are "death effects". But what does seem clear is that the environmental effects damage isn't healed. Meaning the regenerating creature can be disabled, but remove the effects and it can be restored to health by supplying food, water or air.
Now the troll entry states that the troll become vulnerable, and in that context, I think it's safe to assume they mean that it's regeneration is disabled.
And finally did they really mean when they made the statement about constitution score only seek to exclude monsters with Con -, or is a Con of 0 yet another means of turning off/killing a regenerating monster.
Kinda sneaky to errata in the codex. :)
Does it have the same language as the bit in the vampire section that allows undead Barbarians to rage and get their bonuses? If not it only applies to trolls(which is super weird).
On the plus side, if it does apply, killing the Tarrasque just got easier.
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Kinda sneaky to errata in the codex. :)
Does it have the same language as the bit in the vampire section that allows undead Barbarians to rage and get their bonuses? If not it only applies to trolls(which is super weird).
On the plus side, if it does apply, killing the Tarrasque just got easier.
Those ways to beat a Troll's regeneration were first mentioned in the Troll article in 3.5's Classic Monsters Revisited so I'm pretty sure it's just specific to trolls, though I'm not 100% certain on that.
Kinda sneaky to errata in the codex. :)
Does it have the same language as the bit in the vampire section that allows undead Barbarians to rage and get their bonuses? If not it only applies to trolls(which is super weird).
On the plus side, if it does apply, killing the Tarrasque just got easier.
Nope.
1. Tarrasque regeneration is it's own separate thing that cannot be suppressed.
2. Tarrasque has Hibernation.
Yes.
1)It's regeneration says nothing about stopping starvation or drowning/suffocation, just death effects(which starving, drowning, and suffocation are not) and damage.
2) Not as an ability, and even hibernating creatures need to breathe.
Different viewpoints are fun. :)
But the question still remains can a death effect kill a regenerating creature. The Tarrasque regeneration seems to make the case for the answer being yes. If death effects were prevented by regeneration normally, then why would the Tarrasque need to have immunity to said effects.
The ability damage question also remains. Can con damage kill a regenerating creature. Certainly regeneration can't repair ability damage but can that damage actually kill a creature with regeneration, or does it just disable the creature until the ability damage is repaired.
But the question still remains can a death effect kill a regenerating creature. The Tarrasque regeneration seems to make the case for the answer being yes. If death effects were prevented by regeneration normally, then why would the Tarrasque need to have immunity to said effects.
The ability damage question also remains. Can con damage kill a regenerating creature. Certainly regeneration can't repair ability damage but can that damage actually kill a creature with regeneration, or does it just disable the creature until the ability damage is repaired.
Being immune to death effects is more than being immune to an effect like Power Word Kill, a spell that just kills you and doesn't inflict damage. Finger of Death, on the other hand, deals 10 points of damage per caster level, so being immune to death effects also renders you immune to its damage.
Dotoo
Yes.
1)It's regeneration says nothing about stopping starvation or drowning/suffocation, just death effects(which starving, drowning, and suffocation are not) and damage.
2) Not as an ability, and even hibernating creatures need to breathe.
Different viewpoints are fun. :)
RAW is even more fun.
Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque’s regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.
Spawn of Divine Destruction can sleep for years, decades, or even centuries and do not need to eat or breathe during these periods of dormancy, though they breathe normally and eat ravenously and almost constantly once they’ve been awakened. If a spawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken.
While in hibernation, a spawn’s damage reduction improves to 50/epic and it gains immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance as well as all divination effects.
That's a unique tarrasque, hence why it has a name. RAW I'm still correct regarding normal ones. Enjoy.
The environmental effects starvation, thirst, and suffocation wont kill a regenerating creature unless it stops regeneration. This appears to be the case with trolls and starvation, but no other regenerating creature I could find has similar text. And the troll text only states that they are vulnerable. Clearly the tarrasque will just go into hibernation. One could read the text to say that normal regenerating creature becomes incapacitated due to the non-lethal damage and are unconscious, and that it.
What I'm looking for is a clear answer to how one kills a regenerating creature.
Option 1: stop regeneration using the listed method on the creature, and dealing sufficient damage to kill it.
This option clearly works. But what isn't clear, and I can't find a definitive answer to is do these other options work as well:
Option 2: use a death effect that doesn't deal hp damage
Option 3: reduce via ability damage the creatures constitution score to 0
Now the Tarrasque comes back from death effects in 3 rounds, and is immune to ability damage. Both implying that regeneration isn't sufficient to protect a creature that has regeneration. Or that's how I read it.
That's a unique tarrasque, hence why it has a name. RAW I'm still correct regarding normal ones. Enjoy.
That is the most recently published version of the Tarrasque, which includes the godspawn subtype.
You can choose to use older publications, just like you can choose to use older versions of the Loremaster, but the general rule is: the most recently published version of anything is the version used.
It's also setting specific and, if I'm guessing right, the spawn of a diety. So, yes, I'm choosing to use the base line Tarrasque because it's not a super special snowflake of Rovagug.
I was hoping that I could get the topic back to my question, rather than continuing to debate about the Tarrasque which is uber regeneration. Other than providing some insight into what isn't provide by "normal" regeneration, the Tarrasque isn't useful for the topic at hand. Ah well.
It boils do to two basic questions:
1) Can a creature with regeneration be killed by a death effect that doesn't deal hit point damage?
As I read it, since regeneration can only repair hit point damage, it is subject to death effects as normal so long as that death effect isn't accomplished by hit point damage.
Yes, Regeneration only repairs hit point damage. If you Die from something other than hit point damage, you are still Dead.
2) If a creature with regeneration takes constitution ability damage and has it's constitution dropped to 0, does it kill the creature.
With regards to the second question, the rules state that a creature must have a constitution score for regeneration to work. To me that means that if you drop the con to 0, then they die.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Yes, Constitution damage that drops you to or below 0 kills you.
How the argument ran in our group was that regeneration(EX) states that you can not die.
A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature’s descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
So you must be immune to death effects because you can't die, as long as regeneration is active. My counter to this was then why does the Tarrasque need to have immunity to death effects. Seems a bit redundant.
Similarly with the Con 0. Sure your Con is 0, but regeneration (EX) said you can't die. So not dead. I contended that with a Con of 0, you loose regeneration because the text states that you must have a constitution score to have regeneration, and was countered that 0 is a score, and only having a dash (-) represents not have a constitution score.
Ultimately, I still think that both death effects and con damage will kill a regenerating creature. And even though it mentions starvation, thirst and suffocation, as harming a regenerating creature the way I read it is that they just fall unconscious and don't really die. But the troll entry seems to imply that starvation stops a trolls regeneration. Unfortunately no other regenerating creature that I found had similar text.
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
Regeneration only heals Hit Point damage. If you are to Die (or are incapacitated, if you are not Dead) from something other than Hit Point damage, how does having Regeneration heal/remove that effect?
It doesn't. It just keeps you from dying.
It doesn't. It just keeps you from dying.
So you are stuck in a incapacitated body/corps for all time???
All the more reason for the FAQ. Though since you didn't die you wouldn't be a corpse, to be technical about it.
Yes, the non-healed damage or environmental effect should just incapacitates them, and they stay in that incapacitated state until the effect and/or the damage is repaired. So don't give an incapacitated from thirst troll a glass of water.
Ability damage, and death effects seem to be different. A con of 0 should kill you. It is hard to see how regeneration would just leave you incapacitated but one could make the same argument as the non-lethal/non-regenerated damage. Similarly it doesn't seem to make sense that if you snuff out the life force of a creature that regeneration would save you.