I realize that part of this is just because it's a new game and so there isn't a wealth of splat yet.
And I realize there's probably math and balancing decisions that go into stuff like this, but this isn't really a balance concern
But the choices an Operative makes in terms of melee weapons is really boring. Two options at level 1 and then starting at level 7 about one every two levels. Of those only two of them have any sort of special properties.
There are also no advanced melee weapons with the operative property. Again, probably some fancy math that says letting Operatives pick up bigger weapons would ruin things but... still it'd be cool if the feat had SOME value. Even if it was just access to a cool crit property or whatever.
Ultimately it's not the end of the world, but one of the cool things about Starfinder is the number of odd weapon choices and the various cool properties you can pick between and for a melee operative... you're essentially stuck with the bare minimum for the way weapon progression works in this game. And they're not even fancy sci-fi weapons either. It's a stick and a knife.
From what I can tell, Operative weapons are intentionally lower-powered because for one they are the only stat-swapping system in the game (Dex to hit with Melee weapons,) make use of the God-Stat Dex (maybe not actually a consideration for the devs but true,) make switch-hitting easier, and on top of that, well, they're the Melee option that Operatives get to add a fair bit of scaling damage to. In fact, Trick Attack in general is, I believe, why Operative Weapons and Small Arms only get 1/2 Specialization.
Yeah, which is unfortunate as it REALLY hurts pistols/dex melee weapons for everyone who's not an operative. The damage a pistol does is kinda comically low as you level so any class that doesn't start with rifles is pretty required to make the upgrade unless you are an operative.
Feels a bit like Operative's trick attack should have scaled slower and pistols/operative melee weapons a bit faster (For the same net effect for them but making those weapons hit like less of a wet fart)
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From what I can tell, Operative weapons are intentionally lower-powered because for one they are the only stat-swapping system in the game
I understand the why (though I agree with Ikiry0's assessment too).
But it's also frustrating because there's so few options presented to the operative. You can't grab a better melee weapon with Advanced proficiency. Or any choice to make at all, really. You pick a level and you'll almost certainly know what every single operative's melee weapon is going to be, with only a couple exceptions.
Between that and what the above poster said it really makes finessable melee weapons feel like they were kind of an afterthought.
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As I see it it balances fantastically.
All those that don't have access to longarms either have ways to boost the damage of small arms or do solid damage other ways. (With maybe the exclusion of envoys, though my knowledge of that class is minimal).
Though flavorfully it would be nice to have other operative weapons, the ones they have are sufficient mechanically.
All those that don't have access to longarms either have ways to boost the damage of small arms or do solid damage other ways.
It's not really what I was going for with the OP but I'm not sure this is true.
The advice I tend to see for classes that are stuck with small arms is to pretty much grab long arm proficiency as soon as possible. Excepting the Operative of course.
Likewise for melee options. Operative weapon pretty much means operative only, everyone else who's interested in melee combat is going to grab something fancier.
I think the limited selection of sniper weapons is way worse then operative weapons having lower end damage.
Yeah, only a single line of them is kinda boring. Energy lasers or a line sniper (A railgun) would be fun.
Yeah, only a single line of them is kinda boring. Energy lasers or a line sniper (A railgun) would be fun.
Energy lasers exist...and railgun well... I have a homebrew of those. But I suppose they will come to life sometime.
I am not sure trick is there reason why small arms get half spec. I doubt that. if that the case they simply have powered down TA instead. No any class that wants to wield small arms as main weapons are getting gimped. The likelier reason is that there should be distinct damage differences (besides the damage die) between small arms and "real weapons". Small arms a sidearm in the game. Unless you are a Operative.
I think the limited selection of sniper weapons is way worse then operative weapons having lower end damage.
Well, limited selection was my main gripe with operative weapons too.
Snipers are in a similar (worse, actually with only 5 weapons) position.
In both cases you basically have one weapon you can upgrade semi-regularly with very little chance to choose.
It feels kind of crappy when you look at other weapon types and see a few options every level instead of just one option every few levels.
Of course, both weapons have other problems too. Sniper operative has some sketchy rules interactions that kinda leave you at the mercy of the GM playing ball and melee operatives have no real support (and a 6th level exploit does a pretty good job invalidating them outright).
But on the topic of numbers:
The likelier reason is that there should be distinct damage differences (besides the damage die) between small arms and "real weapons". Small arms a sidearm in the game. Unless you are a Operative.
I get that logic, but again, the trouble there is that weapon proficency(longarm) just ends up becoming a no brainer option for any small arms class that wants to shoot a gun ever, especially once you get longer into the campaign, especially especially if you grab versatile specialization too. Unless you are an Operative.
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Only one sniper weapon until item level 8 is kind of sad as well.
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You do realise the page count issues in the Starfinder CRB, right? They had to, with a smaller page count than the Pathfinder CRB, fit in all the same stuff AND starship combat AND setting information AND the legacy section. Sure, the spells chapter is a lot shorter already, but that was never going to be enough.
Honestly, melee Operatives (and sniper Operatives) are not the only people with this issue (although they are arguably the worst off). A Melee soldier is essentially choosing between a Tactical Pike or a Tactical Doshko at level 1, and the Doshko isn't a great choice since you can't full attack with it. Yes, at later levels they have more options. But the choice is still pretty limited (especially compared to pathfinder) particularly if you want a semi optimal character. Basically, there isn't that much variety for any of the classes.
This is, however, a problem that will solve itself. I doubt we'll have to wait long before we have options streaming out our ears, even with the fact that new Starfinder book will be coming out far less often that their Pathfinder equivalents.
So yeah. Don't panic. Take another look when the Alien Archive hits the shelves, and if that isn't to your tastes there's always third party stuff.
Snipers are in a similar (worse, actually with only 5 weapons) position.
In both cases you basically have one weapon you can upgrade semi-regularly with very little chance to choose.
Well in that case you'll probably like to hear that AA introduces a second line of sniper weapons which are also slightly more affordable than the CRB snipers. It feels to me that most issues people are having with the game right now boil down to the game being new and not having contingency rules for every scenario like everyone is used to with Pathfinder. I for one can't wait for more books to come out and see if/how they address some of the things people have issues with.
I am not sure trick is there reason why small arms get half spec. I doubt that. if that the case they simply have powered down TA instead. No any class that wants to wield small arms as main weapons are getting gimped. The likelier reason is that there should be distinct damage differences (besides the damage die) between small arms and "real weapons". Small arms a sidearm in the game. Unless you are a Operative.
The flaw with that logic, to me, is that there's only two sets of weapons in the game that get 1/2 specialization: Operative Melee and Small Arms. And if you look at it, those two sets also are the exact same sets of weapons that Operatives can use for Trick Attack. And they don't really have much else in common. Sure the argument is there that Small Arms are side-arm weapons, but then that doesn't really explain Operative Melee getting the same shaft. Personally, I wish they had balanced things so Small Arms could still have full spec, rather than simultaneously giving half (or more) of classes a feat tax and screwing over any CRB-built character that actually wants to use a handgun for whatever reason.
If you look at the operative weapons they would qualify as basically melee side arms. They are small light weapons that a usual fighter would carry as backup...like a side arm.
Yeah, good point for Operative melee weapons. As for 1st lvl melee options for everyone else. I disagree that there are only two. There are many times I have found from my 7+ games in Starfinder having a one-handed melee weapon extremely useful (for non-kasatha). Especially with how throwing weapons work in Starfinder, Str to hit and damage, it is better to buy and carry a returning starknife as your range weapon than a smallarm. So my biltz soldier carried said starknife and assault hammer, until I was able to upgrade to the longsword. Yeah, I could get better damage with 2 handed weapon, but versatility is also important.
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IF you are worried about that instead you get the called fusion. Swift action and it's back :D
IF you are worried about that instead you get the called fusion. Swift action and it's back :D
This is what I use.
Not sure why returning is even a thing when the called fusion exists.
Returning works better if you want to full attack and throw multiple. Also once you can put both on that's the way to go, throw it, if I don't move great I can full attack, if you move, swift to get it back.
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I keep seeing people saying unarmed strikes should be operative weapons. I keep having to respond "no, don't do that, that will only screw all the non-operatives!"
Thankfully, several people are recommending separate options for martial arts operatives and non-operatives.
Perhaps the operative gets an optional class ability that lets them treat unarmed strikes as operative weapons that deal lethal damage and aren't treated as archaic.
Everyone else (and even operatives) have a feat that simply states that unarmed strikes deal lethal damage*, aren't treated as archaic, and get a boost similar to that of the vesk.
Here's hoping Paizo gets the memo before they release new martial arts options that end up being very one-sided.
* Though this really should have been done in the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
IMO: Operatives are like a backward Enovy. Enovy characters are all about buffing the party and Operatives are about debuffing the enemy with conditions. I would like to see a lot more varieties of weapon options.
You do realise the page count issues in the Starfinder CRB, right? They had to, with a smaller page count than the Pathfinder CRB, fit in all the same stuff AND starship combat AND setting information AND the legacy section. Sure, the spells chapter is a lot shorter already, but that was never going to be enough.
Page count isn't excuse or a justification for basic balance problems. Or genre emulation problems, which honestly is my bigger issue with Starfinder. When Han Solo* is problematic for your space fantasy system, you've done goofed.
*signature weapon that he doesn't trade up for a rifle or a better version, ship that he doesn't trash for a better version, no elaborate or wacky shenanigans required to make him useful in combat or a wide variety of other situations.
Honestly, the weapon charts could have used a lot less wacky junk and a basic self-scaling system based on character skill, which would have fit the tone a lot better than the hand-waved 'must be X tall to ride' system they came up with.
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What's with all this level 8 nonsense? You can have an advanced Shirren-eye rifle by level 6 or an advanced Diasporan rifle by level 3.
Honestly, the weapon charts could have used a lot less wacky junk and a basic self-scaling system based on character skill, which would have fit the tone a lot better than the hand-waved 'must be X tall to ride' system they came up with.
Something like D&D 4e's X[W] notation would have worked well there. 'My sniper rifle deals 1d10 damage and I'm level 10 so that means 5[W] so 5d10'. The exact scaling would need to be played with (Either based on your BAB (So Soldiers/Solarians get the fastest damage scaling) or having pistols/rifles/ect scale based on weapon class) with but I think it would have worked.
What I think a lot of people are missing too wit small arms is that they're the only ones you can dual wield in a full attack, getting lesser penalties with Feats and even more attacks based on class. Id assume that's a factor as well
This also applies for operative melee weapons.
What I think a lot of people are missing too wit small arms is that they're the only ones you can dual wield in a full attack, getting lesser penalties with Feats and even more attacks based on class. Id assume that's a factor as well
They are very much not the only ones you get even more attacks with, as both Soldiers and Solarians get 3 attack full attacks with non-Small Arm/Operative weapons. Also anyone can dual-wield non-Operative Melee weapons because unlike Small Arms for guns Operative weapons aren't the only one-handed Melee weapons. And of course Kasatha, Skittermanders, any other 4+ armed races I'm not yet aware of, and anyone with 2 mechanical arms can dual-wield Long Arms or even Heavy Weapons. It's just that for all of these it doesn't necessarily give you any benefit besides the flexibility.
That said, as far as Operative's Quad-attack and the simple existence of Multi-weapon fighting, I'm pretty sure the reason those work the way they do at all is specifically because Small Arms and Operative weapons are so weak. It takes 2 hits to bring them up to par with a single shot from a stronger weapon, or the Operative's full Quad Attack to be on par with a normal Full Attack.
The flaw with that logic, to me, is that there's only two sets of weapons in the game that get 1/2 specialization: Operative Melee and Small Arms. And if you look at it, those two sets also are the exact same sets of weapons that Operatives can use for Trick Attack. And they don't really have much else in common. Sure the argument is there that Small Arms are side-arm weapons, but then that doesn't really explain Operative Melee getting the same shaft. Personally, I wish they had balanced things so Small Arms could still have full spec, rather than simultaneously giving half (or more) of classes a feat tax and screwing over any CRB-built character that actually wants to use a handgun for whatever reason.
You are right I thought it Basic weapons when its basic operative weapons. I otherwise agree with you. It would have been much better to balance thing out rather nerf entire groups of weapons because of the class abilties of ONE class.
With that said I and many other have done various calculations and it really doesn't have a major impact on damage by allowing full spec on small arms and operative weapons. Operatives with full spec will not outdamage any new groups/classes regardless of whether it has full or half spec. NPCs also get full spec on small arms.
It Would have been so much easier to make unarmed combat possess operative quality if full spec was the order of the day. Half spec causes more problems than it solves (no or few in ime).
What I think a lot of people are missing too wit small arms is that they're the only ones you can dual wield in a full attack, getting lesser penalties with Feats and even more attacks based on class. Id assume that's a factor as wellThey are very much not the only ones you get even more attacks with, as both Soldiers and Solarians get 3 attack full attacks with non-Small Arm/Operative weapons. Also anyone can dual-wield non-Operative Melee weapons because unlike Small Arms for guns Operative weapons aren't the only one-handed Melee weapons. And of course Kasatha, Skittermanders, any other 4+ armed races I'm not yet aware of, and anyone with 2 mechanical arms can dual-wield Long Arms or even Heavy Weapons. It's just that for all of these it doesn't necessarily give you any benefit besides the flexibility.
That said, as far as Operative's Quad-attack and the simple existence of Multi-weapon fighting, I'm pretty sure the reason those work the way they do at all is specifically because Small Arms and Operative weapons are so weak. It takes 2 hits to bring them up to par with a single shot from a stronger weapon, or the Operative's full Quad Attack to be on par with a normal Full Attack.
I wasnt clear. I was referring to multi weapon fighting and small arms/operative weapons being exclusive to each other.
And besides, in scifi and such, small weapons vs big weapons are almost always weaker (noisy cricket being the exception. Sorta). Want to do bigger damage? Learn to use a bigger weapon. Want to specialize in your field, but still do a decent hit? That's fine too. Only thing that would be nice is maybe a feat for extra damage but it would need prerequisites which people don't seem to want
Wouldn't Han be an Operative anyway, the class that basically specializes in pistols?
Wouldn't Han be an Operative anyway, the class that basically specializes in pistols?
That's how I'm building my Han Solo...
Han Solo can get by with a pistol because in Star Wars a single hit with a pistol will drop a person. Starfinder is emulating things like "Doom", "Starship Troopers", and "Dungeons and Dragons", where bigger weapons are better.
I dunno, the starting weapons from the first level of Doom tend to work pretty well until the very end. That shotgun is amazing even against late game enemies. The Super Shotgun is better damage but the base shotgun is reliable and solid the entire way.
What I think a lot of people are missing too wit small arms is that they're the only ones you can dual wield in a full attack, getting lesser penalties with Feats and even more attacks based on class. Id assume that's a factor as wellThey are very much not the only ones you get even more attacks with, as both Soldiers and Solarians get 3 attack full attacks with non-Small Arm/Operative weapons. Also anyone can dual-wield non-Operative Melee weapons because unlike Small Arms for guns Operative weapons aren't the only one-handed Melee weapons. And of course Kasatha, Skittermanders, any other 4+ armed races I'm not yet aware of, and anyone with 2 mechanical arms can dual-wield Long Arms or even Heavy Weapons. It's just that for all of these it doesn't necessarily give you any benefit besides the flexibility.
That said, as far as Operative's Quad-attack and the simple existence of Multi-weapon fighting, I'm pretty sure the reason those work the way they do at all is specifically because Small Arms and Operative weapons are so weak. It takes 2 hits to bring them up to par with a single shot from a stronger weapon, or the Operative's full Quad Attack to be on par with a normal Full Attack.
Actually math-wise Quad attack (with multiweapon-fighting) is nowbere near the max damage or DPR (against same KAC) of a Long arm or heavy weapon, By classes such Soldiers, Solarians and Mechanics.
Han Solo can get by with a pistol because in Star Wars a single hit with a pistol will drop a person. Starfinder is emulating things like "Doom", "Starship Troopers", and "Dungeons and Dragons", where bigger weapons are better.
Doom has some big bad late game weapons, but I'm not sure the comparison really fits because it doesn't have weapon progression like Starfinder does. Sure you'll eventually get a BFG, but your assault rifle is your assault rifle pretty much all game long.
I'd say the closest example to the way Starfinder does weapons is more like... Mass Effect 1. That game had a lot of tiers to their weaponry too that you were intended to regularly replace over time.
Yeah, good point for Operative melee weapons. As for 1st lvl melee options for everyone else. I disagree that there are only two. There are many times I have found from my 7+ games in Starfinder having a one-handed melee weapon extremely useful (for non-kasatha). Especially with how throwing weapons work in Starfinder, Str to hit and damage, it is better to buy and carry a returning starknife as your range weapon than a smallarm. So my biltz soldier carried said starknife and assault hammer, until I was able to upgrade to the longsword. Yeah, I could get better damage with 2 handed weapon, but versatility is also important.I see a lot of people advocating returning Starknives. Don't you frequently run into the issue of it not coming back to you, as it comes to the square you threw it from, not to you.
Only if you move. But, it returns before/at beginning of your next turn, so I move after I catch it (free action to catch it, if I recall correctly). Otherwise, if you move after throwing it, which would be odd to me (not counting forced to move), get called.
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Agreeing with the OP on thematic reasons. The Operative’s trick attack, its extra damage, debilitating tricks and variations thereof, and triple and quad attacks (so, a not-insignificant portion of what the Operative is able to do) are all contingent on you forgoing a large portion of the interesting weapons the game features in favor of knives, clubs, and pistols (and maybe sniper rifles).
So when you imagine your sneaky, skillsy character and decide that the Operative class is otherwise the best method of realizing that character’s abilities and you happen to envision him using something not in those specific categories, oh well? Sucks to be you? I guess all characters galaxy-wide who are “shadows, swift professionals, speedy, mobile, skilled, and witty” just like to limit themselves inexplicably to the same small selection of weapons.
*Sigh...*
One thing that 4E really missed the buck on is making Rogues, Sneak Attack, and pretty much all Rogue Attack powers exclusive to light blades, slings, and crossbows. Want to use a bow? Too bad. Want to use an axe or a flail? Don’t you realize that sneaky people never ever vary their weapon choice? What kind of badwrongfun are you trying to pull?
And love 5E though I do, they kept the same mistake as well, limiting sneak attack to finessable or ranged weapons. And I find it unfortunate and inappropriately limiting that Starfinder went from the Pathfinder/3X model of NOT arbitrarily deciding that just because “sneaky characters only using knives” makes sense to them that that limitation should be enforced for everyone else to the 4E/5E/Starfinder model of deciding “our sneaky guy’s weapons choices are everyone else’s choices, too”.
Yes, there’s a valid concern for that extra damage stacking with those other higher damage weapons. Okay, make Trick Attack’s contribution of extra damage be dependent on the weapon (it contributes less or maybe even none to higher damage weapons), so that we can at least still do the debilitating trick rider effects with pikes, hammers, whips, doshkos, staves, spears, rifles, etc. that we envision our otherwise Operative-y characters using. Maybe something similar for the extra attack (trip attack with operative and small arms at 8th, quad attack with operative and small arms and trip attack with anything else at 13th, or something).
Wouldn't Han be an Operative anyway, the class that basically specializes in pistols?
Would he? I must have missed his cloaking fields, true sight and all the other gimmicks.
Starfinder is emulating things like "Doom", "Starship Troopers", and "Dungeons and Dragons", where bigger weapons are better.
Starfinder is pretty much SW Saga with the serial numbers filed off.
As for Doom, ST and D&D... none of those have damage progression or useless pistols (well, D&D does have terrible pistols if you dig into the wacky gun rules in the various D&D appendices). It's certainly similar to D&D of course, since that forms the majority of both Saga and SF.
Is there anyone willing to bet against more and better operative weapons being introduced in future books?
I wouldn't be greatly surprised to see some sort of feat tax for operatives to use some other weapons either.
Is there anyone willing to bet against more and better operative weapons being introduced in future books?
There will almost inevitably be more weapons in future books. That's a given, especially since having a big pile of weapons is one of Starfinder's things.
But there are certain commonalities, like not having any advanced melee weapons with the operative special quality or having the majority of operative weapons be mechanically simple and it's hard to tell if those are merely constraints of the rulebook or actual design guidelines that we'll see persist in future updates.
Likewise the support for melee operative in general. Arguably the biggest strength is not having to deal with AoOs or cover, but a ranged operative can pick up an exploit at 6 that lets them attack without provoking.
Even damage is a bit of a struggle, given how much of an extra investment bonus melee damage is and trick attack's mechanics.
With that context in mind the state of operative weapons again almost makes sense, depending on whether or not this is a design choice or a matter of happenstance and book space.
Wouldn't Han be an Operative anyway, the class that basically specializes in pistols?Would he? I must have missed his cloaking fields, true sight and all the other gimmicks.
So some of the modular class features of the Operative, features that you're not forced to take, don't match the character of Han Solo. Big deal. There are enough other operative exploits that do that make me think the class is still a good way to represent him (or a character similar to him) in Starfinder.
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Small arms are weak because weapons are not treated as choice of character flavor, but as military equipment. In Pathfinder your weapon of choice was more quirk of the character rather than serious choice. You could pick a weapon for more sentimental reasons rather then rational ones. "Hmm I think axe fits this character more than sword" so you make that choice.
But in Starfinder, it is more military. A pistol is a sidearm. It exists because it is compact and it is easier to hide. A rifle is the actual main tool for warfare. Star Wars was pure fantasy, care bears in space rock throwing defeating imperial army. Starfinder can sometimes feel borderline Tom Clancy.
Yes, there’s a valid concern for that extra damage stacking with those other higher damage weapons. Okay, make Trick Attack’s contribution of extra damage be dependent on the weapon (it contributes less or maybe even none to higher damage weapons), so that we can at least still do the debilitating trick rider effects...
...honestly, I'm not sure the concern was as valid as they think. I mean, the Mechanic gets a similar (If slightly lesser. 7 dice vs 10 dice) boost that can be used on Any Energy Weapon and an energy heavy weapon adds a lot more effective damage than the 3 dice on a pistol (I mean, they get +10 flat from spec alone and that's slightly above 2 d8 so the weapon itself only needs to add +3.5 average damage which they most certainly do.)
That's on top of either being a full BAB class OR having a minion who can gun away with his own gun as well.
I think I'll run some math on a hypothetical 'If Operative's could use Sniper Rifles for Trick attack damage, would it outclass a soldier'
Edit: Alright, hypothetical ran!
It's actually still a LONG shot behind the Soldier. 69.3 DPR at level 20 vs the 51.87 of a normal Operative and the 124.74 of a full on marksman soldier.
I don't honestly see much reason to prevent operatives using sniper rifles. You lose out on the ability to shoot 4 weak dudes of a pistol in exchange for decently but not staggeringly superior single target damage.
Han's absolutely an Outlaw Envoy. (You could argue Ace Pilot but I think Outlaw fits better)
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Starfinder is pretty much SW Saga with the serial numbers filed off.
No. No it's really not.
It plays very differently in a lot of ways.