Hello, I have attempted to make the Bolt-Ace archetype of the gunslinger work once before. It was a bit of a disaster (part campaign, part stat rolls, part build), but I am still committed to the idea of a master of the crossbow.
There is no campaign selected yet, so looking for a generalized option, typically any non 3rd party is acceptable in our groups. Non PFS btw.
My new idea is to obviously play a Human (that free feat is almost mandatory it seems) and take the much maligned Hunter Class , mostly for the spells (Gravity Bow ), and for the aspects to make the Human more interesting.
My plan was as follows
DEX>WIS>Everything else
Human - MWK Light Crossbow (Underwater or crank), Sawback Lead Lined Machete.
A survival expert, skilled in wilderness travel and monster hunting. Designed around few powerful hits with special ammo and abilities.
Works with or without an animal companion (not sure if they are viable for ranged hunters).
1 Bolt Ace 1 - Rapid Reload (level) point Blank Shot (Human)
2 Hunter 2 (Vanilla, or Feral) - Spells
3 Hunter 2 Precise Shot (Hunter), Rapid Shot (level)
4 Bolt Ace 2
5 Bolt Ace 3 (level) Deadly Aim?
6 Bolt Ace 4
7 Bolt Ace 5 [Final level for BA] Gun training kicks in, as well as second BAB attack.
(Level) Vital Strike? Focused Shot? Winter Strike? Quickdraw? Evolved companion, Spirits gift?
8 Hunter 3? Something better?
Are there alternative races that can get up and running as quickly? Kitsune can provide beast shape, +DEX and +INT for -STR, and weapon Finesse for the cost of that Human Feat. They are more fun to play, but a lot less optimal and slow feat progression by quite a bit.
Is it worth continuing on with Hunter past lvl2? I know they mostly focus on Animal companion improvements (and companions are considered very sub optimal at the best of times), but get decent spells and more aspects.
or
Should I switch over to a fighter, or something similar to help with ranged crossbow combat, or melee alternatives. The Empty Quiver style is accessible by an Unarmed fighter, or a Monk. Alchemist is interesting, but getting a little MAD. Unchained rogue for TWF combat with Crossbow and Melee and occasional sneak attack. Divine Hunter (Paladin Archetype) is likely out as it is a front heavy class.
What are the classes best to drop into for a Hunter/Bolt Ace build?
Is there an alternative way to get gravity bow/lead blades/similar spells early?
Is there just a better arrangement of levels? Prestige that make sense (I couldn't find a lot of crossbow support there)?
thank you in advance for the help. Hopefully this can help other future Bolt-Ace multiclass builders.
I like Bolt Ace 5/Mutagen Fighter X myself. Dex to Damage, Lots of Dex, Lots of Fighter feats like specialization.
Another option you could do Is Bolt Ace 5/Inquisitor X. Bane your Bow, Lots of Skills, Spells like Divine Favor work wonders for both To hit and damage.
You can get UMD as a skill and get most the low-level spell wands for 750.
So just generally no to using Hunter then? I was hoping to avoid using UMD as my CHA would be my main dump stat, unless there is a way to use WIS for the skill.
Fighter certainly seems like it has good synergy with Bolt Ace, especially for feats and weapon/armor training, could be a good way to get medium armor on a DEX character.
I do not know if mixing Inquisitor and Hunter with Bolt Ace is ideal, and the only Inquisitor builds I have seen have been Hand Crossbow TWF with tail/Mutagen Arm builds to take advantage of the limited duration of Bane. I am not a huge fan of TWF crossbow builds like that.
I was hoping there was a way to make Hunter/Bolt Ace viable.
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So just generally no to using Hunter then? I was hoping to avoid using UMD as my CHA would be my main dump stat, unless there is a way to use WIS for the skill.
Fighter certainly seems like it has good synergy with Bolt Ace, especially for feats and weapon/armor training, could be a good way to get medium armor on a DEX character.
I do not know if mixing Inquisitor and Hunter with Bolt Ace is ideal, and the only Inquisitor builds I have seen have been Hand Crossbow TWF with tail/Mutagen Arm builds to take advantage of the limited duration of Bane. I am not a huge fan of TWF crossbow builds like that.
I was hoping there was a way to make Hunter/Bolt Ace viable.
Hunter is a class that is basically a Pet class where the hunter is more like the Feat and Spell Provider. It has some martial ability itself but depends heavily on flanking with the companion. When it comes to archery and teamwork feats there just are not enough teamwork feats worthwhile to make the dip even remotely good. All the other abilities of the class do not mess well with much multiclassing either. Typically the only Dips a hunter would take is Wild Child Brawler (keeps Animal at your HD level and lots of other goodies), Monk or Fighter. Because Hunter gets everything it could want by Level 16. THe last 4 levels tend to be dead levels and that is why people multiclass a hunter. But they tend to take a class that adds a lot more than they would get from Hunter.
If you are wanting UMD to go off Wisdom the trait Wisdom in the flesh is your go-to trait. Take dangerously Curious and Wisdom in the flesh and you are golden for Wisdom-based UMD checks with a +1 to it and trained class skill ranks.
I never said Inquisitor/Hunter AND bolt ace...that would be too much dipping. I was talking just Bolt Ace and Inquisitor. You can make builds without TWF. Those just get more DPR. But your damage with just a regular crossbow will be sufficient as well as be a good skills guy with some Divine casting and access to spell trigger/completion items without a UMD check. But if it is not up your ally cool beans, it is just a popular dip for Bane and the front end package of the inquisitor class.
In pathfinder Multiclassing tends to not be Ideal. With the additon of new stuff that is changing but there are classes that are not ideal for dipping and you would be much stronger staying a single class then dipping. Then there are other classes (Swashbuckler) who do better dipping than staying pure to the class. The later levels offer very little and you end up stronger dipping out the class.
A few good Classes to Dip into after 5 Levels of Bolt Ace are:
Fighter
Ranger
Slayer
Inquisitor
Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest
I feel the only thing you would get from the hunter class is a nifty mount, Precise Shot, and Gravity Bow a few times a day. To me, that is not enough worth a dip.
A few good Classes to Dip into after 5 Levels of Bolt Ace are:
Fighter
Ranger
Slayer
Inquisitor
Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest
What about Urban Barbarian / Bloodrager?
Are there other things you would recommend? :)
Bolt ace/swashbuckler might be an option, as both are strongly Dex-focused. Effectively free Weapon Finesse, while keeping full BAB, is a nice benefit; the inspired blade archetype can qualify for Fencing Grace with a single level dip (Dex to damage with a rapier, as well as a crossbow).
Brawler might be another option. Possibly with the snakebite striker archetype to pick up some Sneak Attack damage (again, while keeping full BAB). Being able to flurry with unarmed strikes or a nine-ring broadsword isn't bad, either.
Feral Hunter doesn't get an animal companion but does get the animal focus + wild shape.
You can also get some animal swarm action if you can find the feats for it.
Urban rager.
Hmm iDea I haven't explored before.
There is an item that allows crossbow to fire alchemy items.
If you splashed in alchemist, perhaps there is a build where splash damage +feral> loss of bab
If you want a cheese build you could do this;
For the first 2-3 levels go Fighter (Crossbowman) and grab Overwatch Style.
Then go Monk MoMS for your next lvl and grab Overwatch Vortex as your free style feat.
You can now fire up to 4 arrows as a full-round readied action, and at a very low level where most campaigns take place.
Alternatively you can go 2 levels of Monk and get it while spending less feats on prereqs but you will most likely want those feats anyways
You also get some unarmed strikes as a backup.
Then continue with crossbowman Fighter for more readied action fun.
Note:Wisdom in the Flesh can only be used with Str and Dex based skills, so you cannot use it with UMD.
Edit: another way to do this, if you were playing from lvl 1, take MoMS at lvl 1 and get Overwatch. Take the Heirloom Weapon trait to gain proficency with a crossbow at lvl 1.
Lvl 2 take a second lvl of MoMS and get Overwatch Vortex.
Lvl 3+ go crossbow class
Think of the trait as early access to crossbows. Use weight of fire instead of raw damage to be effective. As you gain levels in your crossbow class you will gain more damage for each shot.
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This doesn't work though because Overwatch Vortex isn't a style feat. Overwatch Style is a style feat, Overwatch Vortex is just a combat feat with a style feat as a prerequisite.
If you are planning on taking a 6 level casting class after bolt ace, I'd likely stick to it. There's a lot of mileage to be gotten out of a couple Full BAB classes stacked together though. Urban Bloodrager/Barbarian will get 4+con rounds of +2 attack and damage. You can take extra rage or a trait for more rage rounds. Medium (technically not full BAB, but just take the champion spirit for +1 attack) will get you +3 to damage on every attack. It also gets you access to a feat that bumps attack, damage and fort saves by 1, much better than just grabbing weapon focus. Add on Mutation warrior and at level 10 you're getting a mutagen for another +2 to attack and damage, then level 12 you get weapon training, and can easily spring for gloves of dueling at that point. Everything stacks so usage can be spread out through the day, or combined together for some high accuracy and damage. Medium even gets you a spell list to activate wands with, which, while it doesn't include gravity bow, it does include true strike, if you ever buy or find those specialty arrows that you really don't want to miss with. It also gives you UMD as a class skill.
Aside from that, I would say that inquisitor, warpriest or grenadier alchemist tend to be the best pairing with bolt ace that I've found. Hunter is doable, but I wouldn't consider it a great pair. Occultist could be a nice fit as well, considering it also can cast gravity bow, but I haven't looked into a ranged occultist enough to recommend it.
Any suggestions for prestige classes that might work after 5 levels of Bolt Ace? I usually don't consider them due to the benefits of sticking to one class, but for a bolt ace I would make an exception without hesitation.
Any suggestions for prestige classes that might work after 5 levels of Bolt Ace?
Sentinel of Abadar?
Thank you all for the great responses.
Hunter has the advantages of an animal companion (tanked up with evolutions or spirits) and able to debuff threats allowing a bolt ace breathing room. As well as Gravity bow/lead blade sans UMD, and with a WIS casting stat. It might not be as good as a full melee Hunter with Barbarian levels though, the few ranged teamwork feats would be far harder to proc.
I think grenadier alchemist with the odd dip into just vanilla fighter for feats/weapon/armor training, coupled with the trait Pragmatic activator can help with MAD. Gunslinger needs only a little grit, so WIS can be lower in favour of INT.
I am a little uncertain on when to take each class for best synergy, Bolt ace at lvl 1 gets you a lot of gold and a MWK weapon, Alchemists shine at early levels for decent bombs vs touch. And the grenadier 2nd level ability can make for some high damage shots. 4th level for explosive missile (coupled with a magical crossbow, coupled with grenadiers hybridized alchemical weapons (+INT to dmg), coupled with DEX to DMG, coupled with UMD gravity bow, coupled with Bane arrows, plus mutagen, plus the various ranged feats is one hell of a single shot, especially following a true strike potion the previous round).
Would explosive missile and Alchemical weapon +INT's to damage stack here? I'm thinking probably not.
Human would be great for the extra starting feat, but would a kitsune with Keen kitsune (+DEX, +INT, -STR), and Natural finesse (Free weapon finesse) work as well with some feat juggling? Bolt ace is tricky to get online quickly and still make the multiclass relevant before entering mid game range.
I am Thinking
Bolt Ace 1, Grenadier 1, Grenadier 2, Bolt ace 2-5, grenadier 3+
For levels of Warpriest of Abadar, and one feat into Additional Traits (Magical Knack and Fate's Favored).
Any good builds for bolt-ace grenadier out there that come online before very late game ranges?
And any word on stacking +INT and +DEX to one attack?
Any good builds for bolt-ace grenadier out there that come online before very late game ranges?
And any word on stacking +INT and +DEX to one attack?
Anyone?