Animate Dead / Create Undead / Greater C.U. - HD is a poor metric


Magic and Spells

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

HD is a poor metric of monster power. So why do create undead and greater create undead use HD as a blanket way of generating costs?

I suggested a full fix for this problem in KQ #7, but as discussed back in the Wizard/Sorceror playtest forums, that's a bit drastic and a bit of a space-hogging fix for Pathfinder. Therefore, I suggest the following:

Create Undead and Greater Create Undead become nearly blank. Then, in the Bestiary entry for each type of creatable undead, specify exactly what the caster level and costs required for that undead is.

Animate Dead is probably okay. Zombies and Skeletons have very few special powers, so HD is a decent metric of their power.


Ross Byers wrote:

HD is a poor metric of monster power. So why do create undead and greater create undead use HD as a blanket way of generating costs?

I suggested a full fix for this problem in KQ #7, but as discussed back in the Wizard/Sorceror playtest forums, that's a bit drastic and a bit of a space-hogging fix for Pathfinder. Therefore, I suggest the following:

Create Undead and Greater Create Undead become nearly blank. Then, in the Bestiary entry for each type of creatable undead, specify exactly what the caster level and costs required for that undead is.

Animate Dead is probably okay. Zombies and Skeletons have very few special powers, so HD is a decent metric of their power.

Zombie Hydra are still too burly for the HD cost, and in fact, are a textbook example of why it doesn't work quite so well, due to hydra's ability to bite with all heads as a standard attack. This may speak to a problem with the hydra, rather than a problem with zombies and skeletons, however. In general, I think that is probably a resonable solution to undead, barring a more comprehensive overhaul like your KQ article.

Paizo Employee Director of Games

The problem here is that undead HD do not scale like any other creatures (due to their lack of HP bonus due to Con). We are fixing this by adjusting the way undead HD, HP, and bonuses work.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I still think that's only part of the problem. A Spectre costs less to make than a Mummy, despite having a higher CR. Making undead HD scale with Charisma means the mummy gets an extra 2 HP over the Spectre, but that really doesn't equalize the issue.

This might be fixable by, for instance, increasing the Mummy's Charisma to make it tougher in order to compensate for the spectre's abilities, but that's really changing the Mummy's CR, not dealing with the imbalance.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Ross Byers wrote:

I still think that's only part of the problem. A Spectre costs less to make than a Mummy, despite having a higher CR. Making undead HD scale with Charisma means the mummy gets an extra 2 HP over the Spectre, but that really doesn't equalize the issue.

This might be fixable by, for instance, increasing the Mummy's Charisma to make it tougher in order to compensate for the spectre's abilities, but that's really changing the Mummy's CR, not dealing with the imbalance.

Ross, I loved your KQ article on crafting undead and like your suggestions in this thread as well. However, could there be a simpler approach to fixing these spells (creat undead and greater)? Based on your statement above, what about just changing the requirements to create different undead with these spells and/or adjusting a few undead CRs?

I don't know if this is the right answer, but it does seem to be an answer that could fix the issues with the lease amount of change. I'll leave it to you for specific suggestions, since I know you're way more familar with the undead creation rules now, and it's not something I feel like investing the time in right now to figure out to be honest.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

The problem with adjusting CRs is that what we'd have to do is make it so that any time a (creatable) undead has more HD, it also has a higher CR. I don't like this plan because it ties the hands of the developers.

All I'm looking for is spelling out a specific cost for each undead type, so that it can be chosen appropriately. Heck, there are only 8 entries to be made. Just add it to the table in the spell description, and if more undead are written later that can be made with Create Undead, add the cost to their entry, since you'd have to specify that they can be created by the spell anyway.

I'd also like a way to specify that, for instance, creating a mummy has nothing to do with brackish water. But I'd settle for just specific costs in the interests of space.

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